Thailand's 'draconian' alcohol laws in the spotlight

[richard_smith237]

43 minutes ago, robblok said:

True Richard, its because of lazy enforcement. However in case of the kids not buying alcohol how would cops have to enforce it. The moment a cop steps into a shop sales are cancelled and nobody gets caught. Its not JUST about lazy police. Its really not practical at all. How do you see enforcement of this law. The moment a cop walks in he cant check if sales have been made and he cant catch them in the act as they can just hide it. Maybe standing outside of shops and searching kids who exit the shop. 

In that case, kids can buy alcohol before 2pm and after 5pm....   So, should the sale sales of alcohol be banned completely ??....  All that the 2-5 ban achieves is a virtuous half measure - its theatre, its ineffective it side steps the real issues.

 

Why are the alcohol licensing laws in the West considered effective where as the same laws in Thailand are not ? why the need for a blanket ban here ? Answer: Because people have no regard for the law or regulations.

Perhaps the moral compass is screwed up.

Question: Is there actually an issue with Kids buying booze in the first place ????  If so, how do the authorities know this ? then, if they know this surely they can find out where the kids purchased the booze and target that shop... kind of like ‘real police work’..... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, robblok said:

Laws can only be enforced with help of the public, if there is a large resentment against a law then too many will break it and it cant be policed. (resentment in this case is lost sales). In my country they just don't sell to minors as they know its not allowed even if the risk of getting caught is low. So they obey the law even though the checks are not that normal (and often done with cctv and till receipts afterwards ) While in Thailand no checks means not obeying. 

Moral and social responsibility - is it really that absent in Thailand?

It goes back to the question, how many kids really were buying alcohol for this 2-5 law being necessary ?

Or, as is quite common here, do we have one or two issues which drew attention then a knee-jerk blanket ban was made ?

We’ve seen the same thing with Big-Bikes, a couple of kids have an accident on a Big-Bike, then the government suggest licences for big-bikes. In this example, not a stupid law, but shows the ‘knee-jerk response’... when really, the parents who purchased a big-bike for their 18 year old are really at fault. 

 

 

43 minutes ago, robblok said:

Good solid laws need some way of ease of enforcement too.

Good solid laws need good solid enforcement - thats the way it works elsewhere, there is no reason that cannot work here IF the enforcement are pushed to enforce with consistency. 

 

43 minutes ago, robblok said:

I don't see how they can enforce the 11-14 law in a meaningful way. Unless you want a cop in every shop during that time. Like i said earlier maybe cops in hiding and rounding up kids with alcohol in bag from shops. But then those bags will disposed and bills too.. then hard to prove. I just don't see an good way to enforce this if the shops don't want to comply. 

Why just 11am-2pm....  surely kids are on lunch break then, they can buy booze if the shops sell it to them. So if the law can’t be enforced to stop kids from buying booze from 2-5pm how can’t they allow sales from 11am to 2pm ??? - it doesn’t make any sense and is simply a half measure.

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

54 minutes ago, HaoleBoy said:

No ones mentioned the asinine law that prohibits Craft Beer from being made anywhere in Thailand except by the big alcohol company monopolies - Singha, Leo, Chang.

 

These big monopolies are so worried about losing a few baht that they push this to stay in place.  Looking at US or EU there is plenty of room for small breweries and the large breweries.  These large Thai monopoly companies pay good money to keep this law in place.

 

These small breweries / Craft Beer are 1)  small businesses and would employ many young entrepreneurial Thai's giving them a sense of pride in making something in Thailand for Thai people; 2) give revenue back to the state coffers; 3) give more jobs to ensure / regulate clean processing in making the beer.

 

Small minded politicians not giving younger Thai people a chance to make something of themselves and for themselves.

 

This is an excellent point....  

 

.... But its also a different issue and has more to do with Thailand ‘wealthy and connected’ protecting Thailands wealthy and connected. Ultimately, legislation such as this (banning of the craft beer industry) is nothing more than ‘corruption’ in protecting the ‘good old boys’. 

 

 

Just imagine how great it would be to enjoy well priced locally produced craft beer....  just as the food industry in Thailand is amazing, the beer industry could be too....  its such a shame those in positions of decision making power only have self interest at heart.

 

 

 

 

 

[dinsdale]

17 minutes ago, robblok said:

Its not flawed because there is a way around that is the case with much stuff. 

 

Drugs, but people still can get drugs.. ban the law its ridiculous

Not all people who drive drunk get caught... change the law its ridiculous as people still drink and drive.

