Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, thepdru said:

 

so we also have to vaccinate them ? it's 100% sure because some officials said it ?

I hope we also vaccinate kids at birth, as it seems to be just what you all want !

 

 

No. Because a system that was created much earlier to monitor the effect of various diseases on pregnant women says so. Or was the system also lying about the effects of the zika virus and other disease vectors on the pregnant?

"Surveillance for Emerging Threats to Mothers and Babies collects information on pregnant people and their children through the first 3 years of life. This system aims to figure out how health threats, such as COVID-19, hepatitis C, syphilis, and Zika, affect these populations. It may also track birth defects, developmental problems, and other disabilities as these children age. CDC scientists use these data to

• Monitor and improve the health of pregnant people and infants;
• Link families to medical and social services to get recommended care;
• Strengthen laboratory and clinical testing to find emerging health threats quickly; and
• Ensure public health is ready and prepared to meet the needs of pregnant people and infants during emergencies.

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/aboutus/pregnancy/emerging-threats.html

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, thepdru said:

 

so we also have to vaccinate them ? it's 100% sure because some officials said it ?

I hope we also vaccinate kids at birth, as it seems to be just what you all want !

 

 

More States Seeing Uptick of Pregnant COVID Patients in ICUs — Nearly all are unvaccinated, sources say

A report from the University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB) in August revealed that there had been a sharp increase in the number of pregnant patients who were being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly a month later, physicians from other states have started to voice similar concerns about the growing number of unvaccinated pregnant patients who have been admitted to ICUs with severe infection.

Mississippi state health officials announced on September 9 that eight pregnant women had died from COVID-19 in recent weeks; their babies were all delivered prematurely and survived, said state medical officer Thomas Dobbs, MD, MPH, during a press conference.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/94529?xid=nl_mpt_DHE_2021-09-16&eun=g1943859d0r&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily Headlines Top Cat HeC 2021-09-16&utm_term=NL_Daily_DHE_dual-gmail-definition

[Hatch]

On 7/27/2021 at 5:32 PM, richard_smith237 said:

Can we assume you avoided the Polio, Tetanus, Tuberculosis vaccines... after all... What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, right ???

 

What about Antibiotics ?? no need for those either... what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, right ???

 

 

You believe you had Covid-19  (but have never confirmed with an Antibody test)... Your antibodies will diminish, additionally the antibodies you do have (if you have any) may not mean thing against a different variant, especially if as you believe your infection was from very early on. 

 

Thus, your confidence that you will be fine is based on unknowns: 

a) You think you had Covid-19 but have never proven that

b) You think that the antibodies you think you have will protect you against all variants

 

Meanwhile - millions of people have taken a vaccine proven to be effective but you are instead trusting ‘assumptions’..... 

 

The dangerous part about this is that a lot of people agree with you as if vaccines are some kind of poison.

Actually, current data suggests that antibody and t-cell immunity are more wide reaching and longer lasting than the protection provided from vaccination.

 

Check:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

The question is, why has natural immunity been overlooked and is not tested for before the mass rollout of vaccines.

 

Given that most positive cases are asymptomatic, and the virus has been circulating in the community for some time, it's highly probable that natural antibodies and t-cell immunity will already exist in our communities.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Hatch

[Chomper Higgot]

27 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Actually, current data suggests that antibody and t-cell immunity are more wide reaching and longer lasting than the protection provided from vaccination.

 

Check:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

The question is, why has natural immunity been overlooked and is not tested for before the mass rollout of vaccines.

 

Given that most positive cases are asymptomatic, and the virus has been circulating in the community for some time, it's highly probable that natural antibodies and t-cell immunity will already exist in our communities.

You seem to have missed the bit where millions of people have been killed by the virus.

 

Take a look at places with low vaccination rates to see how it works. Idaho is a good example.

[Hatch]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

You seem to have missed the bit where millions of people have been killed by the virus.

 

Take a look at places with low vaccination rates to see how it works. Idaho is a good example.

