Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[Hatch]

13 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

How many times do we have to deal with this?

 

Fact:

The vaccines were formulated before the much more virulent Delta Variant arrived.

 

Fact:

Vaccinated people are nevertheless significantly less likely to become seriously ill, hospitalized or die from the new virulent strain of the COVID virus.

 

The data demonstrates the effectiveness and safety of the vaccines.

 

Thanks for mentioning the data.

 

Fact: there has not been the same vigor that would promote the boosting of our immune systems which would save many more lives to those sadly lost to covid.

 

Fact: eating wholefoods, exercise and natural immune boosting activities save lives. Not just from covid.

 

Fact: there has been much less vigor in promoting these immune boosting activities in global policy for decades.

 

Fact: current farming practices increase the chances of zoonotic virus mutations.

 

But ok. Let's focus on keeping this gravy train running and treating symptoms in a totally reactive manner instead of one based on proactivity.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Hatch said:

The data from the conclusion of stage 3 clinical trials doesn't fully exist until 2023.

 

Natural immunity coming from what is statistically speaking coming from asymptomatic natural infection, not from severe illness.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220322943

 

Refer to places that have high uptake of vaccine and explain why cases are rising? 

 

 

 

Hogwash.

 

Approaching 6 billion vaccinations a number rising by tens of millions per day.

 

Safe and effective.

 

As for your ‘statistically speaking’ and ‘asymptomatic natural infection’ - There it is, the gaping hole in your argument.

 

These are the ‘statistics’ that omit the seriously ill, the hospitalized and the dead.

 

Come on, the door is wide open.

 

Present the evidence that the vaccines are not significantly reducing  serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths from COVID.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Hatch said:

So... Research continues hey?

It does and it keeps coming up with the same result.

 

Unvaccinated people are at significantly higher risk of serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID than are people who are vaccinated against the disease.

[Hatch]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Hogwash.

 

Approaching 6 billion vaccinations a number rising by tens of millions per day.

 

Safe and effective.

 

As for your ‘statistically speaking’ and ‘asymptomatic natural infection’ - There it is, the gaping hole in your argument.

 

These are the ‘statistics’ that omit the seriously ill, the hospitalized and the dead.

 

Come on, the door is wide open.

 

Present the evidence that the vaccines are not significantly reducing  serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths from COVID.

 

 

Fact: most positive cases of covid come from asymptomatic positives.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220322943

 

Fact: you cannot know the prevalence of antibodies in the community without testing for them.

https://institute.global/policy/antibody-testing-tool-pandemic-management

 

What I'm saying is that to focus on vaccination as *the* reason is a simplification without foundation.

 

 

[pomchop]

You can claim a "religious exemption"....hope you don't take aspirin or Tylenol.....go ahead be delusional it is your "right" to be an idiot.

 

 

One of the religious exemption arguments being used is the concern fetal cells are used in the development of the vaccine

Dr. James Lawler, an infectious disease expert at the University of Nebraska Medical Center and a practicing Catholic, said vaccines do not contain fetal cells.

What they do contain are fetal cell lines, which are cells grown in a lab,  based on fetal cells from decades ago. They are used in testing and research for more than just the COVID vaccine. These cell lines are used in many other vaccines and commonly used drugs.

Because of that connection, Conway Regional Health System CEO Matt Troup said the healthcare system now asks those submitting a religious exemption to sign an acknowledgment form.

“It caused us to take a step back and ponder, do people really understand how ubiquitous the use of fetal cells is either in the development or the testing is very common in everyday medicines,” said Troup.

The Arkansas-based hospital’s form lists common medications, like Tylenol, Aspirin, Motrin, and asks the employee to acknowledge these medicines are also made the same way the COVID vaccine is, and therefore they agree to not take these medicines either.

 

[Hatch]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

It does and it keeps coming up with the same result.

 

Unvaccinated people are at significantly higher risk of serious illness, hospitalization and death from COVID than are people who are vaccinated against the disease.

So are people that are obese. Should we mandate and incentivize them to have gastric bands fitted?

[Tanomazu]

20 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

How many times do we have to deal with this?

 

Fact:

The vaccines were formulated before the much more virulent Delta Variant arrived.

 

Fact:

Vaccinated people are nevertheless significantly less likely to become seriously ill, hospitalized or die from the new virulent strain of the COVID virus.

 

The data demonstrates the effectiveness and safety of the vaccines.

 

Thanks for mentioning the data.

 

Well, 0.49 times less likely to be infected, okay. I suppose that is significant.

