The sharks are getting hungry

[soi3eddie]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:42 AM, smutcakes said:

What the hell are the banks, loan sharks going to do with 100's of land parcels scattered around rural villages around the country.... you can barely give that <deleted> away never mind sell it.

Agreed. And anyway, how would life be living on re-possesed land/property bought by a Thai/Farang couple in the face of villagers and previous landowners? No thanks!

 

[Yellowtail]

16 minutes ago, Airalee said:

That’s certainly a major part of it.  Just like with educational loans.  I just didn’t feel like writing a thesis.

I understand that, but blaming the banks without pointing out that the primary culprit and continues to be the federal government just feeds the problem. 

 

People blame the banks, want the government to do something and the government just exasperates the problem. 

 

 

 

[Airalee]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

I understand that, but blaming the banks without pointing out that the primary culprit and continues to be the federal government just feeds the problem. 

 

People blame the banks, want the government to do something and the government just exasperates the problem. 

 

 

 

I believe we are on the same page actually.  OK to pm you with my thoughts?

[Yellowtail]

30 minutes ago, Airalee said:

I believe we are on the same page actually.  OK to pm you with my thoughts?

Sure, why wouldn't it be? 

 

[Nojohndoe]

The situation opens a very big back door for Corporate acquisition and large scale farming.

What may seem big money per each small plot to destitute farmers is cheap on the grand scale.

There are still many aged farmers who have taken on debt on behalf of wanna be hi so younger generations who desired a shiny new 4x4 pickup to park in Bangkok and when unable to pay the credit convince the parent's to hock the family land chanote to the Bank to save family face.  Then let poor old Dad try impossibly to pay the Bank. Have seen and heard of it over and over here in Isaan .

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Nojohndoe said:

The situation opens a very big back door for Corporate acquisition and large scale farming.

What may seem big money per each small plot to destitute farmers is cheap on the grand scale.

There are still many aged farmers who have taken on debt on behalf of wanna be hi so younger generations who desired a shiny new 4x4 pickup to park in Bangkok and when unable to pay the credit convince the parent's to hock the family land chanote to the Bank to save family face.  Then let poor old Dad try impossibly to pay the Bank. Have seen and heard of it over and over here in Isaan .

Not sure what "face" has to do with it, but while I have no idea what percentage of old farmers are fool enough to put up the family farm to guarantee a loan for a foolish child, I doubt it is significant. In any event, it is their property and they should be able to do with it as they see fit. As an old man, nothing in my life gives me more pleasure than my son, so while I would not hock the "family farm" to buy him a pick-up, I would happily do what I could to help him do whatever he wanted, assuming it were legal and not too <deleted> bone-headed. 

 

If one group was/is positioned to suffer less than any other during the covid debacle it was/is the farmers. There are no fewer people eating now than were eating before it all started, while the number of unemployed people has skyrocketed,  so if they are in over their head it is likely their own doing. 

 

Like it or not, large-scale farming is the way of the future. Around the globe food is generally cheaper and more plentiful than ever before, and as a percentage of the population there are fewer people hungry today than in the history of the world. 

 

 

[Nojohndoe]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Not sure what "face" has to do with it, but while I have no idea what percentage of old farmers are fool enough to put up the family farm to guarantee a loan for a foolish child, I doubt it is significant. In any event, it is their property and they should be able to do with it as they see fit. As an old man, nothing in my life gives me more pleasure than my son, so while I would not hock the "family farm" to buy him a pick-up, I would happily do what I could to help him do whatever he wanted, assuming it were legal and not too <deleted> bone-headed. 

 

If one group was/is positioned to suffer less than any other during the covid debacle it was/is the farmers. There are no fewer people eating now than were eating before it all started, while the number of unemployed people has skyrocketed,  so if they are in over their head it is likely their own doing. 

 

Like it or not, large-scale farming is the way of the future. Around the globe food is generally cheaper and more plentiful than ever before, and as a percentage of the population there are fewer people hungry today than in the history of the world. 

 

 

I am sure you have little or no experience of the family dynamics of rural Isaan.

The farmers are often said to be land rich, money poor and many are. However they too, happily or willingly maybe or not, strive to save face in bailing out the unnecessary debts of their children rather than explain the absence due to repossession of the shiny new car that was such a wonderful symbol of urban living success on last visitation on a holiday weekend .

In recent times that has increased been due to unemployment which is far from their own doing.

As for fewer people going hungry I am not so sure unless perhaps in the developed world.

I agree that large scale farming is more efficient in terms of output due to mechanization which also increases rural unemployment and creates more urban drift. Cheaper or not must be paid for.

The credit trap so readily and optimistically accepted by many vulnerable people is becoming a credit squeeze that will become taken advantage of.