You see where Im going to.

 

Just because there is a way around it does not make it a wrong law. Unless it has zero effect. 

 

Anyway this law is just there to limit the opportunities of buying alcohol by kids. It certainly won't stop them from consuming it. It only stops those that havent planned ahead and want it at the spur of a moment. So it stops some but certainly not all. If i was a kid or someone who likes a lot of alcohol id buy it before and somewhere else. 

 

Laws never stop people who are really determined it just scares away the less determined a bit.

What you are saying is very close to if not a good definition of flawed yet you say it's not flawed. You also point out why it's a stupid law. It's a law of inconvenience rather than substance unilatertally brought in by Thaksin to flex his muscles. 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

In that case, kids can buy alcohol before 2pm and after 5pm....   So, should the sale sales of alcohol be banned completely ??....  All that the 2-5 ban achieves is a virtuous half measure - its theatre, its ineffective it side steps the real issues.

 

Why are the alcohol licensing laws in the West considered effective where as the same laws in Thailand are not ? why the need for a blanket ban here ? Answer: Because people have no regard for the law or regulations.

Perhaps the moral compass is screwed up.

Question: Is there actually an issue with Kids buying booze in the first place ????  If so, how do the authorities know this ? then, if they know this surely they can find out where the kids purchased the booze and target that shop... kind of like ‘real police work’..... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Moral and social responsibility - is it really that absent in Thailand?

It goes back to the question, how many kids really were buying alcohol for this 2-5 law being necessary ?

Or, as is quite common here, do we have one or two issues which drew attention then a knee-jerk blanket ban was made ?

We’ve seen the same thing with Big-Bikes, a couple of kids have an accident on a Big-Bike, then the government suggest licences for big-bikes. In this example, not a stupid law, but shows the ‘knee-jerk response’... when really, the parents who purchased a big-bike for their 18 year old are really at fault. 

 

 

Good solid laws need good solid enforcement - thats the way it works elsewhere, there is no reason that cannot work here IF the enforcement are pushed to enforce with consistency. 

 

Why just 11am-2pm....  surely kids are on lunch break then, they can buy booze if the shops sell it to them. So if the law can’t be enforced to stop kids from buying booze from 2-5pm how can’t they allow sales from 11am to 2pm ??? - it doesn’t make any sense and is simply a half measure.

 

 

 

 

Richard,

 

I reviewed how i thought because of a poster here. If the police just concentrate on the shops not the kids and if the fines are like 100k and closure next time. Then it can be enforced. Because if this happens shop owners have too much to lose to sell to kids.

 

I was looking at a way to check kids and just catching one is hard and thought that it would not work as you only catch a few. But if just one can bring a fine of 100k then shop owners would not risk it (if its in the news been done a few times). By doing this you force the shopowners to follow the law. 

 

I was thinking about forcing kids to obey, but its much easier to force shop owners. But only if the punishment is really high.

 

thanks @Mac Mickmanus

 

I was jus approaching the problem from the wrong angle. 

[spidermike007]

5 hours ago, NE1 said:

Wasn't the 2 - 5 ban brought in so children leaving school could not see people purchasing or drinking alcohol , as they thought it would be a bad influence on them.

A bad influence? Seeing cigarettes muted out on TV is supposed to make people less interested in smoking? Seeing nudity on film is supposed to make people desire sex less? And limiting the sale of alcohol during certain hours is supposed to encourage people to drink less?

 

And yet the fake Purity council fails to acknowledge Thailand is one of the sex capitals of SE Asia. And it has one of the highest alcohol consumption rates in the region. 

 

Lt Gen Sansern said Gen Prayut’s concern was based on a World Health Organisation (WHO) report that said Thailand was ranked fifth in the world in terms of alcohol consumption and the average number of drinkers in the 15-19 agegroup was rising 4.96% per year.

 

https://www.chiangraitimes.com/health/thailand-ranked-fifth-in-the-world-for-alcohol-consumption/

 

Thailand is the top alcohol-consuming country in ASEAN with 40 percent of drinkers found in North-East region.

According to the latest alcohol consumption data collected by World Health Organization, Thailand is ranked 1st among ASEAN countries in alcohol consumption, followed closely by Laos and the Philippines.

 

https://www.chiangraitimes.com/health/thailand-ranks-1-in-alcohol-consumption-among-asean-countries/

 

And we do not need to talk about sex, the number of minors having children, nor tobacco. Whoops. The false veneer of puritanism is not working!

