Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[Tanomazu]

6 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Jeez. Higher cases due to a variety of factors. Wearing off of the vaccine, most of whom were elderly or had underlying conditions. These groups were vaccinated first.

 

Super spreader events from unvaccinated school children. And the same with unvaccinated adults

 

Why do you constantly deny the severity of this virus or the effectiveness of the jabs? It gets old. Fast.

The age of the Israeli population is not the issue at all. The issue is that the vaccines Israel used only offered 49% protection against the Delta variant, so 51% of the vaccinated still got infected.

 

It's not that the vaccine "wore off", it was designed for different variants and is only 49% effective against the Delta variant which is causing record number of cases in Israel, despite the 80% double vaccination of adults.

 

I am not denying the effectiveness of the virus, I am giving you precise figures for their effectiveness against the Delta variant based on studies done by Imperial College in the UK.

 

The vaccines are 49% effective against the Delta variant. Which is a problem, because it means the vaccines do not stop the pandemic. As Israel has found out.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/08/04/fully-vaccinated-half-as-likely-to-catch-delta-covid-variant-and-less-likely-to-infect-others-study-finds/?sh=2b206a12281c

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

I'm not misrepresenting facts at all. You are misrepresenting my posts as misrepresentations. In fact 49% is not a "simplification".

 

"The researchers estimated that two doses of a Covid-19 vaccine are 49% effective at preventing infection with the delta variant, in line with recent data from Israel and much lower than previous estimates."

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/08/04/fully-vaccinated-half-as-likely-to-catch-delta-covid-variant-and-less-likely-to-infect-others-study-finds/?sh=2b206a12281c

 

So those vaccinated are 0.49 times less likely to be infected. Mortality rate is still 1.4% globally.

Yes 49% effective at preventing infection.

 

And for those who are vaccinated but nevertheless get infected, they are significantly less likely to become seriously ill, hospitalized or die from COVID.

 

Your simplified 49% fails to address this.

 

Now let’s be having your evidence that those who are vaccinated are not at a significantly reduced risk of becoming seriously ill, hospitalized or dying from COVID?!

 

Show us your evidence!

Edited September 17, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

This is fantastic misinformation. Since studies have shown that the vaccines only provide 49% protection against the D variant it is very obvious that vaccinations do not prevent mass spread of the virus, as indeed we have seen with Israel, a country where 80% of adults received two doses, yet which still saw record number of cases.

 

How can you possibly make such a statement that the pandemic would be over if everyone had the vaccine? That's what we hoped for, but it looks very clearly like that is not the case.

Your comment reflects a typical anti covid vaxxer's misunderstanding of the statistics. "Cases" just refers to those who are infected. It says nothing about the severity of the symptoms. Instead of hospital ICU's being overwhelmed with patients, the consequences of being infected would be similar those of being infected with the flu. When was the last time hospital ICUs were overwhelmed because of the flu?  I don't understand why this is so hard for some people to wrap their minds around.

 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

I'm not misrepresenting facts at all. You are misrepresenting my posts as misrepresentations. In fact 49% is not a "simplification".

 

"The researchers estimated that two doses of a Covid-19 vaccine are 49% effective at preventing infection with the delta variant, in line with recent data from Israel and much lower than previous estimates."

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/08/04/fully-vaccinated-half-as-likely-to-catch-delta-covid-variant-and-less-likely-to-infect-others-study-finds/?sh=2b206a12281c

 

So those vaccinated are 0.49 times less likely to be infected. Mortality rate is still 1.4% globally.

So, you cite how effective the vaccine is at reducing cases in Israel, but then you jump to global figures to refer to mortality. How do global figures of vaccination levels compare to those of Israel?  Can you share with us the mortality figures of those Israelis who are vaccinated and compare them to those who are not? Do you understand that until a short while ago Israeli vaccinations stalled out thanks to the reluctance of a few sectors of the population to get vaccinated? 

4

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/israel?country=

I used to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you really didn't understand the difference between cases and mortality. But when you blatantly pull a stunt like citing the cases in Israel but then jump to global levels of mortality, that no longer is a viable explanation.

[pomchop]

If all the anti vaxx bunch would simply get the shot covid would soon be controlled and we could go back to some semblance of life without major covid disruptions.  You can be part of the solution or you can continue to be part of the problem. 

 

Contrary to anti vaxx arguments that their "freedom" to not get the shot affects no one but themselves is simply not true.....it impacts millions of people whose shops are closed and who are hanging on by a tread.  It impacts millions of doctors and nurses who are in melt down after months of working to save the mostly unvaccinated patients.  It impacts insurance rates, taxes, mental health.  It impacts schools abilities to have in person learning.  

