Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[Tanomazu]

7 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

You don't understand what you quoted.

You don't understand the basics of how mRNA vaccines work. In addition you are confused about what natural immunity means and refuse to concede that natural immunity confers longer lasting immunity than the vaccines, which the latest study have found.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

In addition you think you can predict what mRNA vaccine will cause 5 years into the future, lol. Sorry, you're deluded and not believable in the slightest.

[Jeffr2]

7 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

What a load of hogwash!

 

Very obviously the question was about "natural" immunity vs vaccine induced immunity. Of course natural immunity can only happen once you have been infected. That is natural immunity, ie not vaccine-induced immunity.

 

The study CLEARLY concluded that natural immunity is stronger than vaccine induced immunity. That's what the author's clearly say themselves. Obviously you don't even understand what natural immunity means.

 

"Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Just because it's published means nothing. Lots of bs studies are put u online.

[Hatch]

2 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

 

Same study, same misrepresentation by you.

From the link you provided:

"(1)SARS-CoV-2-naïve individuals who received a two-dose regimen of the BioNTech/Pfizer mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine,

(2)previously infected individuals who have not been vaccinated, and

(3)previously infected and single dose vaccinated individuals. "

 

Apparently you don't even read the evidence you refer to.

And how is this research without any merit. Educate me.

 

 

[cdemundo]

1 minute ago, Tanomazu said:

You don't understand the basics of how mRNA vaccines work. In addition you are confused about what natural immunity means and refuse to concede that natural immunity confers longer lasting immunity than the vaccines, which the latest study have found.

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

In addition you think you can predict what mRNA vaccine will cause 5 years into the future, lol. Sorry, you're deluded and not believable in the slightest.

I believe that you are not being clear about what the study you quote is saying about natural immunity.

If you want to be clear and say that you are referring to the natural immunity as a result of having had COVID, you can find studies that indicate that.

I think when most people use the phrase "natural immunity" they are talking about their immunity to an initial infection by COVID.

[Tanomazu]

7 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

And many studies showing the path to herd immunity will cost millions of lives. If it can ever be achieved. Which is doubtful.

And going down this vaccine path has not cost millions of lives?

 

And now it looks, looking at Israel, as if the vaccine path can not confer the immunity we all hoped it would, because Israel, which has taken up vaccines faster than anybody else, in greater numbers than anybody else, has nonetheless seen record numbers of Covid now.

 

Even in the UK, another vaccine overachiever, we now see the government is talking about the possibility of re-introducing corona restrictions due fears of a fourth wave and rising numbers.

 

Meanwhile the latest studies tell us natural immunity is longer lasting than vaccine immunity. Hmmm....

[Hatch]

7 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

You seem to ignore the fact younger people also spread the disease. Right now, it's those under 18. Which account for over 25%of the cases now.

 

Where do you get your news from?

That is still no basis for vaccination of that age group since the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission.

 

Severe illness in those age groups are very uncommon.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-89615-4

[cdemundo]

9 minutes ago, Hatch said:

And how is this research without any merit. Educate me.

 

 

My response is the same, most people use the phrase "natural immunity" to their immunity to a first infection with COVID.

This study is comparing the immunity of people who have been previously infect to vaccinated people.

You are using the term "natural immunity" to apply to people who have been previously infected.

In the large type quote you include, the study uses the term after making clear that the study was concerning the natural immune response of people having previously contracted the virus.

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by cdemundo

[Tanomazu]

3 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

I believe that you are not being clear about what the study you quote is saying about natural immunity.

If you want to be clear and say that you are referring to the natural immunity as a result of having had COVID, you can find studies that indicate that.

I think when most people use the phrase "natural immunity" they are talking about their immunity to an initial infection by COVID.

No, I don't think people are that stupid. Obviously natural immunity can only happen after an infection, that's very obvious.  I quoted the authors and gave the link to the study. I fail to see how one possibly be any clearer.

 

"Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant."

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

 

[Hatch]

Just now, cdemundo said:

My response is the same, most people use the phrase "natural immunity" to their immunity to a first infection with COVID.

This study is comparing the immunity of people who have been previously infect to vaccinated people.

You are using the term "natural immunity" to apply to people who have been previously infected.

In the large type quote you include, the study uses the term after making clear that the study was concerning the natural immune response of people having previously contracted the virus.

 

And so in this context, why do you think that there has not been any vigorous effort to test for antibodies derived from previous infection?