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by metisdead
Illegal photo of alcohol beverages removed.

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

To be honest that is B.S. your other reply was far more sensible. People kids included don't care about the law. They do what they want to do if the chance for punishment is low. Why do you think so many people kids included use drugs. Laws alone don't work only laws combined with good enforcement.

 

 

From my admittedly limited experience , there are some delinquent rogue kids in the villages , there's probably about ten in every village school , truanting , loud motorbikes and generally miscreants .

    They are the small minority and the huge majority of kids will abide by the rules and laws 

[robblok]

Just now, dinsdale said:

What you are saying is very close to if not a good definition of flawed yet you say it's not flawed. You also point out why it's a stupid law. It's a law of inconvenience rather than substance unilatertally brought in by Thaksin to flex his muscles. 

Im saying all laws are flawed because you can't catch everyone. Laws just deter some people (the more the better) but like drug laws only a few really stop. And yes some laws are stupid.

 

However i looked at this wrongly, poster @Mac Mickmanus gave me a much better idea. 

 

Just go after the shop owners with huge fines and closure. It will be hard to catch enough kids to make a meaningful difference but if you go after shopwners you stop it at the source.

[jacko45k]

2 hours ago, Rinrada said:

In the not too distant past it was quiet acceptable to order up a "tower"  or 3 at 1.59 PM and sit around a table in Big Cs food court with your friends until 5 PM...hic.

The old Tops supermarket food court was always a boozing location for a group of Italians, or maybe Germans my memory fades. The supermarket sold beer all day so every 30 minutes one of the guys would stroll into the supermarket for a few more large bottles.

More liberal times. 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

From my admittedly limited experience , there are some delinquent rogue kids in the villages , there's probably about ten in every village school , truanting , loud motorbikes and generally miscreants .

    They are the small minority and the huge majority of kids will abide by the rules and laws 

Sure, but the question is do they consider it a bad offense. I was not considered a bad kid in my youth but even I broke laws we considered stupid or not important. I think many kids don't see drinking alcohol as that bad. I was going to bars at 15-16 already and before that age it was normal to drink at home. I probably had my first alcohol (glas of wine or shandy) before I was even 10. 

 

So even though it was against the law we did not consider it a huge crime. Different from shoplifting and damaging stuff. 

 

Kids will abide by the rules only if they consider the rules worth following. I was always told about how bad theft was and that you should not damage other peoples property but my parents never cared much about the dangers of alcohol. Was the same for other kids. I would say we viewed that totally different from shoplifting and damaging stuff. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Im saying all laws are flawed because you can't catch everyone. Laws just deter some people (the more the better) but like drug laws only a few really stop. And yes some laws are stupid.

 

However i looked at this wrongly, poster @Mac Mickmanus gave me a much better idea. 

 

Just go after the shop owners with huge fines and closure. It will be hard to catch enough kids to make a meaningful difference but if you go after shopwners you stop it at the source.

Can do what they do in the U.K .

Send some kids into shops to buy beer , if they come out with some beer , the Police waiting outside just go in and give the shop a summons to appear in Court and when they get fined , publish the news in the media and other shops will begin to comply 

[robblok]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

Can do what they do in the U.K .

Send some kids into shops to buy beer , if they come out with some beer , the Police waiting outside just go in and give the shop a summons to appear in Court and when they get fined , publish the news in the media and other shops will begin to comply 

Is that legal ? 

 

What creates entrapment in UK?

When a law enforcement officer in UK persuades an individual to perform or execute a crime which he/she would not commit in other circumstances, this is called entrapment or set-up. In other words, this is a planned situation by the police in UK to corrupt persons in acting in an illegal manner.

[ikke1959]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Apparantly, you're perfectly safe in a restaurant drinking a Coke, but as soon as a beer arrives on the table Covid immediately joins and infects you (unless you're in Phuket. Covid doesn't drink when he's in Phuket). A glass of soda is fine, but add a shot of Vodka and whaddya know? Covid is back. 

 

Drinking coffee in an indoor, air conditioned coffee shop is safe. But drinking beer at an outdoor venue or even on the beach is dangerous.

 

Yep, makes perfect sense. 