I could adopt a bloody minded opinion and say it serves them right but I prefer to have some empathy for the people I live near.

 

 

[elgenon]

On 9/4/2021 at 6:30 PM, dinga said:

To be clear, in addition to Customs Duties and VAT, imported goods are also subject to the same excise taxes that apply to similar, locally manufactured goods

Thanks for taking the time to be clear.

[Yellowtail]

19 hours ago, Nojohndoe said:

I am sure you have little or no experience of the family dynamics of rural Isaan.

The farmers are often said to be land rich, money poor and many are. However they too, happily or willingly maybe or not, strive to save face in bailing out the unnecessary debts of their children rather than explain the absence due to repossession of the shiny new car that was such a wonderful symbol of urban living success on last visitation on a holiday weekend .

In recent times that has increased been due to unemployment which is far from their own doing.

As for fewer people going hungry I am not so sure unless perhaps in the developed world.

I agree that large scale farming is more efficient in terms of output due to mechanization which also increases rural unemployment and creates more urban drift. Cheaper or not must be paid for.

The credit trap so readily and optimistically accepted by many vulnerable people is becoming a credit squeeze that will become taken advantage of.

I could adopt a bloody minded opinion and say it serves them right but I prefer to have some empathy for the people I live near.

 

 

I am sure you have little or no experience of the family dynamics of rural Isaan.

 

While the people you come in contact with may be, rural Thai families are not generally not stupid, backward people.

 

It is amusing that you claim to have empathy for people you apparently look down down your nose at.

[Nojohndoe]

50 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I am sure you have little or no experience of the family dynamics of rural Isaan.

 

While the people you come in contact with may be, rural Thai families are not generally not stupid, backward people.

 

It is amusing that you claim to have empathy for people you apparently look down down your nose at.

As a person married and living with my Thai wife for 20 years in Isaan, with children and grandchild I believe I have gained a degree of insight as to the way of things and the short comings of them in specific instances.

 

[Yellowtail]

51 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

As a person married and living with my Thai wife for 20 years in Isaan, with children and grandchild I believe I have gained a degree of insight as to the way of things and the short comings of them in specific instances.

 

Is this where I'm suppose to go on about the hundreds of Thai I have employed in the years I worked here or my son that's studying at Mahidiol?

 

I don't doubt for a moment you think yourself insightful, you already claimed to be empathetic. 

 

How many farmers outside your family do you break bread with in a week?

[Nojohndoe]

50 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Is this where I'm suppose to go on about the hundreds of Thai I have employed in the years I worked here or my son that's studying at Mahidiol?

 

I don't doubt for a moment you think yourself insightful, you already claimed to be empathetic. 

 

How many farmers outside your family do you break bread with in a week?

So a big city urbanite?

I daily interact with many different members of the community some of them farmers, some of them teachers, local government, provincial government, medical, police, army,traders, travelers and loan sharks.

In explanation of that my wife operates a rural restaurant of some trusted  renown.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

 

21 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

So a big city urbanite?

Did you use the "insight" you were bragging about to come up with that?

 

You assume that because my boy goes to university in Bangkok that he grew up there? I think it a good bet all the things you think you know are as silly.

 

21 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

I daily interact with many different members of the community some of them farmers, some of them teachers, local government, provincial government, medical, police, army,traders, travelers and loan sharks.

In explanation of that my wife operates a rural restaurant of some trusted  renown.

I didn't ask how many different members of the community you interact with, I asked how many farmers you broke-bread with in a week. 

 

But I'll take that as a zero. 

 

Meanwhile, maybe I'll got to the local mini-mart and "interact" with the locals. No doubt I can gain a lot of great insight from them....

[LongTimeLurker]

On 9/3/2021 at 10:36 AM, Boarn said:

Secondly give ALL land proper papers, full chanote. No more nonsense, Sor Por Kor, Sor Tor Gor, Sor Kung Nung, Nor Sor 3 etc. If all land had full papers this would also reduce the price of proper papered land.

Surely those non-chanote ownerships are cheaper than Chanote paper? And therefore if they were full Chanote their value would rise?

[Nojohndoe]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Surely those non-chanote ownerships are cheaper than Chanote paper? And therefore if they were full Chanote their value would rise?

It would also mean that those lands would be legitimately saleable. Whether or not it has been a deliberate hindrance  to prohibit non chanote land from being sold or gifted to other than immediate family  members the fractional familial share of such land has now made it increasingly redundant in terms of individual practical value while desire to acquire by any means has increased the degree rather than the volume of corruption in the government department accorded a higher level than any other.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

On 9/3/2021 at 11:52 AM, Ralf001 said:

Got a link to that Government promotion?.

 

Or are you thinking of the  first time car buyer scheme that provided tax rebates to those buyers who qualified.

