The Infectious Nature of Misinformaton

[shdmn]

6 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

I don't even like to use "anti-vax" anymore. Not on here anyway. On forums like these, that term is bandied around so casually that it's almost lost its meaning. And the sad thing is, this abuse has so blatantly been perpetrated for the sake of their egos and to cover-up their own poor argumentation, and even to get cheap, ignorant "likes".

The infamous one the comes to mind was the thread headlined  84 or (86%) of deaths being among the vaccinated that turns out to be a near useless statistic after a few seconds of reading.

Would you prefer I use the word "anti-vax sympathetic". ????

[GrandPapillon]

4 minutes ago, shdmn said:

Again, in your opinion.  Scientists know.  I know.   Instead of "we" you should be saying "I don't really know"

nope, scientists do not know, and only search for things, most research is there to be proven wrong, and they often are

 

being wrong is not a bad thing in science, it gives you the path to the truth ????

 

"You know" means f*k all in science and the real world ????

Edited October 3, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

atlantis: I am not wounded / outraged / dumb/ offended / faux / feeling trolled / misinformed.

I can handle over-lengthy misguided patronising posts all day…..with clear fact - based arguments.

 

compulsory vax for a few thousand (surviving) anti - vaxx loons, endangering others, for community protection, is not comparable, or morally equivalent, to denying the vax protection to millions of normal sensible people,thereby sentencing some of them to a cruel death.

 

Anyone who thinks that is a suitable subject for “ legendary” mockery , with solitary post “trophy” ,

is indeed to be pitied………or certified…..funny it ain’t.

 

I would disagree with compulsory vax on basic freedom grounds. I am fully vaxxed with AZ so these morons cant kill or hospitalize me. BUT the due consequences for them should be full isolation, as a group, from civil society. ……….after first visiting the dying covid victims in ICU begging to be vaxxed….

 

neither am I troubled by, or involved in, misinformation or disinformation.

I have a trained rational educated mind, capable of establishing/separating key facts from fiction.

hope we are clear and done now.

 

 

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

anti - vaxxers are completely discredited by scientific facts.

the term “:anti vaxxer” is clear, succinct & definitive.

the infinitismal risks of vaxing or not vaxing are published in summary  by the gold standard impartial covid- trialling medical institutes like

FDA (USA) EMA (EU), MHRA (UK).

western govt. statistical covid data is sufficiently reliable.

avoid random layman comments or pseudo - scientific opinion.

 

[GrandPapillon]

vaccination does work, that's not being questioned, the issue the anti-vaxx have is with possible long term consequences, and they might actually be right, but we won't know before a while

 

you can't "ignore" their claims just because the vaccine is a success on a "short term" basis, they might be right in the long term, at this stage nobody knows

 

I don't think it's a bad thing that anti-vaxx exist, because if they are right in the long run, they will be the only ones "saved" from long term effects

 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[Atlantis]

47 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

I can handle over-lengthy misguided patronising posts all day…..with clear fact - based arguments.

I sure hope "over-lengthy" wasn't reference to any of my relatively brief posts to a fairly lengthy OP. But I'll try and keep it short anyway.

 

1. I stand by my opinion about hysteria.

1 hour ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

Anyone who thinks that is a suitable subject for “ legendary” mockery , with solitary post “trophy” ,

is indeed to be pitied………or certified…..funny it ain’t.

It was clearly sarcastic mockery: 1. context, and 2. his explicit statement soon afterwards. Great tongue-in-cheek push-back in a thread where people supported forced immunizations. Considering any push risks warnings / suspensions: Legendary.

 

2. You are misinformed*:

50 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

compulsory vax for a few thousand

you are incorrect by many many orders of magnitude. As of last week, New York state alone had more than 70,000 healthcare workers (only recently hailed as "heroes" , many of whom refuse the vaccinations.

3. You are not following the science*:

53 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

(surviving) anti-vaxx loons

many of those who refuse the vaccines have already contracted and indeed (borrowing your parentheses here) survived

covid-19. Especially those poor folk in NY state. No scientist or health professional would describe this group as "lunatics", including Dr. Fauci.

 

4. You are spreading disinformation:

58 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

I am fully vaxxed with AZ so these morons cant kill or hospitalize me.