Every death is a tragic loss so I don't mean to come across as callous. But the current case fatality rate is around 1.4%.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/

 

With regard to vaccination rates and the prevalence of new cases, as of September 1st Israel has the highest number of cases per capita and they have a particularly high vaccine uptake and the rollout was done quickly.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/latest-on-coronavirus-outbreak/israel-leads-world-in-average-of-new-daily-covid-cases-per-capita-study/2352018

 

 

[Hatch]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

More States Seeing Uptick of Pregnant COVID Patients in ICUs — Nearly all are unvaccinated, sources say

A report from the University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB) in August revealed that there had been a sharp increase in the number of pregnant patients who were being hospitalized with COVID-19. Nearly a month later, physicians from other states have started to voice similar concerns about the growing number of unvaccinated pregnant patients who have been admitted to ICUs with severe infection.

Mississippi state health officials announced on September 9 that eight pregnant women had died from COVID-19 in recent weeks; their babies were all delivered prematurely and survived, said state medical officer Thomas Dobbs, MD, MPH, during a press conference.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/94529?xid=nl_mpt_DHE_2021-09-16&eun=g1943859d0r&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily Headlines Top Cat HeC 2021-09-16&utm_term=NL_Daily_DHE_dual-gmail-definition

There is good reason for caution in the vaccination of pregnant women since none of the major manufacturers included this group into early clinical trials.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00578-y

 

Research and conclusions are ongoing.

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Every death is a tragic loss so I don't mean to come across as callous. But the current case fatality rate is around 1.4%.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/

 

With regard to vaccination rates and the prevalence of new cases, as of September 1st Israel has the highest number of cases per capita and they have a particularly high vaccine uptake and the rollout was done quickly.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/latest-on-coronavirus-outbreak/israel-leads-world-in-average-of-new-daily-covid-cases-per-capita-study/2352018

 

 

The death rate, despite vaccination, lockdowns, masks and public health messaging is 1.4%.

 

The data from Israel is consistent with data from elsewhere in the world, people who are vaccinated are at significantly lower risk of serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID.

 

[Hatch]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The death rate, despite vaccination, lockdowns, masks and public health messaging is 1.4%.

 

The data from Israel is consistent with data from elsewhere in the world, people who are vaccinated are at significantly lower risk of serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID.

 

I would agree that the data would suggest that as deaths have gone down while cases have continued to increase. But cause doesn't necessarily equate to causation.

 

Lower death rates would also have been impacted from better therapeutics, and dare I say, off label use of drugs in some countries, as well as natural immunity from prior infection.

 

All of these factors will contribute to varying degrees to the numbers you're referring to. This study is not yet complete.

 

It used to be thought that viral load and the ability to spread are correlated and that vaccinated individuals carry a lower viral load than those unvaccinated.

 

New data now indicates this not to be true and the viral load from both groups with the Delta variant carry similar viral loads.

 

Transmissability on this basis in both groups now appears equal.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1

 

[placeholder]

22 minutes ago, Hatch said:

There is good reason for caution in the vaccination of pregnant women since none of the major manufacturers included this group into early clinical trials.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00578-y

 

Research and conclusions are ongoing.

There may have been good reasons for caution early on, but now the data shows overwhelmingly that the risk to pregnant women is far greater than to those who aren't pregnant. So, no, conclusions aren't ongoing. From the report:

"An analysis of 77 cohort studies published last September⁴ made clear that pregnant women are a high-risk group. The review included data from more than 11,400 women with confirmed or suspected COVID-19 and who were hospitalized during their pregnancy for any reason. The odds of pregnant women with a COVID-19 diagnosis being admitted to the intensive-care unit (ICU) were 62% higher than for non-pregnant women of reproductive age, and the odds of needing invasive ventilation were 88% higher. "

 

The study did recommend that in the future pregnant women should be included in trials. It also concluded that foetuses of unvaccinated women aren't at greater risk than those born to vaccinated women. It seems that the disease isn't transmitted to foetuses even if the mother is infected.

[Hatch]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

There may have been good reasons for caution early on, but now the data shows overwhelmingly that the risk to pregnant women is far greater than to those who aren't pregnant. So, no, conclusions aren't ongoing. From the report:

"An analysis of 77 cohort studies published last September⁴ made clear that pregnant women are a high-risk group. The review included data from more than 11,400 women with confirmed or suspected COVID-19 and who were hospitalized during their pregnancy for any reason. The odds of pregnant women with a COVID-19 diagnosis being admitted to the intensive-care unit (ICU) were 62% higher than for non-pregnant women of reproductive age, and the odds of needing invasive ventilation were 88% higher. "

 

The study did recommend that in the future pregnant women should be included in trials. It also concluded that foetuses of unvaccinated women aren't at greater risk than those born to vaccinated women. It seems that the disease isn't transmitted to foetuses even if the mother is infected.

