Sweden's pandemic experiment ends amid spiking coronavirus cases

[balo]

On 1/6/2021 at 12:00 AM, balo said:

Today Sweden will reach 9000 deaths since the pandemic started in March

 

10000 most likely end of next week. 
 

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 1/9/2021 at 3:58 PM, EdrigoSalvadore said:

I believe a lot of those cases came from blowing people lungs up with ventilators, and treating them poorly (not feeding the patients enough nutrition, and giving them insane amounts of anesthetic). We have a lot of elderly with heart diseases and diabetic as well. If we compare the deaths to a average year in Sweden, is it barely any higher. Cheers

 

I very much doubt that mortality is normal at the moment in Sweden.

In neighboring Denmark, excess mortality is clearly showing and is about 15% above the seasonal average.

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by ExpatOilWorker

[cooked]

2 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

I very much doubt that mortality is normal at the moment in Sweden.

In neighboring Denmark, excess mortality is clearly showing and is about 15% above the seasonal average.

 

This kind of variation is normal. Maybe it would be nice to be able to postpone deaths to a warmer time of the year or to another year but the panic induced by using the word 'Covid' instead of 'cyclically recurring respiratory diseases among older people' is uncalled for. In some countries the average age of people dying of covid is higher than the normal life expectancy for that country.

[Thomas J]

 

Sweden currently ranks 23rd in the world in terms of Coronavirus infections per million. Less than Belgium, Switzerland, and the Netherlands and almost equal to Portugal,  But somehow what those countries did is correct and what Sweden did is wrong.  Maybe the only thing proved is the impossibility of measures to limit the spread of Covid.  For decades man has attempted to prevent the spread of diseases such as the Flu. How has that worked out?  9% of the world on average still gets the flu each and every year. Even assuming the hypothetical non reality that somehow a country can impose measures that brings its coronavirus infection rate to Zero.  Then what?  Maintain those measures for all eternity or until the remainder of the world also achieves zero cases.  As soon as people start circulating again, diseases start to spread. 

 

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?

 

 

 

 

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

 

Sweden currently ranks 23rd in the world in terms of Coronavirus infections per million. Less than Belgium, Switzerland, and the Netherlands and almost equal to Portugal,  But somehow what those countries did is correct and what Sweden did is wrong.  Maybe the only thing proved is the impossibility of measures to limit the spread of Covid.  For decades man has attempted to prevent the spread of diseases such as the Flu. How has that worked out?  9% of the world on average still gets the flu each and every year. Even assuming the hypothetical non reality that somehow a country can impose measures that brings its coronavirus infection rate to Zero.  Then what?  Maintain those measures for all eternity or until the remainder of the world also achieves zero cases.  As soon as people start circulating again, diseases start to spread. 

 

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?

 

 

 

 

You need to compare Sweden to it's nearest neighbors.  If you do that, you'll see Sweden failed with their experiment miserably.  Their neighbors did much better, even economically with their lock downs.

[cooked]

22 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

You need to compare Sweden to it's nearest neighbors.  If you do that, you'll see Sweden failed with their experiment miserably.  Their neighbors did much better, even economically with their lock downs.

You are neither addressing the point of the post nor what 'failing miserably' means. All cause mortality in Sweden is about the same as in previous years. There's more Covid, yes, less 'flu. 

[Patong2021]

57 minutes ago, cooked said:

You are neither addressing the point of the post nor what 'failing miserably' means. All cause mortality in Sweden is about the same as in previous years. There's more Covid, yes, less 'flu. 

 Mr. Expert did you know that Sweden has different approach to elder care? Emphasis is on keeping elderly in their own home. A helper is sent to help care. In France, Italy, UK, old people go to care home. 4 or more to a room if poor. In the elder home, because so many vulnerable people are put so close together and hygiene is not good, easy for the elderly to become infected.  Same reason why there is a trend in new and refit of hospital to make individual rooms. This is for infection control. Sweden was able to keep its old people away from risk for long time.  If Sweden had stored its elderly like they do in America,  UK, many more Swedish old people would be dead.

[Thomas J]

23 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

You need to compare Sweden to it's nearest neighbors.  If you do that, you'll see Sweden failed with their experiment miserably.  Their neighbors did much better, even economically with their lock downs.

That makes NO SENSE  People are people.  The fact that people in 23 other countries have higher covid infection rates if it proves anything, it proves that lockdowns, masks, quarantines etc had minimal impact on stopping the spread of Covid.  If they did, their infection rates would be lower and Swedens would be exponentially higher. 

[Jeffr2]

23 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

That makes NO SENSE  People are people.  The fact that people in 23 other countries have higher covid infection rates if it proves anything, it proves that lockdowns, masks, quarantines etc had minimal impact on stopping the spread of Covid.  If they did, their infection rates would be lower and Swedens would be exponentially higher. 

