Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[onthemoon]

1 minute ago, saakura said:

It took me about 5yrs after applying (with a ton of documents) to be granted a PR. Then i had to wait a further 5yrs to be eligible to apply for citizenship, which i have done this year, and all going smoothly, may get it in 3-4yrs. So in sum total, about 13yrs. All through this time, i need to be working and paying taxes. So it is not as easy as it sounds, need a huge lot of patience.

Yes, I forgot to mention the 5 years waiting time between getting PR and being able to apply for citizenship. So that's 14 years for me so far, plus an estimated 4 years from application until being granted citizenship, total 18 years. If all goes smoothly from now on.

[heiri007]

36 minutes ago, saakura said:

It took me about 5yrs after applying (with a ton of documents) to be granted a PR. Then i had to wait a further 5yrs to be eligible to apply for citizenship, which i have done this year, and all going smoothly, may get it in 3-4yrs. So in sum total, about 13yrs. All through this time, i need to be working and paying taxes. So it is not as easy as it sounds, need a huge lot of patience.

Compare your own situation to someone who is married and works for three years? I think that puts PR hodlers in a very unfavorable position. Sounds like getting PR today is even more difficult than Thai ID.

[GarryP]

10 minutes ago, heiri007 said:

Compare your own situation to someone who is married and works for three years? I think that puts PR hodlers in a very unfavorable position. Sounds like getting PR today is even more difficult than Thai ID.

Many years ago I said I would never apply for PR because I thought it was overpriced for what you received (that was before the price increased), and believed that the law would change for citizenship based on marriage for foreign men. Eventually, the law did indeed change, but if it hadn't I would have been up <deleted> creek without a paddle as I head towards retirement. 

[rimmae2]

Would be good if the requirement for paying taxes was changed for those with PR. I was employed in and paid taxes in Thailand for 15 years. Delayed my application for citizenhip or PR due to the slow process from the mid 2000s, then applied for PR as I considered it would be quicker to obtain than citizenship and obtained it in 17 months. Now after more than 5 years being PR but not employed in Thailand, there is no opportunity at my age to apply for citizenship, which I would really like.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

40 minutes ago, rimmae2 said:

Would be good if the requirement for paying taxes was changed for those with PR. I was employed in and paid taxes in Thailand for 15 years. Delayed my application for citizenhip or PR due to the slow process from the mid 2000s, then applied for PR as I considered it would be quicker to obtain than citizenship and obtained it in 17 months. Now after more than 5 years being PR but not employed in Thailand, there is no opportunity at my age to apply for citizenship, which I would really like.

I understand and I'm sad for you. Hence the recommendation to anyone who aims naturalization and meets the minimum 50 points to not wait any minute and start the process as soon as possible (even if day one you aren't 100% sure on this you have 3+ years to consider and make decision along the way).

 

On a positive note, I'd say in your case having PR you can enjoy retirement and have no visa nor WP concern anymore, and can stay for your whole life in Thailand without paper trouble, isn't that nice already? The only difference with citizenship is around buying land, owning 100% of a business and spending more than one year outside Thailand in a row. But now please do consider this advantage: many of us still retain their original nationality, what do you think will happen if our respective country of origin one day decides by law to no longer accept double nationality? (as the world moves so fast I've started to imagine this scenario)... we could end up in a situation to be forced to drop one of them, which for a fraction of us would mean dropping the Thai citizenship. On that day believe me, some people would find themselves without Thai citizenship, without PR (which is returned upon citizenship acquisition if you had it) and in most case due to the age and retired status no possibility to gain them back. How valuable your neutral lifelong-PR can be seen compared to an hypothetical yet possible dramatic situation like this!

[saakura]

1 hour ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I understand and I'm sad for you. Hence the recommendation to anyone who aims naturalization and meets the minimum 50 points to not wait any minute and start the process as soon as possible (even if day one you aren't 100% sure on this you have 3+ years to consider and make decision along the way).