There are still many questions that are unanswered which is what I was referring to. 

 

The reason why they need to be included in trials is because research and conclusions are ongoing as I said earlier.

[Chomper Higgot]

34 minutes ago, Hatch said:

I would agree that the data would suggest that as deaths have gone down while cases have continued to increase. But cause doesn't necessarily equate to causation.

 

Lower death rates would also have been impacted from better therapeutics, and dare I say, off label use of drugs in some countries, as well as natural immunity from prior infection.

 

All of these factors will contribute to varying degrees to the numbers you're referring to. This study is not yet complete.

 

It used to be thought that viral load and the ability to spread are correlated and that vaccinated individuals carry a lower viral load than those unvaccinated.

 

New data now indicates this not to be true and the viral load from both groups with the Delta variant carry similar viral loads.

 

Transmissability on this basis in both groups now appears equal.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1

 

You are arguing against s growing body of science:

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00472-2/fulltext

 

Once again, I suggest you look at places with low vaccination uptake.

 

I’ve suggested Idaho but Florida or any other State in the grip anti-vaccine fever will do to demonstrate vaccines are saving significant numbers of lives.

 

Having stated ‘[sic] cause is not causation’ you dream up

a list of ‘causes’.

 

It probably has not occurred to you that a specific part of scientific research (and a core of pear review) is to examine the question is ‘causation being incorrectly attributed to a unrelated correlation’.

 

If you are going to string imagined alternative causes to this issue you need some science to back it up.

 

Your whole argument is a fabricated nonsense.

 

The fact is, the data coming out of Israel is in agreement with the data coming in from around the world.

 

People who are vaccinated are significantly less likely to become seriously ill, hospitalized or dead from COVID.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[thepdru]

59 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You seem to have missed the bit where millions of people have been killed by the virus.

 

Take a look at places with low vaccination rates to see how it works. Idaho is a good example.

You seem to have missed the bit where BILLIONS of people have NOT been killed by the virus.

 

Even before vaccination.

 

You government followers and even worst are so funny...

 

Look at me, isn't it incredible ? Almost 2 years, unvaccinated, and still not dead ! What is this nazi virus waiting to kill me ?!

 

 

[thepdru]

56 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Every death is a tragic loss

Really ? Not my opinion. We are born to die, my parents, brothers, sisters and whole family included.

People are living in their own dream...

 

 

[Hatch]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

...stated ‘[sic] cause is not causation’ you dream up...

 

If you are going to string imagined alternative causes to this issue you need some science to back it up.

I posted links to each point I've made. The factors that impact the severity of illness come from other areas too.

 

Natural immunity and antibody testing being one such example. This is not made up nor fabricated. It should actually be at the root of pandemic management. 

 

A good piece on it here:

https://institute.global/policy/antibody-testing-tool-pandemic-management

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, thepdru said:

You seem to have missed the bit where BILLIONS of people have NOT been killed by the virus.

 

Even before vaccination.

 

You government followers and even worst are so funny...

 

Look at me, isn't it incredible ? Almost 2 years, unvaccinated, and still not dead ! What is this nazi virus waiting to kill me ?!

 

 

Stay lucky.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

17 minutes ago, Hatch said:

I posted links to each point I've made. The factors that impact the severity of illness come from other areas too.

 

Natural immunity and antibody testing being one such example. This is not made up nor fabricated. It should actually be at the root of pandemic management. 

 

A good piece on it here:

https://institute.global/policy/antibody-testing-tool-pandemic-management

While copying and posting links you seem to have not grasped the unequivocal fact that nobody acquires natural immunity to COVID without first getting infected.

 

Which brings us back to the problem of serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths, the vast majority of which may be avoided by vaccination.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[placeholder]

28 minutes ago, Hatch said:

There are still many questions that are unanswered which is what I was referring to. 

 

The reason why they need to be included in trials is because research and conclusions are ongoing as I said earlier.

But there isn't any question that pregnant women are being admitted to ICUs  at a much higher rate than the average.

