Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[vogie]

34 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

As I wrote above: I support the Scottish people in their cause same as the British people had their Brexit vote. If you consider that “nasty Nationalism” then I guess we both support nasty Nationalism according to your definition. 

You are supporting the Nationalist party and not the Scots and we don't have to look too far back in history to realise the impact that nationalism can have on Europe never mind Scotland.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

You are supporting the Nationalist party and not the Scots and we don't have to look too far back in history to realise the impact that nationalism can have on Europe never mind Scotland.

 

We just need to look back to 2015 and see how much damage it has done, and continues to do. Thankfully it appears that most Scots continue to reject small minded nationalism for a much more appealing internationalism. 

[bkkcanuck8]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

I don't have any faith in polls, but I know you stand by them, especially when they give you the answer you so desperately seek. You cannot keep making excuses just because they don't tally with your party line.

There is only one way to put the poll debate to the test... make it official. 

 

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

You are supporting the Nationalist party and not the Scots and we don't have to look too far back in history to realise the impact that nationalism can have on Europe never mind Scotland.

And yet that Nationalist Party supports joining the EU... not exactly the nationalism you are trying to 'hint' at.

[welovesundaysatspace]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

You are supporting the Nationalist party and not the Scots

Wrong. 
 

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

and we don't have to look too far back in history to realise the impact that nationalism can have on Europe never mind Scotland.

You Brexiteers really love those WWII references. 

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

I don't have any faith in polls, but I know you stand by them, especially when they give you the answer you so desperately seek. You cannot keep making excuses just because they don't tally with your party line.

 

I don't have a party line as I am not in any political party. 

 

But you seem eminently capable of running away from difficult questions, such as why, if the SNP is as dire as you say, are they expected to gain a majority in the next Scottish Parliament? 

[welovesundaysatspace]

11 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

What are you talking about? We didn't have a referendum on leaving the EU every 4 years. We had one to join the EEC in 1975 and one to leave the EU in 2016, 41 years later.

There you go. The Scottish had a referendum on remaining part of the EU member UK, and they now want a referendum on leaving the non-EU member UK. 
 

11 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

I'd be happy to adhere to such a precedent and give Scotland another vote to leave in 2055. 

It doesn’t matter what you would be happy to do. 

[JonnyF]

28 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Have you reversed your opinion? In your eyes, are we no longer an insignificant and historically bitter people who you would be glad to see the back of? 

 

Wishing to join a successful and respected union of 27 other nations is hardly isolationist; having the second highest covid death rate in the world is nothing to be proud of. 

 

And Brexit still seems only to be successful in the eyes of those who backed it. 

 

I have always held the opinion that the 2014 vote should be respected. Nothing new there. I would have quite liked Scotland to leave but the vote went the other way and I respect that. I wouldn't want to lower myself to the level of Remainers by demanding a people's vote, second referendum or whatever they called it just to try and overturn the vote.

 

The failing EU won't let you in anyway, I would have thought you would have realized that by now. Even if they did it would take at least a decade, so you'll have a decade of isolationism to look forward. A decade during which time you will have no trade deal with the EU or the UK, isolated up there in the North sea, further ravaging your educational institutions, economy, healthcare and drugs problems all the while having monetary policy dictated to you by the bank of England. Sounds like a great plan.

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

There you go. The Scottish had a referendum on remaining part of the EU member UK, and they now want a referendum on leaving the non-EU member UK. 

 

Nonsense. 

 

It's like saying they had a vote on leaving Pre-Covid UK, now they want a vote on leaving Post-Covid UK. A vapid argument which only highlights your desperation to legitimize running the vote again because you didn't like the result the first time.

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

We just need to look back to 2015 and see how much damage it has done, and continues to do. Thankfully it appears that most Scots continue to reject small minded nationalism for a much more appealing internationalism. 

Yes an independent Scotland, now what does that exactly mean if they are ever unlucky enough to join the EU, I won't say again because you were never in it.

"Scotland has 59 Out of 650 MPs in Westminster, so 9%, if Scotland joined the EU it would have 6 out of 711 MEPs so 0.9%.

What is independent about that?

Scotland in the EU would be told what to do and expected to it," as well as having to pay them for the honour of doing it, and don't forget giving all your fish to them, yeah, the Scots are going to fall for that little scam.????????????

 

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Wrong. 
 

You Brexiteers really love those WWII references. 

 

12 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Wrong. 
 

You Brexiteers really love those WWII references. 

So do you support Scottish Nationalism, yes or no?

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Yes an independent Scotland, now what does that exactly mean if they are ever unlucky enough to join the EU, I won't say again because you were never in it.

"Scotland has 59 Out of 650 MPs in Westminster, so 9%, if Scotland joined the EU it would have 6 out of 711 MEPs so 0.9%.

What is independent about that?

Scotland in the EU would be told what to do and expected to it," as well as having to pay them for the honour of doing it, and don't forget giving all your fish to them, yeah, the Scots are going to fall for that little scam.????????????