 

On a positive note, I'd say in your case having PR you can enjoy retirement and have no visa nor WP concern anymore, and can stay for your whole life in Thailand without paper trouble, isn't that nice already? The only difference with citizenship is around buying land, owning 100% of a business and spending more than one year outside Thailand in a row. But now please do consider this advantage: many of us still retain their original nationality, what do you think will happen if our respective country of origin one day decides by law to no longer accept double nationality? (as the world moves so fast I've started to imagine this scenario)... we could end up in a situation to be forced to drop one of them, which for a fraction of us would mean dropping the Thai citizenship. On that day believe me, some people would find themselves without Thai citizenship, without PR (which is returned upon citizenship acquisition if you had it) and in most case due to the age and retired status no possibility to gain them back. How valuable your neutral lifelong-PR can be seen compared to an hypothetical yet possible dramatic situation like this!

I never thought about this angle, thanks for pointing this out. I have just started the process of obtaining citizenship, so i have a few years to ponder over it.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

55 minutes ago, saakura said:

I never thought about this angle, thanks for pointing this out. I have just started the process of obtaining citizenship, so i have a few years to ponder over it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to influence anyone here -especially since I just got Thai nationality myself-, we all know we have different background and goals in life, I'm just saying that often we can't have the cake and eat it, meaning there are pros and cons in PR vs citizenship. Obviously anyone who's spending his entire life in Thailand will benefit from naturalization, however those who aren't able to go for it but already have PR should consider how lucky they already are compared to 99% retired foreigners who have to sweat for paper processing year after year. 

Edited September 6, 2020 by GabbaGabbaHey

[Neeranam]

8 hours ago, saakura said:

It took me about 5yrs after applying (with a ton of documents) to be granted a PR. Then i had to wait a further 5yrs to be eligible to apply for citizenship, which i have done this year, and all going smoothly, may get it in 3-4yrs. So in sum total, about 13yrs. All through this time, i need to be working and paying taxes. So it is not as easy as it sounds, need a huge lot of patience.

I thought of getting PR in order to gain citizenship when I got married in 2001, as the price was reduced to 9000 baht. However, after the Thaksin government raised it by a ridiculous factor(x10), I rethought and decided it wasn't worth it. I would also still need to pay for reentry permits etc and not really gain any benefits apart from being able to subsequently apply for Thai citizenship. 

As it happened, they law changed and I decided to look into it again. I had moved to Isaan and got a job that paid under the required 40k a month. Therefore, I had to get a new job and wait for 3 years before applying. As it is now, I saved 100k on getting the PR and going straight for citizenship is faster. I feel very lucky that it is so easy now in Thailand. An old friend of mine told me that he was lucky to get PR back in the day and needed the help of influential people. He was a high ranking diplomat at the US Embassy and had the Order of the White Elephant etc, yet couldn't achieve citizenship.  

[khongaeng]

6 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to influence anyone here -especially since I just got Thai nationality myself-, we all know we have different background and goals in life, I'm just saying that often we can't have the cake and eat it, meaning there are pros and cons in PR vs citizenship. Obviously anyone who's spending his entire life in Thailand will benefit from naturalization, however those who aren't able to go for it but already have PR should consider how lucky they already are compared to 99% retired foreigners who have to sweat for paper processing year after year. 

The UK has to have one of the most complicated set of citizenship laws ever, with laws changing every few decades and a complex network of colonies, territories, etc.  Yet to my knowledge there has never been a law passed that has removed the nationality of someone who already has it, unless somehow their status has changed like in the case of marriage to a foreign national or they obtain nationality in another country after the law has been passed preventing dual nationality.  With an increasing number of people with dual nationality through birth, 1 parent from each country, it will be increasingly difficult to force adults to give up one of their nationalities.  Thailand is probably a pretty safe country for such dual nationals since a great number of the upper class have dual nationality from being born in the US or growing up in Europe.  They can't change the law without affecting those people who will be a very vocal (and powerful) opposition to such changes.  