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, Hatch said:

That is still no basis for vaccination of that age group since the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission.

 

Severe illness in those age groups are very uncommon.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-89615-4

Severe illness is indeed rare. But it's proven they spread the virus. Thus, the need for the vaccine.

 

Are you an anti vaxxer? Serious question.

[Hatch]

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Severe illness is indeed rare. But it's proven they spread the virus. Thus, the need for the vaccine.

 

Are you an anti vaxxer? Serious question.

Vaccinated people contracting covid have similar viral loads to unvaccinated (with the Delta variant). This was previously the correlation used to guage transmissibility.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1

 

I am not anti vax. It's just not the first thing I reach for when seeking solutions.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Hatch
To add clarity: (with the Delta variant)

[pomchop]

Go ahead and continue to trust internet experts and conspiracy theories rather than go get the damn shots that have been proven in millions upon millions of doses to save countless lives and almost eliminate hospitalizations with a very tiny number of adverse reactions.....go ahead and refuse to help put the entire covid pandemic behind us and screw up the economies and  cause untold hardships worldwide rather than bury your ego and your "expertise" and do what doctors and scientists who study virus and diseases for decades recommend.

 

Get the damn shots.  Please.

[Hatch]

4 minutes ago, pomchop said:

Go ahead and continue to trust internet experts and conspiracy theories rather than go get the damn shots that have been proven in millions upon millions of doses to save countless lives and almost eliminate hospitalizations with a very tiny number of adverse reactions.....go ahead and refuse to help put the entire covid pandemic behind us and screw up the economies and  cause untold hardships worldwide rather than bury your ego and your "expertise" and do what doctors and scientists who study virus and diseases for decades recommend.

 

Get the damn shots.  Please.

There are no internet experts I can see posting anything but citations from the types of experts you reference in your post.

[Tanomazu]

7 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

I believe that you are not being clear about what the study you quote is saying about natural immunity.

If you want to be clear and say that you are referring to the natural immunity as a result of having had COVID, you can find studies that indicate that.

I think when most people use the phrase "natural immunity" they are talking about their immunity to an initial infection by COVID.

No, I don't think people are that stupid. Obviously natural immunity can only happen after an infection, that's very obvious.  I quoted the authors and gave the link to the study. I fail to see how one possibly be any clearer.

 

"Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant."

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Tanomazu said:

Maybe I can be of help here:

 

"Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity."

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

So, yes. There is evidence. Clearly you're not aware of it.

You conveniently failed to note this:

 "Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant."

And, of course, the morgues are full of people who counted on acquiring immunity naturally. Comparatively few among the dead were fully vaccinated.

What is so difficult to understand about the fact that the vast majority of deaths are among the unvaccinated? 

 

[Hatch]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You conveniently failed to note this:

 "Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant."

And, of course, the morgues are full of people who counted on acquiring immunity naturally. Comparatively few among the dead were fully vaccinated.

What is so difficult to understand about the fact that the vast majority of deaths are among the unvaccinated? 

 

I don't think he failed to note anything since he posted a citation to the full paper.

[cdemundo]

20 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

No, I don't think people are that stupid. Obviously natural immunity can only happen after an infection, that's very obvious.  I quoted the authors and gave the link to the study. I fail to see how one possibly be any clearer.

 

"Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant."

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

 

OK so we can agree that natural immunity after an infection by COVID may be higher than the immunity from a vaccination.

So what is your point?

Are you saying that the way to avoid getting COVID is by getting COVID?

That seems to be the implication.

 

[Tanomazu]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You conveniently failed to note this:

 "Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant."

And, of course, the morgues are full of people who counted on acquiring immunity naturally. Comparatively few among the dead were fully vaccinated.

What is so difficult to understand about the fact that the vast majority of deaths are among the unvaccinated? 

 

No, I didn't fail note it, I've literally just posted that above. Plus provided a link to the study. So, no.

 

 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Hatch said:

There you go again in your drive for simplification through pigeon holing.

 

It's one or the other only?

 

I think there is broad medical consensus that having a strong immune system helps the body fight, well.. Everything.

 

Have you got any evidence to the contrary before you reach for that shringe?

You're the one who claimed that having a strong immune system is the best protection. Clearly the huge discrepancy in  mortality results  between the vaccinated and unvaccinated show otherwise. If virtually everyone in the USA who could be vaccinated was vaccinated, the Covid pandemic would long be over.