 

 

Christine Jardine, MP for Edinburgh West, asked a question at PMQs on behalf of a constituent. Rather than address her question, the PM ignored it and ranted on about the SNP and how Scotland does well under Barnett etc. 

 

Unfortunately, our incpmpetent and corrupt PM didn't realise that Jardine is a LibDem; he just heard a Scottish voice and starting ranting like the useless fool he truly is. 

 

Yes, Vogie, who would not want to be part of that mother of parliaments. 

 

For clarity, are fish important again? I know Brexiteers said they were important before Brexit, but since the start of the year we have been told that fish are not important. Are they back in favour once again?

[bkkcanuck8]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes an independent Scotland, now what does that exactly mean if they are ever unlucky enough to join the EU, I won't say again because you were never in it.

"Scotland has 59 Out of 650 MPs in Westminster, so 9%, if Scotland joined the EU it would have 6 out of 711 MEPs so 0.9%.

What is independent about that?

Scotland in the EU would be told what to do and expected to it," as well as having to pay them for the honour of doing it, and don't forget giving all your fish to them, yeah, the Scots are going to fall for that little scam.????????????

 

More powers would rest with Scotland as part of the EU than as part of the UK.

[welovesundaysatspace]

6 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Nonsense. 

 

It's like saying they had a vote on leaving Pre-Covid UK, now they want a vote on leaving Post-Covid UK. A vapid argument which only highlights your desperation to legitimize running the vote again because you didn't like the result the first time.

This is not about me. Like it is not about you. That’s your problem. You want to impose your opinion on the Scottish. Unfortunately it’s their business, so yes, if they want to vote pre- and post-Covid that’s also up to them, same as it was up to the U.K. to have as many referendums as they like. 

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I don't have a party line as I am not in any political party. 

 

But you seem eminently capable of running away from difficult questions, such as why, if the SNP is as dire as you say, are they expected to gain a majority in the next Scottish Parliament? 

I would have thought that was so obvious, and just for the record you have never asked me that question, another case of being economical with the truth.

At the moment the opposition are hardly a force to be reckoned with, trust me, it is not because the SNP are good, no matter what they tell their supporters. They are liars and not allegedly anymore, either Salmond or Sturgeon are lying, would that be a fair comment RR.

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

I would have thought that was so obvious, and just for the record you have never asked me that question, another case of being economical with the truth.

 

I beg to differ.

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

That could be one interpretation, however it would be very hard to explain the ongoing popularity of the SNP if it were true. 14 years in government and still head and shoulders above the opposition yet they are failing in their remit? What are we, masochists? 

 

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

At the moment the opposition are hardly a force to be reckoned with, trust me, it is not because the SNP are good, no matter what they tell their supporters. They are liars and not allegedly anymore, either Salmond or Sturgeon are lying, would that be a fair comment RR.

 

So their offering is better than the alternatives on offer? Good that we are in agreement there. I assume you are fully backing the independence movement, now that you can see that the alternative is truly dire?

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Christine Jardine, MP for Edinburgh West, asked a question at PMQs on behalf of a constituent. Rather than address her question, the PM ignored it and ranted on about the SNP and how Scotland does well under Barnett etc. 

 

Unfortunately, our incpmpetent and corrupt PM didn't realise that Jardine is a LibDem; he just heard a Scottish voice and starting ranting like the useless fool he truly is. 

 

Yes, Vogie, who would not want to be part of that mother of parliaments. 

 

For clarity, are fish important again? I know Brexiteers said they were important before Brexit, but since the start of the year we have been told that fish are not important. Are they back in favour once again?

Yes, Vogie, who would not want to be part of that mother of parliaments. 

 

I must emphasise RR, it is not up to you, it is up to the majority and this lady quite deftly puts it.

 

 

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I beg to differ.

 

 

So their offering is better than the alternatives on offer? Good that we are in agreement there. I assume you are fully backing the independence movement, now that you can see that the alternative is truly dire?

The incumbent SNP is dire too, that is how bad Scottish politics is at this present time and you seem to be endorsing it.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

The incumbent SNP is dire too, that is how bad Scottish politics is at this present time and you seem to be endorsing it.

 

Don't skip by without, firstly, acknowledging that you incorrectly accused me of falsehood. 

 

20 minutes ago, vogie said:

another case of being economical with the truth.

 

But now it is Scottish politics and not Northern British politics? You really are one for the flip flop, aren't you?

 

Fish are important / not important / important.

Scotland is not a country / is a country.

Polls are worthless / good. 

 

To paraphrase Gorucho Marx, these are Vogie's opinions, but he has others if need be. 

 

[JonnyF]

17 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

This is not about me. Like it is not about you. That’s your problem. You want to impose your opinion on the Scottish. Unfortunately it’s their business, so yes, if they want to vote pre- and post-Covid that’s also up to them, same as it was up to the U.K. to have as many referendums as they like. 

 

Well I would argue that as a UK citizen it is partly about me since it affects my country. But no, I don't want to impose my opinion on the Scottish. I offer my opinion on ThaiVisa because it is a internet forum and discussions and offering one's opinion is what they are for. How can I impose my opinion on the Scots when I am cannot vote on Scottish Independence? I can only offer my opinion, not impose it.

