Thinking of buying some land, please check my thinking :)

[JayBird]

(I understand as a foreigner it is difficult to own land, so this is going under my GF's name.  I'm not worried, and plan to do the usufruct & 30-year lease).

 

I'm planning to purchase a bit of land.  I've confirmed the chanote has the red garuda on it, and I believe it is type 4.  This should mean that it would be a full chanote and fully owned (as opposed to only 'permission' to own the land).  It's about 10 RAI, north of Hua Hin.

 

My main questions are:

1) Is there a way to know if the land is good for *building* on.  I do not know much about laying a foundation and building a house, but is there something I should be worried about here?  (Too soft, so will be difficult or expensive to build a house.  Too hard, so can't build a foundation.  Etc?)  Something I can check while looking at the land to know: Oh, run away not possible.  (Other than, it's flooded :P )

 

2) Water:  The land is supposed to have city water provided, but I would not mind my own well.  Is there some way to check if this is feasible whilst I'm looking at the land?

 

3) Are there some sort of records/surveys/etc. that are kept somewhere that give a report on the land? (flood zone, prone to fire, soil type, etc.?)

 

4) Electricity: It's supposed to have electricity either at the property line or within 100-200m of it.  I suspect brining full electrical power to the homestead is not that difficult or expensive?

 

5) Restrictions: Could there be some restrictions on use that I should check: Can only build certain styles of houses, not allowed for full time occupancy, something weird?

 

6) I don't know what I don't know: Is there something I should be check while I'm looking at it?

 

Thank you all!
 

 

 

 

 

[johng]

13 minutes ago, JayBird said:

I'm not worried, and plan to do the usufruct & 30-year lease

There have been reports on her that certain land offices refuse to issue usufructs  to foreigners  so  please check carefully at your land office before buying.

[jvs]

Yes good advice about checking about the usefruct,for the rest,there must be other houses around?

You(your girlfriend)should talk to some locals and find out about all of your issues.

Imo it should not be so difficult and you worry too much.

[spidermike007]

I would think a good foreign real estate lawyer, might be worth the cost. Alot of variables. He might be able to answer alot of these questions, and many more you have not thought of. Most of my friends who invest here, prefer to use a foreigner for advice. It tends to be more expensive, but it is worth it.

 

And if we are talking about Chanote land, within 10km of HH, it has to be a sizable sum you are looking to invest. I believe in land. Of all the assets to own in Thailand, it might be the smartest move, in the long run, as long as you are well protected. 

[Old Croc]

If you want to buy land in the ladies name it is fully possible to secure it legally with an usufruct, lease or similar. 

These are generally issued for your lifetime, or 30 years, which for most of us old codgers is the same thing. The courts will usually support a legally registered contract, but if things with the lady turn bad be aware it's not beyond the realms of possibility that you could end up helping to enrich the soil in a back paddock.

Sounds like you will have water and electricity available, a well or bore can be sunk for a reasonable price and in most cases will provide a good flow, Bushfires are relatively rare in jungle vegetation in the tropics, but smoke from burn offs can be hazardous.

You will have to check the soil when inspecting. Take someone who knows.

[patekatek]

I hired a driller from Hua Hin to drill a well for our place up in Kaeng Krachan.  He put in a 125 meter deep well and with the pump the price was close to 160,000 baht.  However, this was 10 years ago.  Best decision I made because the water, although hard, tastes great and it's never gone dry.  Even with running the pump for 24 hours at a time to fill a pond.  Here is his email address and phone.  His name is Akarapat.  Nice guy and speaks good english.

[email protected] : +66 86 335 335 3  I hope he's still in business.

 

If you do decide to purchase the land and build a house with several air conditioners, clothes dryer, water heaters, etc. you might want to consider paying for 3 phase power.  We paid close to 500,000 baht to bring in 3 phase to our land.  This included several power poles and of course the wires, transformers, etc.

[sanuk711]

8 hours ago, JayBird said:

1/ Is there a way to know if the land is good for *building* on. 

2/ Water:  The land is supposed to have city water provided,

1/ Was it rice land before JayBirb ?.. because it may require filling which can be quite expensive.