People are not people. Do you know why Africa has done so much better?

 

Compare Sweden to it's nearest neighborhoods. You'll see the difference immediately and why their experiment failed. As they admit.

[rabas]

17 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

That makes NO SENSE  People are people.  The fact that people in 23 other countries have higher covid infection rates if it proves anything, it proves that lockdowns, masks, quarantines etc had minimal impact on stopping the spread of Covid.  If they did, their infection rates would be lower and Swedens would be exponentially higher. 

Using your logic, Sweden was worse than 170+ countries with people. Clearly their system failed.

 

All factors make a difference including seasonal weather, geography, population density, and social structure. The most accurate comparison is with Sweden's neighbours.

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, rabas said:

Using your logic, Sweden was worse than 170+ countries with people. Clearly their system failed.

 

All factors make a difference including seasonal weather, geography, population density, and social structure. The most accurate comparison is with Sweden's neighbours.

And the populations age. Africa did better because it's population is very young.

[Thomas J]

6 minutes ago, rabas said:

Using your logic, Sweden was worse than 170+ countries with people. Clearly their system failed.

Yes however that also means that 23 other countries Failed including most of Europe and the USA.  Again you are using convoluted logic.  If what other countries did was effective their Covid rates would be dramatically lower.  They are not.  If what Sweden did was such a failure (compared to other countries) Its covid rate would be exponentially higher.  It is not.  If there is a failure it is that Masks, Quarantines, Hand Washing, Social Isolation, Contact Tracing etc. FAILED to have any statistically meaningful impact compared to Sweden.  Sweden's approach by your definition may have failed but that just means it was no different than the other countries as well. 

[rabas]

1 minute ago, Thomas J said:

Yes however that also means that 23 other countries Failed including most of Europe and the USA.  Again you are using convoluted logic.  If what other countries did was effective their Covid rates would be dramatically lower.  They are not.  If what Sweden did was such a failure (compared to other countries) Its covid rate would be exponentially higher.  It is not.  If there is a failure it is that Masks, Quarantines, Hand Washing, Social Isolation, Contact Tracing etc. FAILED to have any statistically meaningful impact compared to Sweden.  Sweden's approach by your definition may have failed but that just means it was no different than the other countries as well. 

 

If you read carefully, I said that I am using your convoluted logic to show why it does not work.

[Thomas J]

12 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

People are not people. Do you know why Africa has done so much better?

Yes people are people.  I did not say that geography, temperature, population density did not have an effect but the population density of Portugal and Sweden is about the same 114 vs 111 people per KM.  Quess what they are ranked 23 and 24 in the world in terms of Covid infection rates.  Also you are foolish if you think that the Covid reporting from many African countries is at all accurate.  If you test, you find Covid.  Do you really think there is much testing in Botswana or Tanzania.  

[Jeffr2]

13 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Yes people are people.  I did not say that geography, temperature, population density did not have an effect but the population density of Portugal and Sweden is about the same 114 vs 111 people per KM.  Quess what they are ranked 23 and 24 in the world in terms of Covid infection rates.  Also you are foolish if you think that the Covid reporting from many African countries is at all accurate.  If you test, you find Covid.  Do you really think there is much testing in Botswana or Tanzania.  

I was in Africa during the cv19 outbreak.

 

Comparing Sweden to Portugal is ridiculous. Just like trying to compare the US to Italy. Doesn't make sense.

[Thomas J]

13 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Comparing Sweden to Portugal is ridiculous. Just like trying to compare the US to Italy. Doesn't make sense.

I guess we will agree to disagree.  The fact remains, Sweden's rate of infection is not materially different than those countries that chose to impose numerous covid prevention techniques.  Just like comparing Bangkok, to Udon Thani is flawed because of the population density difference comparing Sweden to Denmark and Norway is also flawed.  Denmark has a covid infection rate of 31,000 per million compared to Sweden's 48,000 per million.  So if imposing strict Covid measures was effective using neighboring countries, At best it had only a marginal effect in limiting the spread of the virus.  I still say, it is not unreasonable to look at Belgium, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Portugal, and numerous other countries and say, Swedens rate was not worse and in many comparisons better.  If there policy was so horrible their rate of infection should have been exponentially higher and it was not. 

[Jeffr2]

14 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I guess we will agree to disagree.  The fact remains, Sweden's rate of infection is not materially different than those countries that chose to impose numerous covid prevention techniques.  Just like comparing Bangkok, to Udon Thani is flawed because of the population density difference comparing Sweden to Denmark and Norway is also flawed.  Denmark has a covid infection rate of 31,000 per million compared to Sweden's 48,000 per million.  So if imposing strict Covid measures was effective using neighboring countries, At best it had only a marginal effect in limiting the spread of the virus.  I still say, it is not unreasonable to look at Belgium, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Portugal, and numerous other countries and say, Swedens rate was not worse and in many comparisons better.  If there policy was so horrible their rate of infection should have been exponentially higher and it was not. 