 

Why not TRY and be part of the solution and perhaps feel good that your actions are helping us all end the major impacts of covid?

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, pomchop said:

If all the anti vaxx bunch would simply get the shot covid would soon be controlled and we could go back to some semblance of life without major covid disruptions.  You can be part of the solution or you can continue to be part of the problem. 

 

Contrary to anti vaxx arguments that their "freedom" to not get the shot affects no one but themselves is simply not true.....it impacts millions of people whose shops are closed and who are hanging on by a tread.  It impacts millions of doctors and nurses who are in melt down after months of working to save the mostly unvaccinated patients.  It impacts insurance rates, taxes, mental health.  It impacts schools abilities to have in person learning.  

 

Why not TRY and be part of the solution and perhaps feel good that your actions are helping us all end the major impacts of covid?

But what about their freedom to paralyze health care systems?

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

But what about their freedom to paralyze health care systems?

It's not that at all. They will say that three guys they know got covid and took ivermectin and didn't die. So, obviously, ivermectin is an effective treatment. Even the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid that they believe this tripe. It's all political. All their circuitous, anti-science arguments and conspiracy theories are about hiding their real agenda. It's just politics. Nothing more than that. We waste our time trying to appeal to logic and reason.

[DavisH]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

But what about their freedom to paralyze health care systems?

The often go "oh it's got a 99% survival rate. Well that 1% (+all the others that need hospitalisation), can easily over run hospitals. Modelling from Sydney, NSW, showed cases there would have easly hit 600K cases with no lockdown. They have a handful of deaths per day, yet their hospitals are fully stretched. Beyond that point, is when people who need an ICU because of disease or accident cannot get it because they are full of covid patients. 

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It's not that at all. They will say that three guys they know got covid and took ivermectin and didn't die. So, obviously, ivermectin is an effective treatment. Even the anti-vaxxers aren't that stupid that they believe this tripe. It's all political. All their circuitous, anti-science arguments and conspiracy theories are about hiding their real agenda. It's just politics. Nothing more than that. We waste our time trying to appeal to logic and reason.

It’s not a case of appealing to the logic of anti-vaxxers, as you rightly point out they simply line up the next nonsense.

 

Rather it’s about exposing and challenging their misinformation and outright falsehoods.

 

This particular sub forum is a very important source of information for expats seeking information on the here to get vaccines and other expat related COVID questions.

 

It is important that the anti vaxxer misinformation and falsehoods are not left unchallenged.

 

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

12 minutes ago, DavisH said:

The often go "oh it's got a 99% survival rate. Well that 1% (+all the others that need hospitalisation), can easily over run hospitals. Modelling from Sydney, NSW, showed cases there would have easly hit 600K cases with no lockdown. They have a handful of deaths per day, yet their hospitals are fully stretched. Beyond that point, is when people who need an ICU because of disease or accident cannot get it because they are full of covid patients. 

How many of these patients were hanging on by a thread before the covid virus was detected? The old and sick should be vaccinated, but what about the young and healthy, they should take the vaccine to help Others, be a team player and inject that experimental juice in their arm. And if these covid patients were vaccinated then why are they in a hospital if the vaccine works. I'm scheduled for Phizer, just to get along I'll take it. Doesn't mean I think everyone is obligated to.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, EVENKEEL said:

How many of these patients were hanging on by a thread before the covid virus was detected? The old and sick should be vaccinated, but what about the young and healthy, they should take the vaccine to help Others, be a team player and inject that experimental juice in their arm. And if these covid patients were vaccinated then why are they in a hospital if the vaccine works. I'm scheduled for Phizer, just to get along I'll take it. Doesn't mean I think everyone is obligated to.

Do you understand that the vast majority of those who die from Covid are unvaccinated? The state of Pennsylvania just released it's latest report and 97% of those who died were unvaccinated. This is in line with other reports. And then there are excess mortality figures. You have a problem with them, too?

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

How many of these patients were hanging on by a thread before the covid virus was detected? The old and sick should be vaccinated, but what about the young and healthy, they should take the vaccine to help Others, be a team player and inject that experimental juice in their arm. And if these covid patients were vaccinated then why are they in a hospital if the vaccine works. I'm scheduled for Phizer, just to get along I'll take it. Doesn't mean I think everyone is obligated to.

The question you should be asking is, if you have so many doubts over the vaccine why are you taking it?