2/ Water is so cheap in Thailand-- I have never seen the sense in drilling if it cost what has been quoted---

3/ No

4/ Running Electricity lines can be expensive--how far from the nearest Neighbor are you?--which is usually how you calculate it.

5/ Restrictions-no that would be unusual to have any  Restrictions on the type on residence you build.

6/ Difficult to answer --what age are you?-- if this is a long term plan  (more then 5-10 years) then thats difficult to say if your relationship (if your living apart ) would make it a good investment.

 

anyway--good luck.

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by sanuk711

[JayBird]

Hello all, and thank you for the feedback.

 

To summarize a bit of the input so far:

 

1) No, it's not rice land.  It may have been used for normal 'farming' at some point.  I suppose that means it's perfectly fine to build a house on?

 

2) There are no neighbours that one can see.  Maybe a good 5+ minute drive to the nearest.  So not sure asking them would be meaningful, as the terrain will be different.

 

3) Sounds like electricity could be an issue.  How can I tell what kind of electricity I have nearby and if I need to upgrade it? (Is there something written on the pole?)

 

4) I'm planning to get a lawyer to handle the usufruct & lease, should not have an issues.

 

 

[KKr]

10 hours ago, JayBird said:

Hello all, and thank you for the feedback.

 

To summarize a bit of the input so far:

 

1) No, it's not rice land.  It may have been used for normal 'farming' at some point.  I suppose that means it's perfectly fine to build a house on?

 

2) There are no neighbours that one can see.  Maybe a good 5+ minute drive to the nearest.  So not sure asking them would be meaningful, as the terrain will be different.

 

3) Sounds like electricity could be an issue.  How can I tell what kind of electricity I have nearby and if I need to upgrade it? (Is there something written on the pole?)

 

4) I'm planning to get a lawyer to handle the usufruct & lease, should not have an issues.

 

 

you should read up on superficies and usufruct, or talk to a knowledgeable lawyer.

in the case of empty land, superficies is what I prefer.

 

who will sign for building permit, i.e. become de-facto owner of the house?

 

as for construction possibilities, probably talking to a local architect can be helpful. (FYI, and in my humble opinion, for building a house, the ground cannot be firm enough)

 

then, make sure you have access to the land, meaning the land is bordering on a public road, I have seen proposals where a strip of other people’s land prevents such access.

 

who owns bordering land, and what do they intend to do there ? (chicken farm ? apartment blocks? garbage disposal facilities? factory?)

Check whether there are plans for new overhead high voltage cables.

 

who is selling the land, and why ?

are you sure living so far from other people is a good idea for you?

 

how long is the drive to the nearest emergency room ?

 

Will this be a sellable investment cum asset, or an illiquid burden?

Talk to an English speaking, foreign, real estate agent to assess resale feasibility, and go see some alternatives that might be more liquid in case of need.

 

real-estate is only good investment if it has re-sale value, otherwise suggest not to buy it.

 

wish you good luck, and, above all, wisdom

Edited August 13, 2021 by KKr

[KKr]

20 hours ago, JayBird said:

as opposed to only 'permission' to own the land

nitpicking here, but it were a

“permission to USE the land”

 

[bwanajohn]

Find a  sympathetic lawyer with good English skills and lots of experience with foreigners buying land.

 

 

[CharlieH]

My advice, do alot more reading and talking, you appear to be way out of your depth here.

Take off those "I have a dream" spectacles and focus on the realities, act in haste repent at leisure. BE CAREFUL.

[StevieAus]

21 hours ago, johng said:

There have been reports on her that certain land offices refuse to issue usufructs  to foreigners  so  please check carefully at your land office before buying.

They might try to refuse, several years ago a land office in the Chiang Mai area tried to pull the same stunt with my wife and I.

When our lawyer appeared, explained the law to them,together with the consequences they would face, they did a very quick backflip.

[XJPSX]

All things aside I suggest to speak to locals and if flooding has been apparent build up. 
Be careful with the soil used for foundations and ensure it is not too Sandy. I lived in several (expensive) estates in BKK where the new houses have all started to crack as the Sandy foundations started to erode. It was a disaster and the main reason everyone was selling their houses after 5 years.