 

The decision should be for the Scottish and indeed it was. I would have liked them to leave the UK (I consider them a financial burden and an increasingly negative, pernicious influence) but they decided to stay by 55/45 in 2014. Nothing to do with my opinion. I am just saying the vote should be respected and not re-run every time something changes such as Brexit, Covid, a change in government, a particularly cold winter or whatever asinine reasons the losing side dreams up. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

33 minutes ago, vogie said:

So do you support Scottish Nationalism, yes or no?

No, I don’t. It’s nothing I’m interested in or have much knowledge about. 
 

I do support the sovereignty of the Scottish people, same as the British claimed theirs when they had another referendum without other EU countries shouting “no, you can’t.”

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Don't skip by without, firstly, acknowledging that you incorrectly accused me of falsehood. 

 

 

But now it is Scottish politics and not Northern British politics? You really are one for the flip flop, aren't you?

 

Fish are important / not important / important.

Scotland is not a country / is a country.

Polls are worthless / good. 

 

To paraphrase Gorucho Marx, these are Vogie's opinions, but he has others if need be. 

 

RRs right to reply is, don't reply because I haven't got answer, I understand RR, you do it regularly

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

No, I don’t. It’s nothing I’m interested in or have much knowledge about. 
 

I do support the sovereignty of the Scottish people, same as the British claimed theirs when they had another referendum without other EU countries shouting “no, you can’t.”

You don't seem to have much knowledge about the differences between the UK and the EU either, otherwise you'd realize why the UK didn't need permission from the EU to leave the bloc.

 

Frankly you strike me as someone who just enjoys arguing even if they have little stake in, or knowledge of the subject in hand.

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Well I would argue that as a UK citizen it is partly about me since it affects my country.

I guess some Polish or Italians would have argued the same when it came to the UK voting about something that affected the EU. 
 

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I am just saying the vote should be respected and not re-run every time something changes such as Brexit, Covid, a change in government, a particularly cold winter or whatever asinine reasons the losing side dreams up. 

You’re entitled to have that opinion. All I’m saying is that it’s up to the Scottish to decide whether they agree with your opinion or whether they want to decide themselves when and how often to vote on a matter. 
 

And it’s really not that scandalous to disagree with you. Imagine Boris said he will remain in power for 40 years because “the vote should be respected and not re-run every time something changes”.

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You don't seem to have much knowledge about the differences between the UK and the EU either, otherwise you'd realize why the UK didn't need permission from the EU to leave the bloc.

I do realize that the UK didn’t need permission from the EU because the EU let’s its member states decide their fate freely themselves, whereas the UK imposes on its member states to have a say in it. 

 

 

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

No, I don’t. It’s nothing I’m interested in or have much knowledge about. 
 

I do support the sovereignty of the Scottish people, same as the British claimed theirs when they had another referendum without other EU countries shouting “no, you can’t.”

If you supported the Scots and not the SNP you would realise that the Scots have had a referendum and they were very content to remain in our union. That's the way the cookie crumbles I'm afraid, you can please some of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time, it is what it is, it is a done deal, c'est la vie.????

[cjinchiangrai]

Brexit is working so well that you want to double down? A really dumb idea but up to you. 

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Do you support all forms of Nationalism?

Anything on the post in stead of a deflection?

[JonnyF]

11 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

And it’s really not that scandalous to disagree with you. Imagine Boris said he will remain in power for 40 years because “the vote should be respected and not re-run every time something changes”.

 

I was assuming you knew the difference between general elections and 'one off' or 'once in a generation'  Referendums.

 

It's not really practical to have votes on issues such leaving the EU and rejoining the EU every 4 years. Otherwise we might have voted to rejoin the EU before we'd actually left. If the vote kept swinging one way then the other, then it wouldn't be possible to leave and rejoin the EU every 5 years.

 

That's why they tend to happen once in a generation, coincidentally exactly as stated by the Scottish government in it's white paper prior to the vote on Scottish Independence.

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#:~:text=Ahead of that referendum%2C the,better direction for our nation".

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

If you supported the Scots and not the SNP you would realise that the Scots have had a referendum and they were very content to remain in our union.

If you supported the Scots, you would let them decide themselves how many referendums they want to have. 
 

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

That's the way the cookie crumbles I'm afraid, you can please some of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time, it is what it is, it is a done deal, c'est la vie.????

That’s what your imperialistic British attitude wishes. Let’s see what reality brings. 
 

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

If you supported the Scots, you would let them decide themselves how many referendums they want to have. 
 

That’s what your imperialistic British attitude wishes. Let’s see what reality brings. 
 

 

We don't live in a neverendum country, the Scots have decided and to put the tin hat on it, their leaders and deputy leaders stated it would be "a once in a lifetime opportunity" so knock me down with a feather Trevor.

 

But I am sure they will be extremely gratefull of your support, even though it didn't start till after the Brexit vote.