 

Currently nationality laws seem to be relaxing in terms of allowing dual nationality, while at the same time many countries are making it more difficult to obtain nationality.  So the bar to get nationality is becoming more difficult, but once you have it you are set.

 

Things can always change, especially if the world goes through tumultuous changes like in the 1940s to 1970s with wars / re-drawing borders / etc., but I am hopeful that doesn't happen within our lifetimes.  

 

In any case, GabbaGabbaHey's advice is very sound.  If anyone reading this forum is thinking even remotely that they would want to stay in Thailand long term or possibly retire here, don't delay!  Get the process started tomorrow, because 4 years after application after only a 5000 baht application fee is quite reasonable for any citizenship, all things considered.

Edited September 6, 2020 by khongaeng

[GabbaGabbaHey]

1 hour ago, khongaeng said:

Thailand is probably a pretty safe country for such dual nationals since a great number of the upper class have dual nationality from being born in the US or growing up in Europe.  They can't change the law without affecting those people who will be a very vocal (and powerful) opposition to such changes.

Very valid point.

[qualtrough]

On 9/4/2020 at 1:14 PM, qualtrough said:

I am glad to see that things seem to be moving along smoothly at the moment, but I have a concern. What happens if the current incumbent is no longer around to sign these citizenship papers? Something that could easily happen for any number of reasons. Is there any legal provision for someone else to sign these papers if necessary? Especially worrisome is that there is no heir-apparent ready to step in should it become necessary.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[khongaeng]

1 hour ago, qualtrough said:

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

I have wondered this myself.  I have even wondered what would happen if the officer handling my application gets promoted or moves out the of the Naturalization office. Does the application sit in limbo?  I know of someone whose officer moved out of the office and his application sat for years (this was also during the period of serious instability in the government, so it may have just been coincidental)

 

There have been others that have mentioned that their applications sat for years at MOI because the Minister refused to sign any applications.  The list of signatures seems to be quite consistent in the process all the way up to the top so if any one of the people is unavailable for whatever reason, expect your application to wait.  In the interim between the passing of King Rama 9 and the ordination of King Rama 10, SB mentioned to me that no applications were signed during that period.  Waiting for laws to change can take even longer since Naturalization laws seem to be adjust only every couple of decades in Thailand (last time was in 2008).  

 

I think the common consensus is people should get their paperwork in the process as soon as possible, since no one knows what the future holds for this drawn out, and relatively infrequently used process of naturalization in Thailand.  Thailand naturalizes less than a thousand people each year.  Most European countries Naturalized tens or even hundreds of thousands of people each year.  

 

I think your guess is probably as good as others what would happen.

[sas_cars]

On 9/5/2020 at 11:46 PM, heiri007 said:

Compare your own situation to someone who is married and works for three years? I think that puts PR hodlers in a very unfavorable position. Sounds like getting PR today is even more difficult than Thai ID.

 

People with thai connections (spouse, child etc.) have it much easier and faster to apply for citizenship. On the other hand, PR holders without thai connections are much more discriminated in the process, see below examples.

 

1, A person with a thai connection can apply citizenship with after just 3 years of work permit and taxes at just a 40K bath per month salary. Compare it with a PR holder without thai connections, who will only be eligible to apply for PR after 3 years of work permit and with a much higher salary of at least 80K per month, with a mountain load of paperwork, a big amount of Undertable money to the immigration plus official fees of 195K THB. Then, he has to wait for approval which used to be up to be 6 years in limbo. Then after approval, you have to wait 5 years to be eligible for citizenship application. Add up all these years with a salary of 80K and the amount of tax you would have paid and it will be more than a million baht  just for the taxes alone. In my case, it took me 13 years to be eligible to apply for citizenship this year, with 85K THB salary for all these 13 years. Imagine the taxes.