I'd say that's what he meant. It was for first time buyers and there were a lot of people who bought cars and then could't keep up the payments and so lost them

[Nojohndoe]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Did you use the "insight" you were bragging about to come up with that?

 

You assume that because my boy goes to university in Bangkok that he grew up there? I think it a good bet all the things you think you know are as silly.

 

I didn't ask how many different members of the community you interact with, I asked how many farmers you broke-bread with in a week. 

 

But I'll take that as a zero. 

 

Meanwhile, maybe I'll got to the local mini-mart and "interact" with the locals. No doubt I can gain a lot of great insight from them....

What bragging? On that point my  daughter has also attended University  although not as acclaimed.

It is also somewhat irrelevant that your boy did not originate in Bangkok unless you  consider his  singular related experience of life as a pure example of actual origins as verbatim.

No doubt  you are proud to have supported his opportunity regardless as well as having instilled a degree  of your personal expectations.

If by using the term "breaking bread" means social intimacy then yes it is  an almost  daily experience including sharing discussion  as well as with a meal. Pre covid there were  many other enjoyable occasions of impromptu communal gatherings that progressed well into a night.

The  nearest  mini mart or equivalent to my location is 20 kms and if I were to go to expect "interaction" I am sure it would be limited well short of significant "insight" other than witnessing the quite depressing addiction of people to "convenience" that has insidiously extended  to rural towns.

In conclusion I am not apologetic in saying that you possess limited validity in dismissing my opinion from a position of "zero" living experience.

 

 

 

[LongTimeLurker]

On 9/5/2021 at 8:58 AM, zzaa09 said:

Can't grow agricultural/horticultural things in a condo.

 

I've got a thriving CBD (???? ????) business going on my 20m2 condo balcony!

[chrisandsu]

23 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

What bragging? On that point my  daughter has also attended University  although not as acclaimed.

It is also somewhat irrelevant that your boy did not originate in Bangkok unless you  consider his  singular related experience of life as a pure example of actual origins as verbatim.

No doubt  you are proud to have supported his opportunity regardless as well as having instilled a degree  of your personal expectations.

If by using the term "breaking bread" means social intimacy then yes it is  an almost  daily experience including sharing discussion  as well as with a meal. Pre covid there were  many other enjoyable occasions of impromptu communal gatherings that progressed well into a night.

The  nearest  mini mart or equivalent to my location is 20 kms and if I were to go to expect "interaction" I am sure it would be limited well short of significant "insight" other than witnessing the quite depressing addiction of people to "convenience" that has insidiously extended  to rural towns.

In conclusion I am not apologetic in saying that you possess limited validity in dismissing my opinion from a position of "zero" living experience.

 

 

 

Don’t argue with him . Whatever you say he will pick a hole in it . Some people you are just better off not interacting with .

[Nojohndoe]

2 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

Don’t argue with him . Whatever you say he will pick a hole in it . Some people you are just better off not interacting with .

While I can agree there are times when arrogance of assumed superiority are worth challenging.

[chrisandsu]

30 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

While I can agree there are times when arrogance of assumed superiority are worth challenging.

I agree . 

[impulse]

On 9/1/2021 at 9:29 PM, spidermike007 said:

There is bound to be a major reckoning here. You cannot sabotage the economy, destroy tourism, put millions out of work, and not face consequences. It is likely to be far worse than 1997, and several economists have already stated this. It will take years to sort out. Condos are bound to drop significantly, possibly as much as 50% or more, except in the best buildings. Land? Anyone's guess. Likely less than condos, which were way overbuilt to begin with.

 

Build it and they will come. I do not think so. Sheer hubris. 

The issue is, of course, that the "consequences" will be more properties and businesses snapped up by the Elite at pennies on the dollar.

 

Rule #1...  The Elite never lose.

 

[Yellowtail]

10 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

I agree . 

Yes, I think we are all in agreement, thanks.

[Yellowtail]

11 hours ago, Nojohndoe said:

While I can agree there are times when arrogance of assumed superiority are worth challenging.

When I disagree with your "insight" that Thai famers (not the bank) are generally fools that care more about saving "face" than keeping the family farm you claim it's "arrogance of assumed superiority".  How funny is that? 

 

To be clear, I'm not dismissing your opinion, you are welcome to it, I'm dismissing opinions being stated as fact, or being used to discount the opinions of others. 

 

The hundreds of Thais  I have worked with have generally seemed to be more fiscally responsible than the people I have worked with in the United States. That is my opinion. 

[Boarn]

18 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Surely those non-chanote ownerships are cheaper than Chanote paper? And therefore if they were full Chanote their value would rise?

But there would be more land available which in my opinion would reduce the overall value of chanote land as there is a lot more of it, land becoming chanote land from a worse paper may increase in value but overall there should be a reduction. 