 

Or is this another example of not minding consequences of this disease being visited on others so long as Jack’s alright?

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Or is this another example of not minding consequences of this disease being visited on others so long as Jack’s alright?

You mean, like this?

 

[EVENKEEL]

15 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The question you should be asking is, if you have so many doubts over the vaccine why are you taking it?

 

Or is this another example of not minding consequences of this disease being visited on others so long as Jack’s alright?

Read my post again maybe. I've been jabbed with every possible juice for last 20 yrs to keep my job. Those include small pox and anthrax to be able to work in Middle East. I'll take the covid experimental juice to make travel easier. Just because the FDA gives approval doesn't mean squat about long term side effects which aren't known yet.

[ozimoron]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

I think it means a lot about the potential for long term side effects. Your trying to imply that the FDA never asked themselves what could go wrong? It's not like mRNA technology wasn't tested on humans over 10 years ago so there is some basis for confidence. On the other hand you have not even a scintilla of evidence that there are long term side effects and disingenuously trying to convince others that there is some. You yourself have admitted you would take it just for convenience. What you are doing is the very definition of spreading FUD. And for purely political reasons because there's no science in your reasoning. We don't know that an asteroid won't wipe out the planet next week but you'd go around telling people that it's going to happen because there's no absolute proof that it won't. Your stance is inane.

[Jeffr2]

10 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

The age of the Israeli population is not the issue at all. The issue is that the vaccines Israel used only offered 49% protection against the Delta variant, so 51% of the vaccinated still got infected.

 

It's not that the vaccine "wore off", it was designed for different variants and is only 49% effective against the Delta variant which is causing record number of cases in Israel, despite the 80% double vaccination of adults.

 

I am not denying the effectiveness of the virus, I am giving you precise figures for their effectiveness against the Delta variant based on studies done by Imperial College in the UK.

 

The vaccines are 49% effective against the Delta variant. Which is a problem, because it means the vaccines do not stop the pandemic. As Israel has found out.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/08/04/fully-vaccinated-half-as-likely-to-catch-delta-covid-variant-and-less-likely-to-infect-others-study-finds/?sh=2b206a12281c

Please. Stop. Constantly bashing the vaccines hello one.

[pomchop]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

How many of these patients were hanging on by a thread before the covid virus was detected? The old and sick should be vaccinated, but what about the young and healthy, they should take the vaccine to help Others, be a team player and inject that experimental juice in their arm. And if these covid patients were vaccinated then why are they in a hospital if the vaccine works. I'm scheduled for Phizer, just to get along I'll take it. Doesn't mean I think everyone is obligated to.

 You can be part of the solution or you can continue to be part of the problem. 

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

How many of these patients were hanging on by a thread before the covid virus was detected? The old and sick should be vaccinated, but what about the young and healthy, they should take the vaccine to help Others, be a team player and inject that experimental juice in their arm. And if these covid patients were vaccinated then why are they in a hospital if the vaccine works. I'm scheduled for Phizer, just to get along I'll take it. Doesn't mean I think everyone is obligated to.

Anti vaxxer and covid denier.

[Scott]

Continuing to refer to the vaccine as 'experimental' will get your posts removed.  It has been fully approved by the FDA.   Calling it experimental is misleading. 

 

[cdemundo]

15 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Yes 49% effective at preventing infection.

 

And for those who are vaccinated but nevertheless get infected, they are significantly less likely to become seriously ill, hospitalized or die from COVID.

 

Your simplified 49% fails to address this.

 

Now let’s be having your evidence that those who are vaccinated are not at a significantly reduced risk of becoming seriously ill, hospitalized or dying from COVID?!

 

Show us your evidence!

Additionally, it is not true that 49% effectiveness means that 51% of vaccinated people were symptomatic.

It means that vaccinated people had 51% reduction of risk versus unvaccinated.

 

"Vaccine effectiveness is the percent reduction in the frequency of illness among vaccinated people compared to people not vaccinated."

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectivenessqa.htm

 

Efficacy Effectiveness are apparently confusing as lots of people misinterpret them.

Docs and the media could do a better job of explaining.

But a little thinking might lead a person to question is there any group where 50% of the group gets infected?

[EVENKEEL]

6 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Anti vaxxer and covid denier.

Again, I'm disappointed with replies. When no good response can be thought of the labels come out. How very unoriginal.

[Credo]

47 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Again, I'm disappointed with replies. When no good response can be thought of the labels come out. How very unoriginal.

I don't know what you expect, but I know we aren't here to be 'original' or to give responses to meet your idea of what is good.   This thread is about people who will or won't take the vaccine and why.  