[Hatch]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

While copying and posting links you seem to have not grasped the unequivocal fact that nobody squires natural immunity to COVID without first getting infected.

 

Which brings us back to the problem of serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths, the vast majority of which may be avoided by vaccination.

 

 

I feel I'm grasping things ok. You suggested I was making other factors that affect death rates such as natural immunity, improved and off label uses of therapeutics etc

 

I wasn't making them up as you said, and you've just accepted that because clearly, there are other factors at play and it's not *just* the vaccine at work.

 

If the goal is to gain herd immunity, then please can you explain to me so I can grasp things why antibody testing hasn't been a pivotal part of pandemic management?

 

To gain herd immunity, we need to know the prevalence of antibodies in our communities.

 

There has also been a number of other studies about the use of tried and tested vitamin supplementation on the boosting of our immune systems. Why have these things not been pursued with the same vigor?

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n544/rr-5

 

Regarding the mRNA based vaccines, I am a firm believer in due process. Long term effects of new technologies take the test of time to measure effects which is what phase 3 clinical trials are aimed at achieving which in this case aren't due to conclude until 2023.

 

Before bypassing or rushing due process, we should have been pursuing every avenue to leverage existing drugs for off-label uses since they have already gone through due process.

 

With the same vigor, there should have been the promotion of various immune boosting activities to save lives.

 

Exercise, incentivizing the consumption of wholefoods instead of processed, vitamin supplementation etc etc

 

I guess the focus is on the priorities and this debate is on whether or not the interventions I posted above would also save lives and present the question, is bypassing due process absolutely necessary.

 

Only then, if we aren't making headway should due process be hurried along but only as a last resort.

 

 

[Tanomazu]

36 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The fact is, the data coming out of Israel is in agreement with the data coming in from around the world.

 

You mean the data showing that despite high uptake of vaccinations record number of cases are being reported?

[Hatch]

14 minutes ago, placeholder said:

But there isn't any question that pregnant women are being admitted to ICUs  at a much higher rate than the average.

But... So you are accepting that the use of vaccines during pregnancy is still being researched and conclusions being drawn.

 

It's terrible that anybody end in ICU, but honestly, due process is just that and we should deviate from that at our peril. 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Hatch
Typo

[Chomper Higgot]

If anyone had data that demonstrates people who vaccinated are not less likely to because me seriously ill,  not less likely to be hospitalized or not less likely to die from COVID, it would be used as the basis of their at argument.

 

We see no such data because no such data exists.

 

What we are given instead is constant reference to unpublished ‘reports’ from Israel, misleading newspaper headlines and pseudo science.

 

Cut to the chase:

 

Give us the data that demonstrates vaccination does not reduce the risks of serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID.

[gamb00ler]

33 minutes ago, thepdru said:

You seem to have missed the bit where BILLIONS of people have NOT been killed by the virus.

 

Even before vaccination.

 

You government followers and even worst are so funny...

 

Look at me, isn't it incredible ? Almost 2 years, unvaccinated, and still not dead ! What is this nazi virus waiting to kill me ?!

 

 

LOL .... I used to dream about people like you sitting down at the poker table with me.  No concept of odds, probabilities and so, so gullible.

 

A randomly thrown dart misses the dart board much more frequently than it hits it.  Random chance is a major component in the compound probabilities of who does or does not become infected.   Each individual's actions also heavily influence their odds of infection.  If you're smart you modify those activities to minimize your exposure.  It is difficult to lower you odds to zero.

Sheesh!

 

So, it seems you've been lucky to date.  Don't press your luck!

[Hatch]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If anyone had data that demonstrates people who vaccinated are not less likely to because me seriously ill,  not less likely to be hospitalized or not less likely to die from COVID, it would be used as the basis of their at argument.

 

We see no such data because no such data exists.

 

What we are given instead is constant reference to unpublished ‘reports’ from Israel, misleading newspaper headlines and pseudo science.

 

Cut to the chase:

 

Give us the data that demonstrates vaccination does not reduce the risks of serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID.

As you said, the data doesn't yet exist and without talking about the interventions I posted, you are reaching to bypass due process *before* all the others.

 

You cut to the chase. 

 

On what basis do you think my listed interventions wouldn't save lives?

 

If you are a proponent of vaccination to gain antibodies, why are you not explaining to me why antibody via vaccine is preferred over the ones coming from natural immunity?