You're not putting out the correct facts.  They are doing MUCH worse than their neighbors.

 

Economically:

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-sweden-gdp-falls-8pc-in-q2-worse-nordic-neighbors-2020-8

 

Quote

 

Sweden's GDP fell 8.6% during the second quarter of the year, according to its statistics body.

 

The fall is sharper than its neighbors — Denmark registered a 7.4% fall, and Finland a 3.2% fall. Statistics suggest Norway also fared better than Sweden.

 

 

And in terms of deaths.  As the article says, compare them to countries like them, not the UK, Portugal, etc, etc, etc.

 

Quote

Its death rate was once one of the world's highest, and is now still significantly higher than its neighbours: more than five times Denmark's, more than 11 times Norway's, and around 10 times Finland's.

 

 

[Jeffr2]

They are even admitting they were wrong.

 

 

[balo]

As a Norwegian I can confirm that Sweden's experiment failed.

But we are now more worried about our other neighbor Denmark, the infection rate is now very high and more than 1600 deaths.   Norway and Denmark were similar in the numbers , but November/December changed that to the worse.  Denmark is now almost in a  lockdown, unlike Norway.

Yes it's getting stricter over here as well, but I guess we can't complain with less than 500 deaths reported since the pandemic started.   

 

[Jeffr2]

9 hours ago, balo said:

As a Norwegian I can confirm that Sweden's experiment failed.

But we are now more worried about our other neighbor Denmark, the infection rate is now very high and more than 1600 deaths.   Norway and Denmark were similar in the numbers , but November/December changed that to the worse.  Denmark is now almost in a  lockdown, unlike Norway.

Yes it's getting stricter over here as well, but I guess we can't complain with less than 500 deaths reported since the pandemic started.   

 

Best of luck to you!  I hear Belgium is in bad shape also.

 

Crazy times.

[Rimmer]

A misleading post and a reply have been removed:

 

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[ExpatOilWorker]

On 1/12/2021 at 9:29 PM, balo said:

As a Norwegian I can confirm that Sweden's experiment failed.

But we are now more worried about our other neighbor Denmark, the infection rate is now very high and more than 1600 deaths.   Norway and Denmark were similar in the numbers , but November/December changed that to the worse.  Denmark is now almost in a  lockdown, unlike Norway.

Yes it's getting stricter over here as well, but I guess we can't complain with less than 500 deaths reported since the pandemic started.   

 

How serious is the below?

Anything in the Norwegian press?

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1384728/Covid-vaccine-latest-side-effects-Pfizer-jab-23-dead-Norway-coronavirus-update

 

[balo]

9 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

How serious is the below?

Anything in the Norwegian press?

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1384728/Covid-vaccine-latest-side-effects-Pfizer-jab-23-dead-Norway-coronavirus-update

 

Yes some of the oldest and weakest  patients died a few days after the vaccine, but the question remains if they would have died anyway.   I think this is nothing to worry about.    

[Jeffr2]

11 hours ago, balo said:

Yes some of the oldest and weakest  patients died a few days after the vaccine, but the question remains if they would have died anyway.   I think this is nothing to worry about.    

Yeah, just read this also.  Some 26 have died.  Almost all were very old, most over 80.  And all were very sick and frail.  I think one death happened in Italy also, but again, very old and very sick.

[placeholder]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:42 PM, Airalee said:

The increase in deaths (the important thing) and hospitalizations was insignificant to the increase in the number of cases.  That was my point then and is my point now.  At least I’m consistent.

 

You attribute that to “better care”.  That’s a good thing.  I see good news in the charts, you see bad news.  
 

Deaths trending downwards.  Deaths still a much smaller percentage of cases during the second wave than the first wave.

 

I say that’s a good thing.  .
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How's it looking now?

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

How's it looking now?

Compared to the increase in cases, I’d say it’s looking pretty good.  Seems to parallel the news I have read that the 2nd wave and new strains are much more contagious but not as deadly as the original.

 

 

[rabas]

42 minutes ago, Airalee said:

Compared to the increase in cases, I’d say it’s looking pretty good.  Seems to parallel the news I have read that the 2nd wave and new strains are much more contagious but not as deadly as the original.

 

 

 

More death is not good. I suspect fewer first wave cases may relate to a lower level of test capability in the early days.

 

I haven't seen anything about milder strains but there's this today  BBC: Coronavirus: UK variant 'may be more deadly'

 

[Scott]

There is an entire section of the forum for Covid-19.

 

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