 

2, The discrimination doesn't end there. In addition of a 80K salary and taxes, Persons with PR have to sing both of the anthems, mandatory, and must have a knowledge of thai language. Whereas people with thai connections are exempted.

 

3, People with thai connections are fast tracked during the process of naturalization, comparing people with PR who are on a separate lane which is slower.

[yankee99]

8 hours ago, sas_cars said:

 

People with thai connections (spouse, child etc.) have it much easier and faster to apply for citizenship. On the other hand, PR holders without thai connections are much more discriminated in the process, see below examples.

 

1, A person with a thai connection can apply citizenship with after just 3 years of work permit and taxes at just a 40K bath per month salary. Compare it with a PR holder without thai connections, who will only be eligible to apply for PR after 3 years of work permit and with a much higher salary of at least 80K per month, with a mountain load of paperwork, a big amount of Undertable money to the immigration plus official fees of 195K THB. Then, he has to wait for approval which used to be up to be 6 years in limbo. Then after approval, you have to wait 5 years to be eligible for citizenship application. Add up all these years with a salary of 80K and the amount of tax you would have paid and it will be more than a million baht  just for the taxes alone. In my case, it took me 13 years to be eligible to apply for citizenship this year, with 85K THB salary for all these 13 years. Imagine the taxes.

 

2, The discrimination doesn't end there. In addition of a 80K salary and taxes, Persons with PR have to sing both of the anthems, mandatory, and must have a knowledge of thai language. Whereas people with thai connections are exempted.

 

3, People with thai connections are fast tracked during the process of naturalization, comparing people with PR who are on a separate lane which is slower.

my guess is citizenship in most countries is easier with family or a spouse 

[Neeranam]

7 hours ago, yankee99 said:

my guess is citizenship in most countries is easier with family or a spouse 

Having a family here doesn't make things easier, the only thing that does is being married.

 

AS for them discriminating against single people, what nonsense. Maybe if you were in a gay partnership, you could make a point for discrimination. 

[david143]

Any Interview meeting this month.
few friends waiting , no call yet from MOI

[qualtrough]

On 9/7/2020 at 10:32 PM, khongaeng said:

I have wondered this myself.  I have even wondered what would happen if the officer handling my application gets promoted or moves out the of the Naturalization office. Does the application sit in limbo?  I know of someone whose officer moved out of the office and his application sat for years (this was also during the period of serious instability in the government, so it may have just been coincidental)

 

There have been others that have mentioned that their applications sat for years at MOI because the Minister refused to sign any applications.  The list of signatures seems to be quite consistent in the process all the way up to the top so if any one of the people is unavailable for whatever reason, expect your application to wait.  In the interim between the passing of King Rama 9 and the ordination of King Rama 10, SB mentioned to me that no applications were signed during that period.  Waiting for laws to change can take even longer since Naturalization laws seem to be adjust only every couple of decades in Thailand (last time was in 2008).  

 

I think the common consensus is people should get their paperwork in the process as soon as possible, since no one knows what the future holds for this drawn out, and relatively infrequently used process of naturalization in Thailand.  Thailand naturalizes less than a thousand people each year.  Most European countries Naturalized tens or even hundreds of thousands of people each year.  

 

I think your guess is probably as good as others what would happen.

Regarding officials changing/leaving positions, etc. Last month I paid a visit to the Lumlukka office as I had not heard anything since my file was forwarded to them after the NIA (?) interview about 1.5 yrs ago. Staff were quite helpful, retrieved and reviewed my file, and said it should not be much longer. I will take the latter with a grain of salt, but it was reassuring to actually see that my file was there and that they had not found any issues with it.

[BKKBike09]

13 hours ago, david143 said:

Any Interview meeting this month.
few friends waiting , no call yet from MOI

There was an interview session yesterday (Tue 9th Sep). I know because I went, having been invited twice already (31 July and 18 August) but unable to attend on those occasions.

