All this bickering about Newcastle. Let the Jocks go and bring back Georgie Hadrian and his crew to refurbish the wall. The dole offices will be empty.....????

43 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Let them go if they want but where does it end?  Will Yorkshire start asking for self government, then West Yorkshire?

 

To be fair I'd have no problem if they really want independence as long as they understand that forming any alliance with countries likely to threaten the UK will not be tolerated. Who knows what could happen in the future? Could Faslane become 'Faslane-ski'?

 

So independence but approval required from rUK about the decisions we take in the future? Aye, good one...

54 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

To be fair that is the same for England.

 

But Scotland isn't responsible for inflicting the nasty party on the UK. If the English electorate wants to continue to be fleeced dry by a small number of corrupt elites, that's their choice to make, but more and more, the Scots have had enough. 

20 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Firstly they did have one not so long ago and voted to remain.

 

How ironic coming from a Dutchman that his country has

a referendum the result is totally ignored.

 

Calling the kettle black for sure.

I am sure we will  at some point. It isn't all happy clappers in Europe and countries are being invaded from within.

Not as ironic as a Brexiteers who denies other the right to vote. Seems you guys are scared that your vote to leave the EU means you will be seen as the guys in history that planted the seeds that destroyed the union.

 

You guys are big hypocrites, to say that the Scots should stay even though the whole basis has changed. Just accept that by going out of the EU you put a bomb under your own union. Its so hard to accept that you shiver in fear that the Scots might leave the union leaving the UK with less economic power and a smaller market still. 

 

Just let the Scots decide and be done with it. Let both sides make a case for stay or go and let the public decide. That is what Brexit was. Later people can think back if they did it right or not but let them vote.

 

As for Dutch politics not see how this has any bearing on it besides sour grapes. You seem to bring it up a lot while I am not at the least concerned about it. It was an advising referendum not a binding one. Different things. It was so popular that only 32% people voted. So people did not care about it.

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

NI was given the right to a vote on self determination under the Belfast Agreement, why should Scotland be any different.

2014?

6 hours ago, Scottie12 said:

By my nom de plume you can tell I am Scottish and in my humble opinion the worst thing we could do is split from the Union, we simply do not have the financial clout to survive in the EU.

Do not put yourself down, at 42.47K$, Scotland would be 16th in the GDP per Capita rankings out of what would be 44 sovereign states in Europe. Between what would be left of the UK and Malta, and above countries like Italy and Spain

It wouldn't be easy and would require a viable plan, not the fantasy Alex Salmond put forward in 2014.

25 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

2014?

The interval between votes on self determination as specified in the Belfast Agreement is 7 years.

Remind me how long is it now since 2014 - then come up with a real reason why Scotland should be any different.

Personally,  I don't give a hoot about whether Scotland stays in or leaves the Union.   

 

What I do believe, however, is that the SNP is drumming up and inflaming passions without much regard or deliberation on the consequence of a vote for independence.

 

I believe many of the UK's citizens will be glad to see Scotland go.  Deep down, there's not much love lost between the nations.

 

If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, there is no reason why she and the UK shouldn't remain peaceful, co-operative neighbours, however.

 

Joining the EU is hardly a vote for independence, although much is made of the somewhat specious argument that the previous "no" vote was made before the UK referendum calling for Brexit. Certainly, the EU would have the funds to help uplift a newly-independent Scotland. Think Bulgaria, or Romania, or Turkey, when it is allowed to join. Somehow, Scotland would have to find a way to become part of the Eurozone, and switch to using the Euro.

 

The SNP needs to be up-front and transparent in what they are seeking, and what will be the practical consequences of either a vote for true "independence", or a notional independence.  On the plus side there is the romantic, idealistic concept of independence; canny and gritty Scots going it alone in the face of a challenging world beset with problems, to overcome all adversity that is in their path?