You are so right....Thailand has stupid laws for alcohol. But everywhere now you get sprayed with it to disinfect you and the trolleys. That is allowed, but drinking with your meal or outside not.. Even in movies you are not allowed to see alcohol.... But we went to Starbucks and coffee was no problem. But beer not allowed. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

Sure, but the question is do they consider it a bad offense. I was not considered a bad kid in my youth but even I broke laws we considered stupid or not important. I think many kids don't see drinking alcohol as that bad. I was going to bars at 15-16 already and before that age it was normal to drink at home. I probably had my first alcohol (glas of wine or shandy) before I was even 10. 

 

So even though it was against the law we did not consider it a huge crime. Different from shoplifting and damaging stuff. 

 

Kids will abide by the rules only if they consider the rules worth following. I was always told about how bad theft was and that you should not damage other peoples property but my parents never cared much about the dangers of alcohol. Was the same for other kids. I would say we viewed that totally different from shoplifting and damaging stuff. 

European kids are quite different to Thai kids , underage drinking is quite common in Europe and you often see kids hanging around on the streets drinking and causing mischief , I have yet to see any Thai kids drinking on the streets and being a nuisance .

   I really dont think that kids drinking in Thailand is a problem , as it doesnt seem to happen  

[RichardColeman]

Never known a Ma and Pa store that wasn't selling beer 24/7/365.

 

That said, if you cannot plan ahead for a alcohol ban for a few days I think you have other issues.

[robblok]

8 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

European kids are quite different to Thai kids , underage drinking is quite common in Europe and you often see kids hanging around on the streets drinking and causing mischief , I have yet to see any Thai kids drinking on the streets and being a nuisance .

   I really dont think that kids drinking in Thailand is a problem , as it doesnt seem to happen  

I think you might be comparing the UK with rest of EU. But in the Netherlands kids don't drink on the street they do it somewhere out of sight. Why do you assume that Thai kids are so stupid to do it in full view of people ?

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Never known a Ma and Pa store that wasn't selling beer 24/7/365.

 

That said, if you cannot plan ahead for a alcohol ban for a few days I think you have other issues.

You know i dont often drink, so i at times i just get caught out by going to shops at the wrong time and needing to buy alcohol as its not really on my mind. I think for many its a convenience thing. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

17 minutes ago, robblok said:

Is that legal ? 

 

What creates entrapment in UK?

When a law enforcement officer in UK persuades an individual to perform or execute a crime which he/she would not commit in other circumstances, this is called entrapment or set-up. In other words, this is a planned situation by the police in UK to corrupt persons in acting in an illegal manner.

No, its legal 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-15528346

[choff56]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

True Richard, its because of lazy enforcement. However in case of the kids not buying alcohol how would cops have to enforce it. The moment a cop steps into a shop sales are cancelled and nobody gets caught. Its not JUST about lazy police. Its really not practical at all. How do you see enforcement of this law. The moment a cop walks in he cant check if sales have been made and he cant catch them in the act as they can just hide it. Maybe standing outside of shops and searching kids who exit the shop. 

 

Laws can only be enforced with help of the public, if there is a large resentment against a law then too many will break it and it cant be policed. (resentment in this case is lost sales). In my country they just don't sell to minors as they know its not allowed even if the risk of getting caught is low. So they obey the law even though the checks are not that normal (and often done with cctv and till receipts afterwards ) While in Thailand no checks means not obeying. 

 

Good solid laws need some way of ease of enforcement too. I don't see how they can enforce the 11-14 law in a meaningful way. Unless you want a cop in every shop during that time. Like i said earlier maybe cops in hiding and rounding up kids with alcohol in bag from shops. But then those bags will disposed and bills too.. then hard to prove. I just don't see an good way to enforce this if the shops don't want to comply. 

You force the shops to comply by making them ID everybody if they want to sell alcohol. No ID, No alcohol. A popular sign at cash registers in America reads: We I.D. anybody under 30 years of age.  Another popular sign reads: "You must have been born on or before September 29th 2544 to purchase alcohol with proof of I.D.. And the police could check enforcement with occasional spot checks in problem areas. It's not rocket science.

[Will B Good]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

I think you might be comparing the UK with rest of EU. But in the Netherlands kids don't drink on the street they do it somewhere out of sight. Why do you assume that Thai kids are so stupid to do it in full view of people ?

Lived in Germany for 25 years and was amazed at the apparent maturity of kids 15-20 ish. 

 

Never saw any 'youngsters' in bars, which was weird and only ever got..."arbent" .....walking passed the hardest of looking gangs.....maybe got lucky.

[RafPinto]

5 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

First time I ever heard a new term for me was an American guy and we were about to drive into town.

He asked if I wanted a "Road Coke". (Bottle of booze for the trip).