I have built on Farmland and per 1 rai @ 1m high of good solid fill runs between  150 - 200k thb per Rai. 

[rwill]

you can have pylons driven into the ground for the foundation too, if needed.

[wwest5829]

13 hours ago, JayBird said:

Hello all, and thank you for the feedback.

 

To summarize a bit of the input so far:

 

1) No, it's not rice land.  It may have been used for normal 'farming' at some point.  I suppose that means it's perfectly fine to build a house on?

 

2) There are no neighbours that one can see.  Maybe a good 5+ minute drive to the nearest.  So not sure asking them would be meaningful, as the terrain will be different.

 

3) Sounds like electricity could be an issue.  How can I tell what kind of electricity I have nearby and if I need to upgrade it? (Is there something written on the pole?)

 

4) I'm planning to get a lawyer to handle the usufruct & lease, should not have an issues.

 

 

Might suggest that you have a clear access to the nearest public roadway (no need to cross someone else's property)?

[Tropposurfer]

20 hours ago, patekatek said:

I hired a driller from Hua Hin to drill a well for our place up in Kaeng Krachan.  He put in a 125 meter deep well and with the pump the price was close to 160,000 baht.  However, this was 10 years ago.  Best decision I made because the water, although hard, tastes great and it's never gone dry.  Even with running the pump for 24 hours at a time to fill a pond.  Here is his email address and phone.  His name is Akarapat.  Nice guy and speaks good english.

[email protected] : +66 86 335 335 3  I hope he's still in business.

 

If you do decide to purchase the land and build a house with several air conditioners, clothes dryer, water heaters, etc. you might want to consider paying for 3 phase power.  We paid close to 500,000 baht to bring in 3 phase to our land.  This included several power poles and of course the wires, transformers, etc.

Right on patek. Great advice.

Imperative to have full 3 phase power to the home. I'd advise solar and good batteries install too - If you got enough doe then get some of the small home wind turbines, these will power the water pumps and any irrigation systems. 

I installed solar and will recoup my investment in about 5 years. We pay zero, zero for power even with air-con on a lot in the dry and worst of the wet season (closets are always air-conned to stop the clothes n shoes rotting). I actually feed power back into the grid.

I'd advise the well option to a great investment. I have 2 very big underground tanks to store the rainwater off the house.

As far as acidity or alkalinity, you could install a reverse osmosis filter system (I had this built into the home) and make the water truly delicious and safe to drink from the tap (heavy mineral e.g iron, calcium content well water can cause problems such as kidney stones and other health problems).

Some well water will be quite neutral and not mineral heavy, you have to consider other stuff like e-coli in the groundwater which even if not drunk is very dangerous to have around. A water test will conform the exact composition of any water you draw if and when you drill a bore. A good well is always another great selling point for future buyers way down the track too. 

If you want to be really sure of the soil-substrates get a civil engineer to arrange a core drill test on a few sites around the property. Well worth it if you plan to build and develop.

Take into account water courses and flood plain areas when building as XJ said.

XJ's got some food advise on the sandy soils or wash-away of the land contours - if you do build on sand then you have to make sure there is no opportunity for undercutting of the slab/foundations by rain or run-off water. Building on sand is no problem if you follow some simple structural principles. For any substrate built on anything that has been newly imported to a site, then this 'fill' must always be thoroughly, heavy machinery compacted.

Thai builders often raise the baseline URL of a block to mitigate heavy monsoon seasonal weather then leave the sides of this raised area unretained and or poorly drainage-stabilised then drop a 40-60 tonne house on it with not enough attention to retainment of the mound on which it sits as well as the engineering of the piers/footings and the slab attached to them.

Find a Euro civil engineer or surveyor to advise on the site and the entire build before breaking ground is my advice.

I don't give a fig about the reputation of any building company whether Thai or falang, make sure you have licensed, independent of the builder, 'good reputation' specialists inspect and sign off on every part of the plans, project schedule and build e.g. civil engineer or surveyor, an electrical engineer.