 

The reality, and true consequences, may be somewhat harsher.  Will it follow the path of Malaysia, perhaps, granted independence in 1960; or Ghana, similarly granted independence in 1960? A dichotomy if ever there was one!  Hard to determine, at this early stage.

 

Then there is the question of how often different referenda should be allowed or held, as there is always the possibility of setting up a future one should there be a clamour to rejoin the (rump) of the United Kingdom, perhaps after NI and Wales have also left the Union. Lol!

 

In the case of Scotland now, perhaps a referendum should first be put to the other 3 nations of the United Kingdom - that is, England, Northern Ireland and Wales, sans MP's from Scotland - following a majority vote for it in the British Parliament endorsing it, agreeing to a further indyref, and damn the cost! 

 

The UK is swimming in debt as it is.  A few millions more ain't gonna make much difference.

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

So? He was Australian, not Scottish.

Ok, so by your definition then if I export my German Volkswagen Golf to Australia my Golf seizes to be a German car and instead becomes Australian?!

 

You’re failing to see the difference between citizenship and ancestry. If an African moves to Europe and takes citizenship of a European country then ethnically he’s still African despite having a European citizenship.

 

If you had Thai citizenship and someone were to ask you about where you’re from, you’d most likely say, I have Thai citizenship, but I’m originally from Germany. 

8 hours ago, vogie said:

If Brexit hadn’t happened then I’d be on your side of the argument,

Thank you, you have hit the nail on the head and answered the question of why non UK citizens want the nationalists to have independence........... Revenge. 

I call total BS on that one. If you sign a work contract with a company and then 6 years later that company gets sold off to a new owner and your work or pay conditions worsen considerably,  you wouldn’t like it one bit if you wanted to quit and then your new boss says, well, you wanted to work here 6 years ago and you signed a contract and now you just gotta suck it up and stay because that’s what you wanted 6 years ago and therefore I’m not going to let you leave! 

 

The circumstances have changed DRAMATICALLY since the last vote, and that’s all there is to it! I don’t understand why this is so hard to grasp! To me it seems you want to avoid that your beloved UK completely disintegrates and now you’re trying to avoid that at all cost! Clearly, if you felt you have the right to decide whether you want to leave the EU because from your point of view it doesn’t suit your own needs you should give the Scots the right to decide whether they want to stay in the UK because it doesn’t suit their needs anymore because of a majority decision that was made against the will of the Scots! 
 

The UK is going down the drain and the Scots want to leave the sinking ship and it’s their right! 

8 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

And again, they voted to remain in the UK. They were, as voters in the UK, able to participate in the vote on leaving the UK. 

 

The city from which I come voted to remain in the EU. The rest of the county, and the majority county wide, voted to leave.  Exactly the same principle.

I don’t know where you got your numbers from, but 62% of the valid ballots in Scotland were in favor of remaining in the EU!!! Therefore it would only be fair to have another vote on whether to remain or leave the UK because the majority of the people on Scotland were against leaving and the UK left which changed the circumstance dramatically! 

25 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The interval between votes on self determination as specified in the Belfast Agreement is 7 years.

Remind me how long is it now since 2014 - then come up with a real reason why Scotland should be any different.

I didn't say anything about it being different. Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

I have never said that Scotland should not have another referendum. I merely pointed out that they had already had one, when a post suggested they hadn't.

 

What was the deal Scotland struck with regards to intervals between votes?

7 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

I call total BS on that one. If you sign a work contract with a company and then 6 years later that company gets sold off to a new owner and your work or pay conditions worsen considerably,  you wouldn’t like it one bit if you wanted to quit and then your new boss says, well, you wanted to work here 6 years ago and you signed a contract and now you just gotta suck it up and stay because that’s what you wanted 6 years ago and therefore I’m not going to let you leave! 