[BKKBike09]

On 9/6/2020 at 12:27 PM, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I understand and I'm sad for you. Hence the recommendation to anyone who aims naturalization and meets the minimum 50 points to not wait any minute and start the process as soon as possible (even if day one you aren't 100% sure on this you have 3+ years to consider and make decision along the way).

 

On a positive note, I'd say in your case having PR you can enjoy retirement and have no visa nor WP concern anymore, and can stay for your whole life in Thailand without paper trouble, isn't that nice already? The only difference with citizenship is around buying land, owning 100% of a business and spending more than one year outside Thailand in a row. But now please do consider this advantage: many of us still retain their original nationality, what do you think will happen if our respective country of origin one day decides by law to no longer accept double nationality? (as the world moves so fast I've started to imagine this scenario)... we could end up in a situation to be forced to drop one of them, which for a fraction of us would mean dropping the Thai citizenship. On that day believe me, some people would find themselves without Thai citizenship, without PR (which is returned upon citizenship acquisition if you had it) and in most case due to the age and retired status no possibility to gain them back. How valuable your neutral lifelong-PR can be seen compared to an hypothetical yet possible dramatic situation like this!

All good points. PR is very advantageous for anyone eligible who is planning to stay here long-term. It is not the "all-in" citizenship option and that has benefits. I don't think my home country (UK) would ever move to prevent dual nationality for its citizens. Or, if it did, it would be highly unlikely to be retroactive. However I do think anyone applying for citizenship in Thailand and blithely assuming that they can hold onto their birth nationality could be in for an unpleasant surprise in the future. Just because Thailand has never sought to enforce the regulation for naturalised Thai nationals requiring they give up their original nationality does not mean that it will not happen. As ever more government business is moved online and different departments are integrated, and more and more personal data is aggregated, I think it's much more likely. Travel is the highest risk: all good when e-gates are used, but not good when there's a manual passport check and an observant immigration officer notices there's no visa for Country X in the Thai passport. As Gabba says, if one was ever caught and forced to choose, giving up Thai citizenship would mean going right back to square one and tourist visas ...  

[david143]

10 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

There was an interview session yesterday (Tue 9th Sep). I know because I went, having been invited twice already (31 July and 18 August) but unable to attend on those occasions.

thank you for information

[GarryP]

14 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

All good points. PR is very advantageous for anyone eligible who is planning to stay here long-term. It is not the "all-in" citizenship option and that has benefits. I don't think my home country (UK) would ever move to prevent dual nationality for its citizens. Or, if it did, it would be highly unlikely to be retroactive. However I do think anyone applying for citizenship in Thailand and blithely assuming that they can hold onto their birth nationality could be in for an unpleasant surprise in the future. Just because Thailand has never sought to enforce the regulation for naturalised Thai nationals requiring they give up their original nationality does not mean that it will not happen. As ever more government business is moved online and different departments are integrated, and more and more personal data is aggregated, I think it's much more likely. Travel is the highest risk: all good when e-gates are used, but not good when there's a manual passport check and an observant immigration officer notices there's no visa for Country X in the Thai passport. As Gabba says, if one was ever caught and forced to choose, giving up Thai citizenship would mean going right back to square one and tourist visas ...  

I would have no problem with giving up my British citizenship if that were necessary to keep my Thai citizenship. Having lived in Thailand for 38 years, Thailand is my home. My only ties to the UK are my very old father, step-mother and sister. I have no assets there, and will not be getting any pension from the UK. That does not mean I do not like the place. Far from it. I love my trips back to Yorkshire. I think the English countryside is fantastic and even enjoy shopping in Leeds. But it is not my home - Thailand is. 

 

I guess I am not the only one.     

[david143]

@GabbaGabbaHey
Brother do you already collect your Certificate or still waiting.


