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Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?


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2 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Read what I said in my previous post. It was already clear enough.

 

The best way of not dieing from covid is to have a strong immune system.

 

The best way to avoid the zoonotic mutations resulting in possible pandemics like covid is to change our behaviour.

That is absolutely not correct. Healthy people are dying from covid. Stunning you're not aware of this. Shows why we're still in this mess.

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1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Getting people to change their habits is very difficult and requires a prolonged campaign of public health. There is some evidence that increased levels Vitamin D can help protect against Covid. Particularly for Black people.

https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/forefront/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/vitamin-d-covid-study

But it's still nowhere nearly as effective as vaccines.

I think you would agree that where there is a will there's lots of evidence that you can get people to change their behaviour. This pandemic has shown us that.

 

The question is, why has there been so little effort? 

 

And it's not just people of colour that suffer from vitamin d deficiency resulting in higher death rates from covid. 

 

Here is a good piece on it from the first wave in Europe.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201027092216.htm

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9 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Respiratory syncytial virus (RSV): This pervasive respiratory virus has proven resistant to vaccination. Children treated with one vaccine in the 1960s developed an enhanced form of the disease, suffering high fever, bronchopneumonia, and wheezing. Many were hospitalized and two died

 

Dengue fever: The Philippines halted a school-based vaccination program in 2017 after reports of complications and several deaths linked to the product, Dengvaxia. The French manufacturer, Sanofi Pasteur, later said the vaccine posed a risk to people without prior infection from one of the disease’s four stereotypes, actually increasing the risk that the child would contract a more severe form of the disease.

 

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/here-s-why-we-can-t-rush-covid-19-vaccine

 

In what became known as the Cutter incident, some lots of the Cutter vaccine—despite passing required safety tests—contained live polio virus in what was supposed to be an inactivated-virus vaccine. Cutter withdrew its vaccine from the market on April 27 after vaccine-associated cases were reported.

 

The mistake produced 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that contained live polio virus. Of children who received the vaccine, 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed paralytic poliomyelitis—and of these, five children died from polio.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories

 

Excellent post. And interestingly, they were pulled due to much lower adverse effects than we are seeing reported with the vaccine (so far). 

 

Currently 14,500+ in the USA.

https://openvaers.com/covid-data

Website operated by the CDC/FDA.

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24 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Vaccines are not repeatedly injected? Okay. Sounds like you're in the know about this.

The point is that medications that caused side effects were taken daily or multiple times daily and over weeks, months, in some cases years. So the ingredients of the medication were in the body constantly over a long period of time.

That is not the case with the COVID vaccines that are injected once, twice or even three times.

They are not in the body for anywhere near that much time.

 

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8 minutes ago, Hatch said:

The best way of not dieing from covid is to have a strong immune system.

You have any evidence to support your contention that having a strong immune system is even as good as, much less better than, being vaccinated? Unless, of course, you rely on circular reasoning.

 

Given that only 3% of deaths were among the vaccinated, I guess you could explain that away by claiming that those who get vaccinated were a lot healthier in the first place. Otherwise, not so much.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

The point is that medications that caused side effects were taken daily or multiple times daily and over weeks, months, in some cases years. So the ingredients of the medication were in the body constantly over a long period of time.

That is not the case with the COVID vaccines that are injected once, twice or even three times.

They are not in the body for anywhere near that much time.

 

The mRNA vaccines actually fool the body to produce the viral protein itself. Thus your body itself becomes the illness if you have been vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine. Are you sure you can guarantee me in 5 years time these mRNA vaccines will not produce the viral protein repeatedly or in numbers that are too great for the immune system to defeat?

 

You have this knowledge, cdemundo?

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12 minutes ago, Hatch said:

The current statistics would not concur.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/

 

Although sadly, every life lost is tragic. 

True. Most who die are elderly or at risk due to health issues. But MANY younger people who are healthy are getting covid. Dying or suffering long term consequences. I've got several friends like this.

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5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You have any evidence to support your contention that having a strong immune system is even as good as, much less better than, being vaccinated? Unless, of course, you rely on circular reasoning.

 

Given that only 3% of deaths were among the vaccinated, I guess you could explain that away by claiming that those who get vaccinated were a lot healthier in the first place. Otherwise, not so much.

 

 

 

Maybe I can be of help here:

 

"Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity."

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

So, yes. There is evidence. Clearly you're not aware of it.

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10 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Excellent post. And interestingly, they were pulled due to much lower adverse effects than we are seeing reported with the vaccine (so far). 