Why do I say this? Because I have time and time and again I've seen work done that would never pass muster in my country.  And no the notion or reasoning or excuse; 'the Thai way is how it is' is BS. Building soundly is the same no matter where you go.

One example is Thai builders seem to have a huge problem with being able to plan the projection a level and then make a level change without screwing this up e.g. resulting in rapid URL transitions at driveway and roadway junction, steps being death traps, half-steps (also very dangerous things). drainpipes added above-ground because things were not thought through and planned out.

Pouring sections of add-on slabs without connecting the old with the new, leaving out reo-mesh n reo-bar altogether for smaller areas cause somehow they thought it wasn't necessary for a return area around a corner, or a shed or storeroom floor. Not using proper reo-chair's but rock as chairs which invites a pore-space in the concrete - a weakness, and for water to contact the reinforcing steel over time. Not using proper high tensile steel reo-cages in beam, pier, or post work. 

I'm lucky as I used to be a carpenter/builder many years ago so I understood and could draw-up, stipulate, look for, and pre-empt issues alongside my surveyor/engineer. I was lucky as I built my new home through an extremely western design architect and developer (Khun At at Botanic - Phuket) alongside me who both understood, and designed by western building standards and made sure they were done.

While it cost me 250,000 for the surveyor engineer, and another few hundred for electrical engineer, and interior designer advice it was a drop in the bucket of the entire build cost.

Good luck, and I hope you enjoy the challenges of developing and building on your own piece of Hua Hin!

[inThailand]

Due deligience is critical. This includes who owns the land now. Ie, Are you buying from your gf's family, etc, etc. 

 

One way to buy the land is get a mortgage in your gfs name. You make the monthly mortgage payments. If she f.. s you off, your only in for the down payment and monthly payments during your time together. She now has to make the rest of the monthly payments. You can still get a lease but it will be second to the bank. Good Luck! 

[AlQaholic]

For the Usufruct, it is basically up to each land office to grant. The problem I think for the land office is the "fruct" part of it, meaning a grey zone where the foreigner is allowed to profit from the land, which is a paragraph 22 issue for the land office, since foreigners are not allowed to engage in activities/work of such type, they can't even get a work permit.

Edited August 13, 2021 by AlQaholic

[Robin]

Worth considering an exit strategy;  if the worst happens, could you sell and recoup your investment?

My experience of rural land is that it is not a liquid asset.   You might have to find a buyer yourself and them wait while he finds the money to pay for it.

 

[SomchaiCNX]

44 minutes ago, Robin said:

Worth considering an exit strategy;  if the worst happens, could you sell and recoup your investment?

My experience of rural land is that it is not a liquid asset.   You might have to find a buyer yourself and them wait while he finds the money to pay for it.

 

We bought paddy fields 150 K with chanote (from family), sold 450 K 24 years later bought 200 Talang Wa without paper for 30K  sold for 150 K, still without paper. So it depends where it is (near the village) and if the people know you. We got many requests to buy but not enough money. Anty of the wife bought a couple rai when the BP was high (lives in Manchester) and sold it with profit when the pound was not even 40. THink she made more on the exchange rate. Yet again in her village and sold to a friend.  

[SomchaiCNX]

04. Electricity can be expensive. Know an NGO who paid 480 K 20+ years ago for a couple hundred meter. It was about 80K for each next pillar.  Once it was installed many started to build in the same area and hooked up for the regular fee. You may pay for it but you don't own it.

[brianthainess]

 

On 8/12/2021 at 10:46 AM, JayBird said:

My main questions are:

1) Is there a way to know if the land is good for *building* on.  I do not know much about laying a foundation and building a house, but is there something I should be worried about here?  (Too soft, so will be difficult or expensive to build a house.  Too hard, so can't build a foundation.  Etc?)  Something I can check while looking at the land to know: Oh, run away not possible.  (Other than, it's flooded ???? )

The local Amphur in my experience will be the ones deciding on the plans of the house, and will include the specific depth of the foundations. this was built on sandy clay type land to their specs. The first sow going up ceremony offering, not the builders lunch LOL.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by brianthainess
add photos

[JayBird]

6 hours ago, brianthainess said:

 

The local Amphur in my experience will be the ones deciding on the plans of the house, and will include the specific depth of the foundations. this was built on sandy clay type land to their specs. The first sow going up ceremony offering, not the builders lunch LOL.