[Yellowtail]

33 minutes ago, Boarn said:

But there would be more land available which in my opinion would reduce the overall value of chanote land as there is a lot more of it, land becoming chanote land from a worse paper may increase in value but overall there should be a reduction. 

What benefit is there in reducing land value? 

[Boarn]

 

26 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What benefit is there in reducing land value? 

Could say what is the benefit of increasing land prices?

 

Increasing land prices makes people sit on land, making it harder for new entrants to the market, less opportunity for business, less opportunity to create jobs etc etc.

 

Talking in relation to our business, I despise rent in any way shape or form so we need to own the properties we do business from, we currently have 4 locations, 10 staff overall. I want to expand the business but land in the location we want to go next (bear in mind this is in the countryside, not talking about city property here) is more than absurdly priced, we need to be next to a road for obvious reasons and people are asking for 3 million a rai on average when 10% of this would be more reasonable. People sit on the land, it is underutilized, not being used for it's best reason, now in the same area there is a load of Sor Tor Gor land, just off the main road, I would say in fact 80% of the land in that area is Sor Tor Gor, people will sell, they are asking on average 400k a rai but you can't actually and legally buy and own the land especially in our company name.

 

So, the because of the above 2 or 3 people are not going to have a job, a local builders is not going to turnover a few million in construction fees and the economy will not grow, this is tiny I know but the way land works in Thailand is a detriment to the economy as a whole. If all land was chanote, people couldnt attempt such high prices if there was so much more available.

 

The only benefit for increasing land prices is to people who own land already.

 

The benefit for reducing land prices is abundant.

[Yellowtail]

48 minutes ago, Boarn said:

 

Could say what is the benefit of increasing land prices?

 

Increasing land prices makes people sit on land, making it harder for new entrants to the market, less opportunity for business, less opportunity to create jobs etc etc.

 

Talking in relation to our business, I despise rent in any way shape or form so we need to own the properties we do business from, we currently have 4 locations, 10 staff overall. I want to expand the business but land in the location we want to go next (bear in mind this is in the countryside, not talking about city property here) is more than absurdly priced, we need to be next to a road for obvious reasons and people are asking for 3 million a rai on average when 10% of this would be more reasonable. People sit on the land, it is underutilized, not being used for it's best reason, now in the same area there is a load of Sor Tor Gor land, just off the main road, I would say in fact 80% of the land in that area is Sor Tor Gor, people will sell, they are asking on average 400k a rai but you can't actually and legally buy and own the land especially in our company name.

 

So, the because of the above 2 or 3 people are not going to have a job, a local builders is not going to turnover a few million in construction fees and the economy will not grow, this is tiny I know but the way land works in Thailand is a detriment to the economy as a whole. If all land was chanote, people couldnt attempt such high prices if there was so much more available.

 

The only benefit for increasing land prices is to people who own land already.

 

The benefit for reducing land prices is abundant.

What business are you in?

 

In any event, it seems pretty selfish to me to want to drive property values down, which will cause great financial harm to a lot of people, just so that it is cheaper and easier for YOU to expand YOUR business and increase YOUR wealth. 

 

You look at a bunch of businessmen buying up property from local farmers as some kind of net benefit to the community, I don't. 

 

If your business is doing well, why not support the local communities by renting or leasing?  

[Boarn]

30 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What business are you in?

 

In any event, it seems pretty selfish to me to want to drive property values down, which will cause great financial harm to a lot of people, just so that it is cheaper and easier for YOU to expand YOUR business and increase YOUR wealth. 

 

You look at a bunch of businessmen buying up property from local farmers as some kind of net benefit to the community, I don't. 

 

If your business is doing well, why not support the local communities by renting or leasing?  

We have a few drink shops, nothing special but it does OK.

 

I am against under-utilized and over priced land, the community would benefit if more people could afford land, more people with productive land means more people with money to spend.

 

I am against rent, fitting out something we don't own in my opinion is throwing money away, I mentally can't add value to something the company doesn't own.

 

Anyway it's a moot point, the issue is land documentation at the end of the day, in some countryside areas such as where we are there simply is not enough proper papered land. 

 

Talking about causing financial hardship to farmers, around this area most farmland is Sor Tor Gor, farmers can't raise finance on the land or sell legally and numerous other things. If they were given proper documents this would help them out the most.

[Neeranam]

I've been following the market in Cha am, Petchburi, Hua Hin, Samui and haven't seen too many real bargains. There was one house that I missed, valued at 15 mill and sold for 8.9 mill. 

I'm holding off buying as long as I can, it sure is a buyers market. My house in Khon Kaen is going to be hard to sell, so will just keep it -  not for the house value to go up but for the land price, prices here in the city have risen about 10,000 % in the last 20 years !