We have a reasonably good idea of the long term effects of vaccines in general.  There are very long-term studies on the traditional vaccines.  The only difference is this one substitutes some part of the Covid-19 virus in the adjunct.  Other than the occasional anaphylactic reaction by people new to vaccination, the information and data is there.   

For the mRNA vaccine, the technology has been around, and used, since the mid-1990s.   No mass produced vaccines were made from mRNA until Covid-19,  but the technology has been tested and shown to be safe.   mRNA vaccines have had previous trials for everything from influenza and Zika to HIV.  

So, we have a very good idea that all the technical information for vaccines is there.  The only difference is what viral fragment is attached to it.  For the mRNA there is none, but a messenger RNA strand that enters the cells, bind with the cells mRNA and teaches it to make a protein that identifies the protein in the spike Covid-19 virus.  The traditional vaccines use the existing mRNA to do the same thing.   

We don't know the long term effects of Covid-19.  We know what life was like before Covid.  We know that there hasn't been long term effects from vaccines, except to get rid of a disease.   

 

Everybody has a somewhat different immune system.  Some people have a robust response to a vaccine (or a disease), some have an overreaction, a cytokine storm, and other's just don't get much of an immune response at all.  

 

There's nothing wrong with being skeptical.  There's nothing wrong with questioning, but the answers are the answers.  

[cdemundo]

10 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Read my post again maybe. I've been jabbed with every possible juice for last 20 yrs to keep my job. Those include small pox and anthrax to be able to work in Middle East. I'll take the covid experimental juice to make travel easier. Just because the FDA gives approval doesn't mean squat about long term side effects which aren't known yet.

 Long term effects are possible but unlikely.

 The current vaccines have similar ingredients to the vaccines of the past.

Past vaccine side effects have been apparent in 4 to 6 weeks.

 

As to mRNA vaccines both the mRNA (disintegrates in days) and the spike proteins (proteins in the body break down in 2 to 3 weeks) so they cannot cause long term side effects.

 

People often bring up drugs that have had long term side effects.

The drugs that have had long term side effects have been drugs taken daily or more frequently and for a long period of time.

So those drugs were in the body in substantial concentrations constantly for a long period of time.

The vaccines are one or two (or possibly three) doses several weeks apart.

They are in the body briefly for short intervals.

Even flat out poisons require a sufficient dose to do their damage.

 

You might say, "Even still.." but why in this case?

This kind of info would reassure people about the risks in most cases.

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

7 minutes ago, Credo said:

I don't know what you expect, but I know we aren't here to be 'original' or to give responses to meet your idea of what is good.   This thread is about people who will or won't take the vaccine and why.  

We have a reasonably good idea of the long term effects of vaccines in general.  There are very long-term studies on the traditional vaccines.  The only difference is this one substitutes some part of the Covid-19 virus in the adjunct.  Other than the occasional anaphylactic reaction by people new to vaccination, the information and data is there.   

For the mRNA vaccine, the technology has been around, and used, since the mid-1990s.   No mass produced vaccines were made from mRNA until Covid-19,  but the technology has been tested and shown to be safe.   mRNA vaccines have had previous trials for everything from influenza and Zika to HIV.  

So, we have a very good idea that all the technical information for vaccines is there.  The only difference is what viral fragment is attached to it.  For the mRNA there is none, but a messenger RNA stand that enters the cells, bind with the cells mRNA and teaches to make a protein that identifies the protein in the spike Covid-19 virus.  The traditional vaccines use the existing mRNA to do the same thing.   

We don't know the long term effects of Covid-19.  We know what life was like before Covid.  We know that there hasn't been long term effects from vaccines, except to get rid of a disease.   

 

Everybody has a somewhat different immune system.  Some people have a robust response to a vaccine (or a disease), some have an overreaction, a cytokine storm, and other's just done get much of an immune response at all.   

 

There's nothing wrong with being skeptical.  There's nothing wrong with questioning, but the answers are the answers.   

 

 

 

 

This vaccine doesn't get rid of any disease. Here in Thailand getting the vaccine is more than walking into a CVS so I'm late getting mine. It doesn't mean I'm happy about it. I spent 24 yrs of the Gov telling me what I had to have injected if I wanted to keep a job. I object to the labels and name calling because we question taking a vaccine which doesn't have a long track record. 

 

If the vaccine works then why are vaccinated people worried, oh wait it doesn't really stop Covid does it. People who are fat and have other medical issues should take it. If you're young and inshape and don't want the vaccine then that should be a personal choice. If the government can tell what to inject in out bodies, what's next?