 

Currently 14,500+ in the USA.

https://openvaers.com/covid-data

Website operated by the CDC/FDA.

That is correct, only a few hundred cases sufficed to get Thalidomide pulled from the market after 5 years. With the Covid vaccines there have been many thousands of "adverse events" recorded in the US, UK, Germany, France, etc.

 

Yes, the vaccines do provide protection. Do they provide better protection than natural immunity? Latest study says they do not.

 

Are the vaccines safe? Depends who you ask, not for the relatives of those who died after taking the vaccine or suffered serious illness. For the rest yes.

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20 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You have any evidence to support your contention that having a strong immune system is even as good as, much less better than, being vaccinated? Unless, of course, you rely on circular reasoning.

 

Given that only 3% of deaths were among the vaccinated, I guess you could explain that away by claiming that those who get vaccinated were a lot healthier in the first place. Otherwise, not so much.

 

 

 

There you go again in your drive for simplification through pigeon holing.

 

It's one or the other only?

 

I think there is broad medical consensus that having a strong immune system helps the body fight, well.. Everything.

 

Have you got any evidence to the contrary before you reach for that shringe?

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2 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

Yes, I do have this knowledge.

So should you if you took the time to look into it.

Also, if you took the barest minimum of effort to inform yourself you would not have used the polio vaccine example in your discussion of virus risks.

None of the current vaccines use inactive COVID virus, so the polio vaccine example has no relevance.

 

"The mRNA vaccines actually fool the body to produce the viral protein itself."

That is an adorable little "just so" story, now tell the one about the Elephant's Child.

 

The mRNA vaccines introduce an mRNA sequence that codes for the spike protein.

The body recognizes that protein as foreign and an immune response is elicited, among other responses, antibodies to the spike protein are produced.

Your imprecise misunderstanding ("to produce the viral protein itself") is possibly the source of your confusion.

The spike protein is the surface structure on the Corona virus that binds to human cells.

Spike proteins are the structures that are sticking out all over the surface of the virus.

Spike proteins do not and cannot cause disease.

 

And has been discussed ad nauseam in this forum and elsewhere, mRNA is a very fragile structure, it decays into its component parts very rapidly.  Hence, the refrigeration requirements prior to use.

At body temperature the mRNA disintegrates rapidly.

 

Here are two detailed explanations of how the mRNA vaccines work.

They don't include cute little anthropomorphisms for children like "the vaccines actually fool the body".

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine.html

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/moderna-covid-19-vaccine.html

 

You have a gross misunderstanding of the topics you are holding forth on.

You really should make an effort to inform yourself so you can calm your unfounded fears.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given your extensive knowledge on this subject, please can you share with us prior use of this technology in widespread use?

 

In addition, please can you tell me what purpose phase 3 clinical trials are meant to serve?

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26 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

True. Most who die are elderly or at risk due to health issues. But MANY younger people who are healthy are getting covid. Dying or suffering long term consequences. I've got several friends like this.

Many younger people are suffering long term medical problems due to an whole host of life choices.

 

Statistically speaking, the vast majority of healthy people have no problems in dealing with this virus.

 

It's ridiculous that people can't see this from a more holistic perspective in the midst of reaching for that "quick fix" of a jab and then doing nothing or having no conversation on proactive behavioural changes that would prevent many more deaths.

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2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It's an early  report. But even if so, it does nothing to explain the huge discrepancy between the mortality rate of the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. It's clear that if baseless resistance to being vaccinated hadn't emerged in the USA, and the population was virtually fully vaccinated, Covid would be entirely under control by now. Deaths from Covid would be reduced to  a small fraction of where they are now.

How does this small fraction of infections measure up to the Israel numbers whilst having high vaccine uptake?

 

When will people realise that we can't just keep vaccinating our way out of pandemics? 

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2 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

One important point that you fail to mention: the subjects belonged to 3 groups:

(1)SARS-CoV-2-naïve individuals who received a two-dose regimen of the BioNTech/Pfizer mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine, (2)previously infected individuals who have not been vaccinated, and

(3)previously infected and single dose vaccinated individuals. 

 

The natural immunity discussed is the immunity of persons who have been previously been infected by COVID.

Not the natural immunity of the uninfected population.

So are you advocating going out and getting infected to boost your immune system?

If the risk profile of the individual is statistically highly unlikely to result in severe illness and they wished to get it over with, I see no problem with any person going around licking door handles if they so wished as long as they went home afterwards and didn't infect anybody else.