 

On what basis are you saying we should bypass due process?

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

You mean the data showing that despite high uptake of vaccinations record number of cases are being reported?

How many times do we have to deal with this?

 

Fact:

The vaccines were formulated before the much more virulent Delta Variant arrived.

 

Fact:

Vaccinated people are nevertheless significantly less likely to become seriously ill, hospitalized or die from the new virulent strain of the COVID virus.

 

The data demonstrates the effectiveness and safety of the vaccines.

 

Thanks for mentioning the data.

 

[Hatch]

3 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

LOL .... I used to dream about people like you sitting down at the poker table with me.  No concept of odds, probabilities and so, so gullible.

 

A randomly thrown dart misses the dart board much more frequently than it hits it.  Random chance is a major component in the compound probabilities of who does or does not become infected.   Each individual's actions also heavily influence their odds of infection.  If you're smart you modify those activities to minimize your exposure.  It is difficult to lower you odds to zero.

Sheesh!

 

So, it seems you've been lucky to date.  Don't press your luck!

Your strawman tactics are disingenuous.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Hatch said:

As you said, the data doesn't yet exist and without talking about the interventions I posted, you are reaching to bypass due process *before* all the others.

 

You cut to the chase. 

 

On what basis do you think my listed interventions wouldn't save lives?

 

If you are a proponent of vaccination to gain antibodies, why are you not explaining to me why antibody via vaccine is preferred over the ones coming from natural immunity?

 

On what basis are you saying we should bypass due process?

I did not say the data does not exist,

 

There’s mountains of data and that data is demonstrating the effectiveness and safety of the vaccines.

 

If you have dat to the contrary, let’s be having it?!

 

I’ve explained the problem with ‘naturally acquired antibodies’ they are acquired by infection, infection comes with the risks of serious illness, hospitalization and death.

 

Refer States with low vaccination uptake to see how that works out.

[placeholder]

16 minutes ago, Hatch said:

But... So you are accepting that the use of vaccines during pregnancy is still being researched and conclusions being drawn.

 

It's terrible that anybody end in ICU, but honestly, due process is just that and we should deviate from that at our peril. 

 

 

 

What you don't acknowledge is that it's been standard in vaccine trials not to include pregnant women because those doing the testing didn't want to make pregnant women run a risk.

"All the COVID-19 vaccine trials, like virtually all clinical trials, have excluded pregnant and lactating individuals from participating; however, developmental and reproductive toxicity studies with the Moderna vaccine in rats haven't uncovered any worrisome signals."

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777024#:~:text=All the COVID-19 vaccine,t uncovered any worrisome signals.

Researchers assumed that if the results showed that the vaccine was safe for the general population then most likely it would be safe for women. Now there's a movement among scientists to change that approach and subject pregnant women and their foetuses to run the same risks as others.

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by placeholder

[pomchop]

covid often fixes stupid.

[Hatch]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I did not say the data does not exist,

 

There’s mountains of data and that data is demonstrating the effectiveness and safety of the vaccines.

 

If you have dat to the contrary, let’s be having it?!

 

I’ve explained the problem with ‘naturally acquired antibodies’ they are acquired by infection, infection comes with the risks of serious illness, hospitalization and death.

 

Refer States with low vaccination uptake to see how that works out.

The data from the conclusion of stage 3 clinical trials doesn't fully exist until 2023.

 

Natural immunity coming from what is statistically speaking coming from asymptomatic natural infection, not from severe illness.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220322943

 

Refer to places that have high uptake of vaccine and explain why cases are rising? 

 

 

 

[Hatch]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

 

What you don't acknowledge is that it's been standard in vaccine trials not to include pregnant women because those doing the testing didn't want to make pregnant women run a risk.

"All the COVID-19 vaccine trials, like virtually all clinical trials, have excluded pregnant and lactating individuals from participating; however, developmental and reproductive toxicity studies with the Moderna vaccine in rats haven't uncovered any worrisome signals."

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777024#:~:text=All the COVID-19 vaccine,t uncovered any worrisome signals.

Researchers assumed that if the results showed that the vaccine was safe for the general population then most likely it would be safe for women. Now there's a movement among scientists to change that approach and subject pregnant women and their foetuses to run the same risks as others.

 

So... Research continues hey?