 

 

[Credo]

16 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

This vaccine doesn't get rid of any disease. Here in Thailand getting the vaccine is more than walking into a CVS so I'm late getting mine. It doesn't mean I'm happy about it. I spent 24 yrs of the Gov telling me what I had to have injected if I wanted to keep a job. I object to the labels and name calling because we question taking a vaccine which doesn't have a long track record. 

 

If the vaccine works then why are vaccinated people worried, oh wait it doesn't really stop Covid does it. People who are fat and have other medical issues should take it. If you're young and inshape and don't want the vaccine then that should be a personal choice. If the government can tell what to inject in out bodies, what's next?

 

It should be a personal choice, but it isn't because it's a public health issue.   When there is a risk of giving a disease to others, then your choices get limited.  Just like Tuberculosis, you don't get to walk around and give it to others.   

It is the price we pay to live in large groups.   If people don't want to work, don't want to eat out or go shopping and live an austere isolated hermit type life, then perhaps they can avoid the vaccine.  Otherwise, we are a risk to one another.  

 

[cdemundo]

3 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Additionally, it is not true that 49% effectiveness means that 51% of vaccinated people were symptomatic.

It means that vaccinated people had 51% reduction of risk versus unvaccinated.

 

"Vaccine effectiveness is the percent reduction in the frequency of illness among vaccinated people compared to people not vaccinated."

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectivenessqa.htm

 

Efficacy Effectiveness are apparently confusing as lots of people misinterpret them.

Docs and the media could do a better job of explaining.

But a little thinking might lead a person to question is there any group where 50% of the group gets infected?

I need to correct my own post here, "Vaccine effectiveness is the percent reduction in the frequency of illness among vaccinated people compared to people not vaccinated."

So 49% effectiveness means that vaccinated people had 49% reduction of risk versus unvaccinated.

So risk is cut approximately in half with this level of effectiveness.

 

[chessman]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

If the vaccine works then why are vaccinated people worried, oh wait it doesn't really stop Covid does it. People who are fat and have other medical issues should take it. If you're young and inshape and don't want the vaccine then that should be a personal choice. If the government can tell what to inject in out bodies, what's next?

Would you also argue that seatbelts shouldn’t be mandatory because they don’t completely stop serious injury and death during car crashes and it should be a ‘personal choice’?
 

if governments can tell us how to behave in our own cars, what’s next?

[EVENKEEL]

37 minutes ago, chessman said:

Would you also argue that seatbelts shouldn’t be mandatory because they don’t completely stop serious injury and death during car crashes and it should be a ‘personal choice’?
 

if governments can tell us how to behave in our own cars, what’s next?

Seat belts aren't injected into our bodies. Seat belts are a personal choice. There's a consequence for not wearing but it is still a choice we have.

[chessman]

10 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Seat belts are a personal choice

A strange statement. Not according to the law of most countries.

[Tony125]

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

This vaccine doesn't get rid of any disease. Here in Thailand getting the vaccine is more than walking into a CVS so I'm late getting mine. It doesn't mean I'm happy about it. I spent 24 yrs of the Gov telling me what I had to have injected if I wanted to keep a job. I object to the labels and name calling because we question taking a vaccine which doesn't have a long track record. 

 

If the vaccine works then why are vaccinated people worried, oh wait it doesn't really stop Covid does it. People who are fat and have other medical issues should take it. If you're young and inshape and don't want the vaccine then that should be a personal choice. If the government can tell what to inject in out bodies, what's next?

 

 

There are plenty of reports showing youger people with no underlying issues getting and dying from the Delta variant. Well known US radio/tv hosts who said for healthy people  the vax wasn't necessary. Maybe for the first cases of Covid but the Delta variant is another story. Few young people got Covid  or sufered badly from getting it untill now, the Delta variant infecting many more young and with serious effects.   The Pfizer vaccine is not expiramental so stop refering to it as such. Fully FDA approved for adults and going for full FDA approval for children 5--and up next month.

What you seem to not understand is that while the vaccine may not totally keep you from getting infected it disrupts the virus ability to mutate and grow in the body so the affects  of becoming infected are minamlised . In a person who is not vaccinated the Covid virus can grow/mutate into a variant that may be more deadly, more easily spread and resistant to present vaccines thats why they want everyone to get shot to finnish off the virus or disable it's ability to mutate in unvaccinated persons.

https://hub.jhu.edu/2021/07/19/andrew-pekosz-delta-variants/