Unfortunately, those morons can indeed hospitalize and kill you. Breakthrough infections are not a conspiracy*. Falling efficacy of Covid vaccinnes are not a conspiracy*

Given the above, I cannot as things stand support your self-appraisal:
 

1 hour ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

I have a trained rational educated mind, capable of establishing/separating key facts from fiction.

*P.S. Isn't it annoying when people post like this?

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, GrandPapillon said:

but that's the thing, we don't really know. We can't assume that our version of the truth is "true"

 

anti-vax do raise valid questions regarding the safety of vaccine, it happened before, back in the early 90s with Hepatitis vaccine, you probably weren't born then ????

 

No. The vaccines are safe, that's been proven. Sad some argue this.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, Atlantis said:

I don't even like to use "anti-vax" anymore. Not on here anyway. On forums like these, that term is bandied around so casually that it's almost lost its meaning. And the sad thing is, this abuse has so blatantly been perpetrated for the sake of their egos and to cover-up their own poor argumentation, and even to get cheap, ignorant "likes".

An infamous one that comes to mind was the thread headlined  84 or (86%) of deaths being among the vaccinated that turns out to be a near useless statistic after a few seconds of reading.

A truly useless and inaccurate statistic. One only repeated by anti vaxxers.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, GrandPapillon said:

nope, scientists do not know, and only search for things, most research is there to be proven wrong, and they often are

 

being wrong is not a bad thing in science, it gives you the path to the truth ????

 

"You know" means f*k all in science and the real world ????

BS. Scientists do know . To say most research is proven wrong is just trolling. Please.stop.

[Jeffr2]

32 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

vaccination does work, that's not being questioned, the issue the anti-vaxx have is with possible long term consequences, and they might actually be right, but we won't know before a while

 

you can't "ignore" their claims just because the vaccine is a success on a "short term" basis, they might be right in the long term, at this stage nobody knows

 

I don't think it's a bad thing that anti-vaxx exist, because if they are right in the long run, they will be the only ones "saved" from long term effects

 

 

Come on. Millions of lives are being saved TODAY. Who knows what the future holds, but guaranteed, without the jabs, we'd be in terrible shape now. Impossible to deny that. Impossible.

[Atlantis]

44 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

anti - vaxxers are completely discredited by scientific facts.

the term “:anti vaxxer” is clear, succinct & definitive.

the infinitismal risks of vaxing or not vaxing are published in summary  by the gold standard impartial covid- trialling medical institutes like

FDA (USA) EMA (EU), MHRA (UK).

western govt. statistical covid data is sufficiently reliable.

avoid random layman comments or pseudo - scientific opinion.

 

It's really unfortunate to have remind people that their comments on forums like these are really very very different from "the science" i.e. the western medical institutions and fairly transparent civil service apparatus.

People think they are objectively paraphrasing scientific concepts / sources / factual reporting when really what comes out is a mish-mash of (strong) opinion and upended facts. Too often, the actual comments left on TVF resembles a game of Chinese-whispers.
 

[Jeffr2]

14 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

I sure hope "over-lengthy" wasn't reference to any of my relatively brief posts to a fairly lengthy OP. But I'll try and keep it short anyway.

 

1. I stand by my opinion about hysteria.

It was clearly sarcastic mockery: 1. context, and 2. his explicit statement soon afterwards. Great tongue-in-cheek push-back in a thread where people supported forced immunizations. Considering any push risks warnings / suspensions: Legendary.

 

2. You are misinformed*:

you are incorrect by many many orders of magnitude. As of last week, New York state alone had more than 70,000 healthcare workers (only recently hailed as "heroes" , many of whom refuse the vaccinations.

3. You are not following the science*:

many of those who refuse the vaccines have already contracted and indeed (borrowing your parentheses here) survived

covid-19. Especially those poor folk in NY state. No scientist or health professional would describe this group as "lunatics", including Dr. Fauci.

 

4. You are spreading disinformation:

Unfortunately, those morons can indeed hospitalize and kill you. Breakthrough infections are not a conspiracy*. Falling efficacy of Covid vaccinnes are not a conspiracy*

Given the above, I cannot as things stand support your self-appraisal:
 

*P.S. Isn't it annoying when people post like this?

Health care workers who refuse the vaccine and thus put their patients at risk are NOT heroes. More like selfish and ignorant cowards.