In Oz we call that a "Traveller" 

He meant a cockroach.

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

I think you might be comparing the UK with rest of EU. But in the Netherlands kids don't drink on the street they do it somewhere out of sight. Why do you assume that Thai kids are so stupid to do it in full view of people ?

I walk all over town , often take the back-streets and don't ever recall seeing any youngsters drinking 

[Mac Mickmanus]

22 minutes ago, robblok said:

I think you might be comparing the UK with rest of EU. But in the Netherlands kids don't drink on the street they do it somewhere out of sight. Why do you assume that Thai kids are so stupid to do it in full view of people ?

Actually thinking about it . 

When I was a youngster , kids often drank on the street corners .

   When I was back in the U.K last year , I noticed that the streets were empty and that youngsters these days tend to stay at home playing on their computers

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Actually thinking about it . 

When I was a youngster , kids often drank on the street corners .

   When I was back in the U.K last year , I noticed that the streets were empty and that youngsters these days tend to stay at home playing on their computers

That is your conclusion, my conclusion is they hide it better. 

 

You said you never see it in the streets, i never saw it in the streets either and also not when young. We just did not drink in streets found other places to do that. Friends where parents were gone and other hideouts.

 

Just because you don't see it does not mean its not happening. I would make sure nobody saw me drinking in small villages that is for sure you know how gossip goes.

[daveAustin]

No secret idiots in charge want a different, sterile Thailand. The pandemic was convenient for them. Surprised if it ever goes back to the way it was. 

[jacko45k]

48 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I have yet to see any Thai kids drinking on the streets and being a nuisance .

Been here for Songkran? Usually plenty about.....

[HaoleBoy]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Tell me how you would enforce it, give some practical examples. 

I did if you read my post.

Just like in the West you must catch the kids buying at that moment.  West has the same problem as here.

Why do you act like the police can't do anything or shouldn't be expected to do anything here?  CCTV isn't used in the US to catch illegal alcohol sales ...

 

The Thai Gov / Police likes to fix a problem with a sledge hammer and not use laws and enforcement.  You seem to go along with this.

[Rampant Rabbit]

Id  just  liketo add...........I  couldnt care  less, I dont drink alcohol although Lindt Cognac chocolate  has  always  gotten me excited.......hic!

[robblok]

10 minutes ago, HaoleBoy said:

I did if you read my post.

Just like in the West you must catch the kids buying at that moment.  West has the same problem as here.

Why do you act like the police can't do anything or shouldn't be expected to do anything here?  CCTV isn't used in the US to catch illegal alcohol sales ...

 

The Thai Gov / Police likes to fix a problem with a sledge hammer and not use laws and enforcement.  You seem to go along with this.

Revised my opinion after looking at it from a different angle. My problem was that is hard to enforce enough to change kids their minds. As the chance to catch them is too low. No way they can change that in Thailand. 

 

However if they just go after the shops with huge fines and closure then it can be solved. Easier to police shops then to police kids.

 

My cctv thing was more about the fact that you can't have police at shops all the time and the chance that they catch a kid at a given time when they are there is slim. So a huge majority would get away and never get the message. However you need only one or two kids that result in high fines to a shop to send a message that they should police the kids or face the consequences.

 

That approach would work. 

 

The difference betwen US / EU and Thailand is that shops are more law abiding because of the trouble they can get in. So there is a lot less policing to do as laws are broken less often. In Thailand this kind of law breaking is normal would require huge amount of work. But NOT if they have tough rules for the shop and like a second time closure of shop. 

 

(not taking corruption into account as that is always a problem)

[toofarnorth]

5 hours ago, DoctorB said:

 

 

Are you sure about that? I recall a whole associated hoo-haa about alcohol not being sold at all within 100 meters of schools etc., which groaned on for several months before being quietly forgotten. Probably it was more about stopping teenagers buying alcohol for themselves.

I remember that ! I used a small bar up here some nights , maybe 2 or 3 customers. One day it was closed , I asked next door why . Yes the other side of a small klong was the back wall of a school. 8 Pm the school was shut but still too near a school. I ask you for gosh sakes ! Oh the bar is still there many years later but only does cold non alc. drinks now.

[toofarnorth]

4 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Id  just  liketo add...........I  couldnt care  less, I dont drink alcohol although Lindt Cognac chocolate  has  always  gotten me excited.......hic!

My bro. in England at 76 yo says a sniff of the barmaids apron is enough for him.