 

 

Are you saying that the Amphur will decide what kind of house I can have? The design, style, etc?

 

 

[JayBird]

7 hours ago, inThailand said:

Due deligience is critical. This includes who owns the land now. Ie, Are you buying from your gf's family, etc, etc. 

 

One way to buy the land is get a mortgage in your gfs name. You make the monthly mortgage payments. If she f.. s you off, your only in for the down payment and monthly payments during your time together. She now has to make the rest of the monthly payments. You can still get a lease but it will be second to the bank. Good Luck! 

I'm not worried about her taking the land.  She owns so much property she can't keep track of it, and this would not even be a blip on her radar.

 

I'm mainly interested in the Lease/etc. to avoid anything if she dies..

[chrisandsu]

On 8/12/2021 at 6:15 AM, JayBird said:

Hello all, and thank you for the feedback.

 

To summarize a bit of the input so far:

 

1) No, it's not rice land.  It may have been used for normal 'farming' at some point.  I suppose that means it's perfectly fine to build a house on?

 

2) There are no neighbours that one can see.  Maybe a good 5+ minute drive to the nearest.  So not sure asking them would be meaningful, as the terrain will be different.

 

3) Sounds like electricity could be an issue.  How can I tell what kind of electricity I have nearby and if I need to upgrade it? (Is there something written on the pole?)

 

4) I'm planning to get a lawyer to handle the usufruct & lease, should not have an issues.

 

 

1- the reason the OP asked if it was a rice paddy is because they are normally lower then the road side which will mean you will have to build it up to stop it from flooding . 
2. take a Thai you trust who’s local to the area to ask about the history of the area - no offense but if your missis is an uneducated farm girl she won’t be much use . 
3. it’s quite a sandy terrain around that area flooding does happen and quite severe . 
4. don’t ever marry your gf as then the userfuct means nothing as there is no legal contracts between man and wife . And remember if you finish you can’t sell without her permission . If it’s your money get it in a business name if it’s shared money by all means put it in hers . 
5. I have found and is often the case Thais tend to get rid of land when it’s not very productive for farming anymore bargain hard and don’t pay what they are asking as it’s often overpriced . 

[bojo]

If you believe your land needs to be filled/raised to build on; I would advise doing so as soon as you buy the land giving it as much time as possible to settle properly. The longer the better.......................

[inThailand]

3 hours ago, bojo said:

If you believe your land needs to be filled/raised to build on; I would advise doing so as soon as you buy the land giving it as much time as possible to settle properly. The longer the better.......................

Yup. Two rainy seasons is the norm to allow the fill to settle, if your building on a slab. 

[JayBird]

14 hours ago, bojo said:

If you believe your land needs to be filled/raised to build on; I would advise doing so as soon as you buy the land giving it as much time as possible to settle properly. The longer the better.......................

Yes, thank you!  She mentioned something about raising it if I want.  She said some people even raise it 2-3 meters so it looks nice.  Not sure how realistic that is.  Would be like having a hill-mounted castle overlooking the lands ????  But could be a fun thing to do if not overly expensive.

 

And yes, good idea on letting it settle for a while.  Need to remember that in case whoever we hire wants to move onto the next phase quickly.

[lopburi3]

On 8/13/2021 at 8:25 AM, XJPSX said:

I lived in several (expensive) estates in BKK where the new houses have all started to crack as the Sandy foundations

I have never heard of anyone building in Bangkok on a floating foundation (if that is what you are saying) - Bangkok is about 40 feet deep mud and can not support anything - all homes use piles driven into the earth to support foundations.  Walls are not supporting so cracks are not normally a serious issue.   

 

Most of Thailand does flood so having as high as possible is normally a good thing (unless you want to go Thai style and build at second story level with open space below - not the best in old age or for vehicles).