 

However, in terms of safety, do you remember Thalidomide? It took 5 years until the dangers of Thalidomide led to its withdrawal in the UK. For years that drug was considered safe.

 

Seems a bit early to judge the vaccines are safe.

[thepdru]

6 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Fact: there has not been the same vigor that would promote the boosting of our immune systems which would save many more lives to those sadly lost to covid.

 

Fact: eating wholefoods, exercise and natural immune boosting activities save lives. Not just from covid.

 

Fact: there has been much less vigor in promoting these immune boosting activities in global policy for decades.

 

Fact: current farming practices increase the chances of zoonotic virus mutations.

 

But ok. Let's focus on keeping this gravy train running and treating symptoms in a totally reactive manner instead of one based on proactivity.

 

 

 

SO TRUE ! Nowhere in the world any government tried to push its people to be more healthy !

what ? they didn't have enough time ? in 2 years obese people would not be obese anymore...

it's so incredible that you all just support taking medicine and vaccination when so many better solutions should have been used first !!

and then you wonder why we consider you like cattle ! poor you ! so sad for your kids and family if you have any.

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Fact: there has not been the same vigor that would promote the boosting of our immune systems which would save many more lives to those sadly lost to covid.

 

Fact: eating wholefoods, exercise and natural immune boosting activities save lives. Not just from covid.

 

Fact: there has been much less vigor in promoting these immune boosting activities in global policy for decades.

 

Fact: current farming practices increase the chances of zoonotic virus mutations.

 

But ok. Let's focus on keeping this gravy train running and treating symptoms in a totally reactive manner instead of one based on proactivity.

 

I thought we were having a rational discussion.

 

Acquiring sufficient natural immunity within a population to defeat this virus would result in overloading health services and death rates very much higher than currently experienced.

 

The rest of your post is off topic, though perhaps illuminating.

[thepdru]

Just now, Tanomazu said:

Well, 0.49 times less likely to be infected, okay. I suppose that is significant.

 

However, in terms of safety, do you remember Thalidomide? It took 5 years until the dangers of Thalidomide led to its withdrawal in the UK. For years that drug was considered safe.

 

Seems a bit early to judge the vaccines are safe.

 

OFFICIAL FACT: we can estimate knowing everything about medicine side effects after 4 years... including vaccines.

now make your own research, it's annoying to explain you what you should be able to find and understand by yourself.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Fact: most positive cases of covid come from asymptomatic positives.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220322943

 

Fact: you cannot know the prevalence of antibodies in the community without testing for them.

https://institute.global/policy/antibody-testing-tool-pandemic-management

 

What I'm saying is that to focus on vaccination as *the* reason is a simplification without foundation.

 

 

If you ever get to attend any stats classes, press the tutor to explain ‘population sampling’ to you.

 

 

[thepdru]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I thought we were having a rational discussion.

 

Acquiring sufficient natural immunity within a population to defeat this virus would result in overloading health services and death rates very much higher than currently experienced.

 

The rest of your post is off topic, though perhaps illuminating.

 

yes the simple truth is off topic for illuminated provass...

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, thepdru said:

 

OFFICIAL FACT: we can estimate knowing everything about medicine side effects after 4 years... including vaccines.

now make your own research, it's annoying to explain you what you should be able to find and understand by yourself.

 

 

Well we can’t just dream them up either.

[Hatch]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

I thought we were having a rational discussion.

 

Acquiring sufficient natural immunity within a population to defeat this virus would result in overloading health services and death rates very much higher than currently experienced.

 

The rest of your post is off topic, though perhaps illuminating.

That's totally hypothetical since your control group are typically eating processed foods, not exercising, and now being locked down and starving them of immune boosting vitamin d in the process.

 

If you really see the interventions I've listed as off topic to our suseptability to severe illness to virus and whole host of other conditions I simply don't know what to say to you.

 

I'm staggered. 

[Hatch]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If you ever get to attend any stats classes, press the tutor to explain ‘population sampling’ to you.

 

 

Mockery doesn't win merit in discussion. 

[Scott]

8 hours ago, thepdru said:

 

so we also have to vaccinate them ? it's 100% sure because some officials said it ?

I hope we also vaccinate kids at birth, as it seems to be just what you all want !

 

 

I find it bewildering how anyone can read the statistics and studies and come up with a statement like that.  The EVIDENCE for pregnant women is well documented and that is the reason for many countries trying to get them vaccinated.   Under normal circumstances, vaccines are never given at birth.  Why would advocate for something that is truly untested on a newborn baby?