 

The circumstances have changed DRAMATICALLY since the last vote, and that’s all there is to it! I don’t understand why this is so hard to grasp! To me it seems you want to avoid that your beloved UK completely disintegrates and now you’re trying to avoid that at all cost! Clearly, if you felt you have the right to decide whether you want to leave the EU because from your point of view it doesn’t uit your own needs you should give the Scots the right to decide whether they want to stay in the UK because it doesn’t suit their needs anymore because of a majority decision that was made against the will of the Scots! 
 

The UK is going down the drain and the Scots want to leave the sinking ship and it’s their right! 

What you fail to realise is:

1: The United Kingdom is the company.

2: The Scots have had a referendum and have voted to remain.

3: There is no indication that the Scots want another.

4: You shouting will not make any difference to what the Scots want.

5: Is it just a coincidence that most Euros on here are shouting the loudest for the Scots to have another referendum and not the Scots themselves.

6: Is there a slight possibilty that the English are to blame for leaving the EU Jolly Boys Club and this is a way to get back at us.

7: Why do so many Euros support nationalism.

8 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Yes it does.

 

They voted to remain in the UK. No ifs, no buts, no perhaps.  It was fully understood by all parties that it was a "once in a lifetime decision".

 

As part of the UK (because they had voted to remain in the UK, no ifs, no buts, no perhaps

remember) they then took part in a UK wide vote on EU membership. That referendum produced a UK decision that the UK would leave the EU. No ifs, no buts, no perhaps.

 

As for those commenting from beyond the UK, (especially from Europe -  enthusiastically advocating the dismemberment of the UK) I can't help wandering what the reaction would be if the Walloons in Belgium, or Schleswig Holstein, were to demand independence from their respective countries;they are after all territories whose national affiliations were decided or imposed long after Scotland and England were brought into union.  We already know what happened with Catelonia in Spain!

 

 

 

I love how you conveniently left out the part that 62% of the valid ballots in Scotland voted to remain in the EU, which the UK didn’t, which dramatically changed the circumstance and therefore it would be only fair to have another vote! 
 

If you start working in a company and that company gets sold 6 years down the road and your pay situation worsens considerably and therefore you tell your new boss you want to quit and he goes, well you knew fully well that this was a once in a lifetime decision and therefore I’m not gonna let you leave, you wouldn’t like it one fricking bit! 
 

Also, who do you think you are that you think you can decide over the fate of millions of people, plus future generations? If Brexit hadn’t happened, I’d totally get it, but it did happen! Also, future generations should be able to decide for themselves what they think is best and not having to abide by a decision  that was made for them when the circumstances were completely different! 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

What you fail to realise is:

1: The United Kingdom is the company.

2: The Scots have had a referendum and have voted to remain.

3: There is no indication that the Scots want another.

4: You shouting will not make any difference to what the Scots want.

5: Is it just a coincidence that most Euros on here are shouting the loudest for the Scots to have another referendum and not the Scots themselves.

6: Is there a slight possibilty that the English are to blame for leaving the EU Jolly Boys Club and this is a way to get back at us.

7: Why do so many Euros support nationalism.

 

What you fail to realize is that the circumstance has changed dramatically to the disadvantage of the Scots because the UK left the EU! 62% of the valid ballots in Scotland voted to remain in the EU! This didn’t happen, therefore, IF the Scots want another vote on the subject matter they should have one! 
 

And I’m not supporting nationalism, I support the right for the Scots to make their own the decision on the subject matter whereas you play the same old record over and over again about how they made a decision in 2014 when it was a completely different story! 
 

You can’t expect someone to stay in a union, if that union doesn’t work to your advantage anymore, just you like you can’t expect someone to stay in a marriage if that marriage is detrimental to their well being just because they uttered ‘until death do us part’ 6 years earlier! 
 

 

My grandmother, who died recently at 99, told me about me her grandparents telling her about the Highland clearances. Lots of hatred to English and rightly so. 

It wasn't that long ago, and some English are surprised at how we feel! 

As for those people saying its not the Scots who want to see this vote but Euros who want revenge.