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9 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Given your extensive knowledge on this subject, please can you share with us prior use of this technology in widespread use?

 

In addition, please can you tell me what purpose phase 3 clinical trials are meant to serve?

I do not have extensive knowledge, i have a very basic understanding of the way mRNA vaccines work.

The person I responded to had less than zero since he had a misunderstanding.

Both of you questions are irrelevant.

There have been more than 382,000,000 doses administered in the US alone, much more information has been gathered from those cases than 30,000 people in a Phase 3 trial.

 

If you have a point to try and make, then make it.

Like most anti-vaxxers your passion exceeds both your level of understanding and your level of basic courtesy.

 

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25 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

Yes, I do have this knowledge.

So should you if you took the time to look into it.

Also, if you took the barest minimum of effort to inform yourself you would not have used the polio vaccine example in your discussion of virus risks.

None of the current vaccines use inactive COVID virus, so the polio vaccine example has no relevance.

 

"The mRNA vaccines actually fool the body to produce the viral protein itself."

That is an adorable little "just so" story, now tell the one about the Elephant's Child.

 

The mRNA vaccines introduce an mRNA sequence that codes for the spike protein.

The body recognizes that protein as foreign and an immune response is elicited, among other responses, antibodies to the spike protein are produced.

Your imprecise misunderstanding ("to produce the viral protein itself") is possibly the source of your confusion.

The spike protein is the surface structure on the Corona virus that binds to human cells.

Spike proteins are the structures that are sticking out all over the surface of the virus.

Spike proteins do not and cannot cause disease.

 

And has been discussed ad nauseam in this forum and elsewhere, mRNA is a very fragile structure, it decays into its component parts very rapidly.  Hence, the refrigeration requirements prior to use.

At body temperature the mRNA disintegrates rapidly.

 

Here are two detailed explanations of how the mRNA vaccines work.

They don't include cute little anthropomorphisms for children like "the vaccines actually fool the body".

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine.html

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/moderna-covid-19-vaccine.html

 

You have a gross misunderstanding of the topics you are holding forth on.

You really should make an effort to inform yourself so you can calm your unfounded fears.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, you're not believable. You don't have that knowledge. You simply can not and do not know what the mRNA vaccine will lead to in 5 years time, whether the production of the viral protein will not be repeated at some point, whether it will be done in numbers too great for my particular immune system.

 

25 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

Your imprecise misunderstanding ("to produce the viral protein itself")

From your comment above it is clear that you do not know what you think you know. From the government itself:

 

"mRNA vaccines work by introducing a piece of mRNA that corresponds to a viral protein, usually a small piece of a protein found on the virus’s outer membrane. (Individuals who get an mRNA vaccine are not exposed to the virus, nor can they become infected by the vaccine.) Using this mRNA blueprint, cells produce the viral protein."

 

https://medlineplus.gov/about/

 

I think I trust the world's largest medical library, sponsored by the US government, more than your self-declared knowledge, which they contradict. You are obviously not sufficiently equipped to understand what you are posting.

 

It doesn't matter if mRNA vaccines are fragile. If they are injected in the body they are not decayed, and if that happens then they cause the cells in the body to produce the viral protein. Even if it is the spike part, that is of course what leads to infection.

 

You clearly do not understand the basics of mRNA vaccines.

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Hatch said:

If the risk profile of the individual is statistically highly unlikely to result in severe illness and they wished to get it over with, I see no problem with any person going around licking door handles if they so wished as long as they went home afterwards and didn't infect anybody else.

The point is that this study was quoted as evidence that natural immunity is stronger than immunity due to vaccination.

It is not talking about natural immunity from taking Vitamin D supplements and eating kale, it is talking about immunity in individuals that have been previously infected.

So quoting this study as was done was misleading, whether intentional or not.

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1 minute ago, cdemundo said:

I do not have extensive knowledge, i have a very basic understanding of the way mRNA vaccines work.

The person I responded to had less than zero since he had a misunderstanding.

Both of you questions are irrelevant.

There have been more than 382,000,000 doses administered in the US alone, much more information has been gathered from those cases than 30,000 people in a Phase 3 trial.

 

If you have a point to try and make, then make it.

Like most anti-vaxxers your passion exceeds both your level of understanding and your level of basic courtesy.

 

Your response to that poster was one of belittlement.

 

You didn't answer the question.

 

Please can you share with me other usecases of mRNA technology that are in widespread use?