It would be great if everyone led healthier lives. And it would greatly reduce covid mortality.  But it's a slow solution. Once again, if your house is on fire, that's no time to install a sprinkler system.

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Hatch said:

I don't think he failed to note anything since he posted a citation to the full paper.

Just because he posted a citation, doesn't mean he read the entire article. Or maybe he read it and omitted it. Whatever the reason, that piece of evidence is certainly favorable towards vaccinations, is it not?

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

No, I didn't fail note it, I've literally just posted that above. Plus provided a link to the study. So, no.

 

 

Yet you failed to note that piece of evidence.

[placeholder]

And there is evidence supporting the notion of super-immunity. Immunity so powerful it even extends to other sorts of covid viruses. Like Sars 1. It's found among those who have both been naturally infected and then have been inoculated with a vaccine.

New Studies Find Evidence Of 'Superhuman' Immunity To COVID-19 In Some Individuals

So who is capable of mounting this "superhuman" or "hybrid" immune response?

People who have had a "hybrid" exposure to the virus. Specifically, they were infected with the coronavirus in 2020 and then immunized with mRNA vaccines this year.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, Hatch said:

The point is, since most positive infections are from asymptomatic cases, these people will have better immunity than the vaccinated.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220322943

 

So why are you ignoring this?

 

 

First off, you have to not die to benefit from natural acquired immunity. That may be a minor issue to you, but not so much to hospitals where the ICUs are overloaded with the unvaccinated. But isn't it great news that if you do get infected, and then vaccinated, it looks like you will enjoy an extraordinarily high degree of protection? Even against viruses that were created to evade the protections afforded by antibodies.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals

Edited September 16, 2021 by placeholder

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Hatch said:

 

How would we know since there has been little effort made in testing for the prevalence of antibodies derived from natural infection?

 

The goal is to get antibodies into as many people as possible (globally).

 

Why the precondition amongst many on this forum to reach for the vaccine without first judging where we're at with natural immunity and which parts of the populations would benefit the most from antibodies through vaccination?

Did you read the article? It compares the response of people who have both acquired just natural immunity against those who have acquired both natural immunity and been vaccinated. 

[Hatch]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

First off, you have to not die to benefit from natural acquired immunity. That may be a minor issue to you, but not so much to hospitals where the ICUs are overloaded with the unvaccinated. But isn't it great news that if you do get infected, and then vaccinated, it looks like you will enjoy an extraordinarily high degree of protection? Even against viruses that were created to evade the protections afforded by antibodies.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals

Statistics will help you put this into perspective.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-89615-4

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Hatch said:

Statistics will help you put this into perspective.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-89615-4

This is about how age affects the consequences of being infected. It has nothing to do with superimmunity. And exactly what does it have to do with intensive care units in hospitals being maxxed out due to those with severe symptoms being treated?

[Hatch]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Did you read the article? It compares the response of people who have both acquired just natural immunity against those who have acquired both natural immunity and been vaccinated. 

Yes I read it. Natural immunity from prior infection is longer lasting and more wide ranging than a double jab.

 

Why not redirect those vaccines to those in greater need of them?

[Hatch]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

This is about how age affects the consequences of being infected. It has nothing to do with superimmunity. And exactly what does it have to do with intensive care units in hospitals being maxxed out due to those with severe symptoms being treated?

The point was to put into perspective the risk of death by age range and by extension of that, from what basis are those with lower risk profiles are they being subjected to vaccination whilst not even testing for natural immunity from prior infection?

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Hatch said:

The point was to put into perspective the risk of death by age range and by extension of that, from what basis are those with lower risk profiles are they being subjected to vaccination whilst not even testing for natural immunity from prior infection?

Well, for one thing, it promises to stop them from becoming infected in the future from later variants.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, Tanomazu said:

And going down this vaccine path has not cost millions of lives?

 

And now it looks, looking at Israel, as if the vaccine path can not confer the immunity we all hoped it would, because Israel, which has taken up vaccines faster than anybody else, in greater numbers than anybody else, has nonetheless seen record numbers of Covid now.

 

Even in the UK, another vaccine overachiever, we now see the government is talking about the possibility of re-introducing corona restrictions due fears of a fourth wave and rising numbers.

 

Meanwhile the latest studies tell us natural immunity is longer lasting than vaccine immunity. Hmmm....

Please show a link proving vaccines have cost millions of lives. Otherwise, don't put up misinformation. It helps no one. Terrible .

 

You're totally wrong about Israel. Where do you get your information from?