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, Hatch said:

That's totally hypothetical since your control group are typically eating processed foods, not exercising, and now being locked down and starving them of immune boosting vitamin d in the process.

 

If you really see the interventions I've listed as off topic to our suseptability to severe illness to virus and whole host of other conditions I simply don't know what to say to you.

 

I'm staggered. 

How’s about starting a thread on the efficacy of eating nuts and berries in the fight against COVID.

 

Meanwhile, you’ve argued here for natural immunity based on ‘statistics’ that ignore serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

And you aren’t able to produce any data to refute the effectiveness of vaccines in reducing serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Well, 0.49 times less likely to be infected, okay. I suppose that is significant.

 

However, in terms of safety, do you remember Thalidomide? It took 5 years until the dangers of Thalidomide led to its withdrawal in the UK. For years that drug was considered safe.

 

Seems a bit early to judge the vaccines are safe.

Thalidomide was a medication, not a vaccine. A chemical. Unlike vaccines, medications are repeatedly ingested or injected into a patient..  So there is a history of medications causing illness.  There is nothing in the history of vaccinations of symptoms arising years after inoculation. No plausible mechanism has been proposed. On the other hand, there is a history of at least one viral disease resulting in new symptoms and death years after infection. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/post-polio-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20355669

[Hatch]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

How’s about starting a thread on the efficacy of eating nuts and berries in the fight against COVID.

 

Meanwhile, you’ve argued here for natural immunity based on ‘statistics’ that ignore serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

And you aren’t able to produce any data to refute the effectiveness of vaccines in reducing serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

I'm not attempting to refute anything. I'm simply saying there are less drastic interventions that would have more wide reaching affects than reaching for the shringe and fast tracking due process.

 

Your condescending tone doesn't make your points any stronger.

[placeholder]

24 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Fact: most positive cases of covid come from asymptomatic positives.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220322943

 

Fact: you cannot know the prevalence of antibodies in the community without testing for them.

https://institute.global/policy/antibody-testing-tool-pandemic-management

 

What I'm saying is that to focus on vaccination as *the* reason is a simplification without foundation.

 

 

No foundation? Really? Here's the latest evidence to show how nonsensical your assertion is.

Pennsylvania releases new COVID-19 data on breakthrough cases

97 percent of COVID-19-related deaths were in unvaccinated or not fully vaccinated people. Among a total of 6,472 COVID-19-related deaths identified in Pennsylvania in 2021, the latest data shows 213, or 3 percent, post-vaccination deaths identified. Cumulative death incidence among the unvaccinated and not fully vaccinated was 7.9 times as high as the death incidence among the fully vaccinated.

https://www.wgal.com/article/pennsylvania-new-covid-data-breakthrough-cases/37618865

 

[Hatch]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

No foundation? Really? Here's the latest evidence to show how nonsensical your assertion is.

Pennsylvania releases new COVID-19 data on breakthrough cases

97 percent of COVID-19-related deaths were in unvaccinated or not fully vaccinated people. Among a total of 6,472 COVID-19-related deaths identified in Pennsylvania in 2021, the latest data shows 213, or 3 percent, post-vaccination deaths identified. Cumulative death incidence among the unvaccinated and not fully vaccinated was 7.9 times as high as the death incidence among the fully vaccinated.

https://www.wgal.com/article/pennsylvania-new-covid-data-breakthrough-cases/37618865

 

You have power phrased what I said to try and make a point based upon simplification again.

 

In the study you list, how many were tested for antibodies that were derived from natural infection?

 

They would reduce the occurrence of severe illness in exactly the same way you are inferring with the vaccine.

 

Except you are saying the vaccine is responsible.

 

It is not the only factor at play.

 

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Hatch said:

I'm not attempting to refute anything. I'm simply saying there are less drastic interventions that would have more wide reaching affects than reaching for the shringe and fast tracking due process.

 

Your condescending tone doesn't make your points any stronger.

Right now in the middle of a pandemic this is how you propose to tackle the problem? That's like suggesting you install a sprinkler system in your house when it's on fire.

That's a long term public health problem that would requires years to implement. And of course, right wingers would approach any effective steps to achieve this as nanny state intervention. I remember when Mayor Bloomberg banned the use of trans fats in NYC. Howls of indignations arose from conservatives. 

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Hatch said:

You have power phrased what I said to try and make a point based upon simplification again.

 

In the study you list, how many were tested for antibodies that were derived from natural infection?

 

They would reduce the occurrence of severe illness in exactly the same way you are inferring with the vaccine.