 

I admit that it would be the ultimate pie on the face of Brexiteers if because of their nationalistic vote other nationalist leave. ????

 

So that would be fore the most amusing outcome there could be. However I just want them to have a vote no matter how it goes. Its only right to them to have a vote after things for them changed all of a sudden so much. Most Scots wanted to stay in the EU that is no longer possible. Add some nationalists to that and there is a good chance a  majority will vote to leave the UK.

 

But its their choice just like it was the choice of the Brits to leave the Eu. I think it was stupid I mean go out of a trade block with your biggest trading partner and erect new trade barriers. Who ever thought that was going to be good economically needs to go to school again. However i respect their right to choice. To bad the Brit nationalist don't want to give the Scots their right as they know that this will break up the union and show how foolish Brexit was.

 

You guys can say it stupid of the Scots to leave but it should be their choice. The irony of this situation is overwhelming. 

 

 

 

Only interested in it because i feel its the Scots right. I mean Brexit changed the whole deal. Let them decide what they want. Let the two sides both make their case (hopefully based on truths not like Brexit) and then let the populace vote. But make sure its totally clear what they vote for and of course things like taxes and financial stuff needs to be discussed. I mean the whole  thing needs to be really clearly explained. 

 

Not that if they leave the union all of a sudden taxes are double and they did not know about it. Stuff like that must be some good research done. This is not something easy the concequences are quite big.

 

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

My grandmother, who died recently at 99, told me about me her grandparents telling her about the Highland clearances. Lots of hatred to English and rightly so. 

It wasn't that long ago, and some English are surprised at how we feel! 

What i read about Scotland was that they were not treated nicely by the English. But id say hatred of the English should be gone by now. I mean Germany invaded my country and that was only 70 years ago and most young people have no hatred towards the Germans (and they should not as the Germans of now are not the Germans of then). 

 

So how can it still live so long in Scotland i mean talking 150-250 years ago. I mean how is it that that sentiment has not died down. 

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

What i read about Scotland was that they were not treated nicely by the English. But id say hatred of the English should be gone by now. I mean Germany invaded my country and that was only 70 years ago and most young people have no hatred towards the Germans (and they should not as the Germans of now are not the Germans of then). 

 

So how can it still live so long in Scotland i mean talking 150-250 years ago. I mean how is it that that sentiment has not died down. 

I think Ewan McGregor explained it well????

51 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

My grandmother, who died recently at 99, told me about me her grandparents telling her about the Highland clearances. Lots of hatred to English and rightly so. 

It wasn't that long ago, and some English are surprised at how we feel! 

 

You couldn't be more wrong Neeranam, I totally accept your honesty, it is your fellow nationalists that deny that claim.

29 minutes ago, vogie said:

You couldn't be more wrong Neeranam, I totally accept your honesty, it is your fellow nationalists that deny that claim.

 

Wrong about what? 

22 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Wrong about what? 

You stated that:

Lots of hatred to English and rightly so. 

It wasn't that long ago, and some English are surprised at how we feel! 

 

I Said you were wrong as we already know that a certain sector of the Scots mainly through the SNP hate us.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

You stated that:

Lots of hatred to English and rightly so. 

It wasn't that long ago, and some English are surprised at how we feel! 

 

I Said you were wrong as we already know that a certain sector of the Scots mainly through the SNP hate us.

 

 

 

I mean hatred at that time. Do you know what happened in the Highland Clearances?

The feelings from these types of atrocities are passed from one generation to another and it often not for some time until the cycle is broken. 

There is a similar thing about Catholics in my my family but I've managed to break that one. 

I have an English friend too :) 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

What you fail to realise is:

1: The United Kingdom is the company.

2: The Scots have had a referendum and have voted to remain.

3: There is no indication that the Scots want another.

4: You shouting will not make any difference to what the Scots want.

5: Is it just a coincidence that most Euros on here are shouting the loudest for the Scots to have another referendum and not the Scots themselves.