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3 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Sorry, you're not believable. You don't have that knowledge. You simply can not and do not know what the mRNA vaccine will lead to in 5 years time, whether the production of the viral protein will not be repeated at some point, whether it will be done in numbers too great for my particular immune system.

 

From your comment above it is clear that you do not know what you think you know. From the government itself:

 

"mRNA vaccines work by introducing a piece of mRNA that corresponds to a viral protein, usually a small piece of a protein found on the virus’s outer membrane. (Individuals who get an mRNA vaccine are not exposed to the virus, nor can they become infected by the vaccine.) Using this mRNA blueprint, cells produce the viral protein."

 

https://medlineplus.gov/about/

 

I think I trust the world's largest medical library, sponsored by the US government, more than your self-declared knowledge, which they contradict. You are obviously not sufficiently equipped to understand what you are posting.

 

It doesn't matter if mRNA vaccines are fragile. If they are injected in the body they are not decayed, and if that happens then they cause the cells in the body to produce the viral protein. Even if it is the spike part, that is of course what leads to infection.

 

You clearly do not understand the basics of mRNA vaccines.

 

 

 

 

You don't understand what you quoted.

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5 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

The point is that this study was quoted as evidence that natural immunity is stronger than immunity due to vaccination.

It is not talking about natural immunity from taking Vitamin D supplements and eating kale, it is talking about immunity in individuals that have been previously infected.

So quoting this study as was done was misleading, whether intentional or not.

There is increasing evidence that natural immunity post infection is indeed longer lasting than vaccine induced immunity.

 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210830/Does-SARS-CoV-2-natural-infection-immunity-better-protect-against-the-Delta-variant-than-vaccination.aspx

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2 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Your response to that poster was one of belittlement.

 

You didn't answer the question.

 

Please can you share with me other usecases of mRNA technology that are in widespread use?

My response was full of information, he has already replied saying the something he said before.

Again, you think you are clever asking questions like I have some obligation to you.

The mRNA vaccines themselves have been administered hundreds of millions of times.

Plenty of evidence for their safety.

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3 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

The point is that this study was quoted as evidence that natural immunity is stronger than immunity due to vaccination.

It is not talking about natural immunity from taking Vitamin D supplements and eating kale, it is talking about immunity in individuals that have been previously infected.

So quoting this study as was done was misleading, whether intentional or not.

What a load of hogwash!

 

Very obviously the question was about "natural" immunity vs vaccine induced immunity. Of course natural immunity can only happen once you have been infected. That is natural immunity, ie not vaccine-induced immunity.

 

The study CLEARLY concluded that natural immunity is stronger than vaccine induced immunity. That's what the author's clearly say themselves. Obviously you don't even understand what natural immunity means.

 

"Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

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51 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Maybe I can be of help here:

 

"Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity."

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

So, yes. There is evidence. Clearly you're not aware of it.

And many studies showing the path to herd immunity will cost millions of lives. If it can ever be achieved. Which is doubtful.

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1 minute ago, Hatch said:

There is increasing evidence that natural immunity post infection is indeed longer lasting than vaccine induced immunity.

 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210830/Does-SARS-CoV-2-natural-infection-immunity-better-protect-against-the-Delta-variant-than-vaccination.aspx

 

Same study, same misrepresentation by you.

From the link you provided:

"(1)SARS-CoV-2-naïve individuals who received a two-dose regimen of the BioNTech/Pfizer mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine,

(2)previously infected individuals who have not been vaccinated, and

(3)previously infected and single dose vaccinated individuals. "

 

Apparently you don't even read the evidence you refer to.

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4 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

My response was full of information, he has already replied saying the something he said before.

Again, you think you are clever asking questions like I have some obligation to you.

The mRNA vaccines themselves have been administered hundreds of millions of times.

Plenty of evidence for their safety.

You don't have any obligation to answer. But since this is a public forum and you're taking part in discussion, I thought I might ask.

 

Do you know of any other mRNA vaccine in widespread use or not?

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27 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Many younger people are suffering long term medical problems due to an whole host of life choices.

 

Statistically speaking, the vast majority of healthy people have no problems in dealing with this virus.

 

It's ridiculous that people can't see this from a more holistic perspective in the midst of reaching for that "quick fix" of a jab and then doing nothing or having no conversation on proactive behavioural changes that would prevent many more deaths.

You seem to ignore the fact younger people also spread the disease. Right now, it's those under 18. Which account for over 25%of the cases now.

 

Where do you get your news from?

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