 

Except you are saying the vaccine is responsible.

 

It is not the only factor at play.

 

That is utterly irrelevant to the question of percentage of deaths due to being unvaccinated. Or are you suggesting that the best way to prevent dying from covid is to be infected with covid?

[Tanomazu]

22 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Thalidomide was a medication, not a vaccine. A chemical. Unlike vaccines, medications are repeatedly ingested or injected into a patient..  So there is a history of medications causing illness.  There is nothing in the history of vaccinations of symptoms arising years after inoculation. No plausible mechanism has been proposed. On the other hand, there is a history of at least one viral disease resulting in new symptoms and death years after infection. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/post-polio-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20355669

Vaccines are not repeatedly injected? Okay. Sounds like you're in the know about this.

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Vaccines are not repeatedly injected? Okay. Sounds like you're in the know about this.

Well, I guess if you count twice over a spacce of several weeks as repeatedly.  Or a booster ever 6 months. But nothing like the daily or multiple daily doses common to medications.

[Jeffr2]

6 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Vaccines are not repeatedly injected? Okay. Sounds like you're in the know about this.

They may be injected again. But typically after a long time. Like for  rabies or if needed, hep A/B.

[Hatch]

13 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Right now in the middle of a pandemic this is how you propose to tackle the problem? That's like suggesting you install a sprinkler system in your house when it's on fire.

That's a long term public health problem that would requires years to implement. 

Like a vaccine normally does? - years to develop. 

 

It's surprising what can be achieved when there is the will to do so isn't it?

 

It wouldn't take long at all to ensure that the populations aren't deficient in vitamin d. Especially in light of lockdown. Why not?

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n544/rr-5

 

Why the sudden fascination about reaching for the shringe to fix what is a byproduct of what's wrong on a more holistic sense.

 

I feel it all depends on where the priorities and incentives are on what action is taken.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Hatch said:

Like a vaccine normally does? - years to develop. 

 

It's surprising what can be achieved when there is the will to do so isn't it?

 

It wouldn't take long at all to ensure that the populations aren't deficient in vitamin d. Especially in light of lockdown. Why not?

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n544/rr-5

 

Why the sudden fascination about reaching for the shringe to fix what is a byproduct of what's wrong on a more holistic sense.

 

I feel it all depends on where the priorities and incentives are on what action is taken.

Getting people to change their habits is very difficult and requires a prolonged campaign of public health. There is some evidence that increased levels Vitamin D can help protect against Covid. Particularly for Black people.

https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/forefront/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/vitamin-d-covid-study

But it's still nowhere nearly as effective as vaccines.

[Hatch]

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

That is utterly irrelevant to the question of percentage of deaths due to being unvaccinated. Or are you suggesting that the best way to prevent dying from covid is to be infected with covid?

Read what I said in my previous post. It was already clear enough.

 

The best way of not dieing from covid is to have a strong immune system.

 

The best way to avoid the zoonotic mutations resulting in possible pandemics like covid is to change our behaviour.

[Tanomazu]

43 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Thalidomide was a medication, not a vaccine. A chemical. Unlike vaccines, medications are repeatedly ingested or injected into a patient..  So there is a history of medications causing illness.  There is nothing in the history of vaccinations of symptoms arising years after inoculation. No plausible mechanism has been proposed. On the other hand, there is a history of at least one viral disease resulting in new symptoms and death years after infection. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/post-polio-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20355669

Respiratory syncytial virus (RSV): This pervasive respiratory virus has proven resistant to vaccination. Children treated with one vaccine in the 1960s developed an enhanced form of the disease, suffering high fever, bronchopneumonia, and wheezing. Many were hospitalized and two died

 

Dengue fever: The Philippines halted a school-based vaccination program in 2017 after reports of complications and several deaths linked to the product, Dengvaxia. The French manufacturer, Sanofi Pasteur, later said the vaccine posed a risk to people without prior infection from one of the disease’s four stereotypes, actually increasing the risk that the child would contract a more severe form of the disease.

 

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/here-s-why-we-can-t-rush-covid-19-vaccine

 

In what became known as the Cutter incident, some lots of the Cutter vaccine—despite passing required safety tests—contained live polio virus in what was supposed to be an inactivated-virus vaccine. Cutter withdrew its vaccine from the market on April 27 after vaccine-associated cases were reported.

 

The mistake produced 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that contained live polio virus. Of children who received the vaccine, 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed paralytic poliomyelitis—and of these, five children died from polio.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Tanomazu