6: Is there a slight possibilty that the English are to blame for leaving the EU Jolly Boys Club and this is a way to get back at us.

7: Why do so many Euros support nationalism.

 

1. The company is the UK?

2. Yes. Almost 7 years ago. Since then you guys decided to vote for Brexit even though you were warned it would cause calls for another referendum on independence. You didnt care.

3. Where is your evidence for Scots dont want another referendum?

4. Your shouting at Scots telling them what they can and cannot do will make a difference.

5.6.7. As I see it most on here calling for independence are Scots. The fact other people see the obvious hypocrisy from Brexiteers is just a bonus. Why are you surprised by this? Do you think you made many friends in Europe with Brexit? Do you think the insults thrown by Brexiteers at them will encourage thoughts of affection towards Brexit voting England?  

1 hour ago, pacovl46 said:

I love how you conveniently left out the part that 62% of the valid ballots in Scotland voted to remain in the EU, which the UK didn’t, which dramatically changed the circumstance and therefore it would be only fair to have another vote! 
 

 

Also, who do you think you are that you think you can decide over the fate of millions of people, plus future generations? If Brexit hadn’t happened, I’d totally get it, but it did happen! Also, future generations should be able to decide for themselves what they think is best and not having to abide by a decision  that was made for them when the circumstances were completely different! 

I think that I explained quite clearly that the Brexit referendum was a UK wide vote, in which the Scots had just as much right to vote as anyone else. The people of the UK voted, and the people of the UK decided. Now those calling for independence may not like that, but it is the case.

 

Secondly, I am not suggesting that I am deciding the fate of millions of people, or of future generations. The Scots themselves decided the fate of their millions of people when they rejected independence, for at least a generation. They decided their fate was to remain in the UK, where they have absolutely the same voting rights as everyone else. I know that the definition of a "generation" is certainly vague, but it is certainly more than 6 years!

 

FInally, perhaps I could remind you that the EU is ( despite pretensions and ambitions in certain quarters) essentially a trading block, not a unified nation with a Parliament and executive elected by universal suffrage throughout the Kingdom. That is a very important difference.

1 minute ago, herfiehandbag said:

I think that I explained quite clearly that the Brexit referendum was a UK wide vote, in which the Scots had just as much right to vote as anyone else. The people of the UK voted, and the people of the UK decided. Now those calling for independence may not like that, but it is the case.

 

Secondly, I am not suggesting that I am deciding the fate of millions of people, or of future generations. The Scots themselves decided the fate of their millions of people when they rejected independence, for at least a generation. They decided their fate was to remain in the UK, where they have absolutely the same voting rights as everyone else. I know that the definition of a "generation" is certainly vague, but it is certainly more than 6 years!

 

FInally, perhaps I could remind you that the EU is ( despite pretensions and ambitions in certain quarters) essentially a trading block, not a unified nation with a Parliament and executive elected by universal suffrage throughout the Kingdom. That is a very important difference.

 

Where is the legally binding agreement that it was once in a generation?

3 hours ago, robblok said:

Who is threatening the UK ? I mean do you really see a war in Western Europe. I don't. 

If they leave it will be forever and forever is a long time - many things can change.  Just as the USA faced nuclear warheads next door to them in Cuba way back - what's to say that in 50 years time Scotland allows the Ruskies to do the same.

 

That might seem outrageous now, I don't think the USA would have imagined it 25 years beforehand.

 

You may laugh Rookiescot but I think independence will come eventually and I guarantee you there will have to be an agreement on security before it goes ahead.

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

So independence but approval required from rUK about the decisions we take in the future? Aye, good one...

Yes, I'm afraid so - remember Cuba?

15 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Where is the legally binding agreement that it was once in a generation?

Messrs Salmond and Cameron both agreed, and both said publicly that it was so. It was clearly understood by everyone. To talk about legally binding agreements really is splitting hairs!