 

[qualtrough]

5 hours ago, GarryP said:

I would have no problem with giving up my British citizenship if that were necessary to keep my Thai citizenship. Having lived in Thailand for 38 years, Thailand is my home. My only ties to the UK are my very old father, step-mother and sister. I have no assets there, and will not be getting any pension from the UK. That does not mean I do not like the place. Far from it. I love my trips back to Yorkshire. I think the English countryside is fantastic and even enjoy shopping in Leeds. But it is not my home - Thailand is. 

 

I guess I am not the only one.     

Same boat, but USA. Only real ties I have are my sisters and I visit about once a year. Don't hate the place, love visiting, but home is here. Thais are always convinced I have a wife stashed away there but just the one here is quite enough, thank you very much. The way things seem headed in the USA now makes the prospect of giving up citizenship (if it came to that) less daunting than it once might have been.

 

Yorkshire? I loved watching Heartbeat. I know that was set in the 60s and things have changed, but I would still love to go hiking around various places in the UK. I did 4th and 5th form at a overseas British school.  Even did one O-Level! Clever lad that I am :)

[GabbaGabbaHey]

7 hours ago, david143 said:

@GabbaGabbaHey
Brother do you already collect your Certificate or still waiting.

I haven't been contacted by SB to pick my certificate yet, I plan to wait until Mid September before contacting them. To be honest having been in the process for around 42 months or 180 weeks, now that RG is achieved few extra weeks (especially as I have PR and no WP expiration coming) will not change anything in my life ????. I will update you when I'm done with the ID. Thanks for asking!

Edited September 10, 2020 by GabbaGabbaHey

[david143]

11 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I haven't been contacted by SB to pick my certificate yet, I plan to wait until Mid September before contacting them. To be honest having been in the process for around 42 months or 180 weeks, now that RG is achieved few extra weeks (especially as I have PR and no WP expiration coming) will not change anything in my life ????. I will update you when I'm done with the ID. Thanks for asking!

Take care brother ????

[GabbaGabbaHey]

Today I just received the standard approval letter printed at Lamlukka office one week after the RG publication, basically confirming that my citizenship has been granted and takes effect from the day of publication to RG (So now I'm sure about this fact), that I'll have to pick a certificate at SB (fee is 500 baht) and within 60 days from RG date to complete the registration and get the ID card.

In parallel, I got confirmation from SB that my certificate is not yet ready as of today Sep 11 (RG was Aug 26) but they are preparing them. I just assume it will be ready next week around 3 weeks after my RG. No hurry as I said earlier, but like everyone in this case I'll definitely be happy to put a final dot to this chapter.

Edited September 11, 2020 by GabbaGabbaHey

[david143]

very nice GBU

[Neeranam]

On 9/10/2020 at 11:59 AM, GarryP said:

I would have no problem with giving up my British citizenship if that were necessary to keep my Thai citizenship. Having lived in Thailand for 38 years, Thailand is my home. My only ties to the UK are my very old father, step-mother and sister. I have no assets there, and will not be getting any pension from the UK. That does not mean I do not like the place. Far from it. I love my trips back to Yorkshire. I think the English countryside is fantastic and even enjoy shopping in Leeds. But it is not my home - Thailand is. 

 

I guess I am not the only one.     

I would have a problem as I'd quite like to retire to the UK, well for 6 months a year.

However, there is absolutely no chance of this happening, IMHO. There are hundreds of high-ranking government officials(and their families) that have dual/multi citizenship.

[david143]

I have one question.
After we make ID card, if we want to lease house from bank on our name, can we lease or we have to wait for certain period.
And what about vote casting too.

Thanks in Advance

[GarryP]

21 minutes ago, david143 said:

I have one question.
After we make ID card, if we want to lease house from bank on our name, can we lease or we have to wait for certain period.
And what about vote casting too.

Thanks in Advance

For voting, you must have held your ID card for 5 years.

 

For leasing, I would assume it is upon being able to present your ID card. I have not had any problems buying a house or land, but then I did not buy immediately after getting my ID card.