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

It's really unfortunate to have remind people that their comments on forums like these are really very very different from "the science" i.e. the western medical institutions and fairly transparent civil service apparatus.

People think they are objectively paraphrasing scientific concepts / sources / factual reporting when really what comes out is a mish-mash of (strong) opinion and upended facts. Too often, the actual comments left on TVF resembles a game of Chinese-whispers.
 

But it's getting better on this forum. Most who've spread misinformation are now gone.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

fair riposte Atlantis; higher standard than before; truly did not realize the extent of the anti vaxx lunacy in USA, make that “ few hundred thousands” then; but immune people who have survived covid obviously do not need the vax; good point on efficacy but shall be guided by AZ notices on when booster(s) required.

 

yes, I am a “big picture” guy who drills down from the top of the data mountain only so far, big ideas, big statistics, big outcomes only……

[madmen]

 

Misinformation is reposted here on all topics over and over untill it becomes fact. It's always negative of course and it doesn't help that TV only releases bad news. It's a toxic environment 

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

atlantis: I forgot your “breakthrough” infections; my AZ gives me full 100% (99.99 then!) protection from death or hospital, per FDA AZ Phase III Vax Trials.can you actually name even one case in ten thousand as “breakthrough” of a fully AZ vaxxed person dying in hospital.  

bet in fact its zero……no UK case where it was invented and has the most usage….. no known case in thailand either……or anywhere that I heard

so disingenuous to say I’m spreading misinformation…

 

and can you stop using that word “very”…. and term “very very” …..unlettered practice.

[Jeffr2]

18 minutes ago, madmen said:

 

Misinformation is reposted here on all topics over and over untill it becomes fact. It's always negative of course and it doesn't help that TV only releases bad news. It's a toxic environment 

Bad news sells. Good news doesn't. Look at the success of Fox. Nuff said.

 

Thaivisa mods do a very good job removing misinformation. Kudos to them.

[Atlantis]

@WhiteBuffaloATM

so disingenuous to say I’m spreading misinformation…

You're a native speaker right? Then why are you pretending to not get it? The underlined sections are parodies of people who throw about 'misinformation' as if it was going out of fashion tomorrow. It's certainly not my definition.

Eons ago in 201x, posters would simply use the word "wrong" or "incorrect".  Hyperbole, figurative language was also understood and tolerated. Even your 'few thousand unvaxed lunatics' - a very charitable Trumpian interpretation would be - 'oh he's exaggerating for effect, I get his general gist, even if he is far far off the correct number. It used to be fairly standard not to attribute the worst motivations to people with different views to your own.
 

"so disingenuous to say I’m spreading misinformation…" That's how many people on here and elsewhere feel when arguing. And it might surprise you that some of those labelled as peddlers of misinformation and disinformation (who cares what the difference is right?) are actually vaccinated, some before you.
 

[ozimoron]

20 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

"so disingenuous to say I’m spreading misinformation…" That's how many people on here and elsewhere feel when arguing. And it might surprise you that some of those labelled as peddlers of misinformation and disinformation (who cares what the difference is right?) are actually vaccinated, some before you.

Not really, hypocracy isn't an unusual trait. Your posts are incoherent and impossible to understand.

[Atlantis]

2 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

vaccination does work, that's not being questioned, the issue the anti-vaxx have is with possible long term consequences, and they might actually be right, but we won't know before a while

 

you can't "ignore" their claims just because the vaccine is a success on a "short term" basis, they might be right in the long term, at this stage nobody knows

 

I don't think it's a bad thing that anti-vaxx exist, because if they are right in the long run, they will be the only ones "saved" from long term effects

 

 

I think the issue is actually a bit deeper than what Donald Rumsfeld quipped - despite the better understood risks of other vaccines that have been around longer.

A lot of people who push back violently might just have a very different grasp of tail risk to you. Or they just don't quite appreciate how complex the human body is.
Or if you want to be unkind, they might simply be very ignorant of problems later with stuff that was original deemed to be safe. There might be some young millennials, late Gen-Z on here too young or too glued to Twitter to be sufficiently aware, treating all Covid-related discussions like team sports.

It's the lazy closed-mindedness masquerading as responsible citizenship that bothers me the most. Some of the attempts at the pro-vaccine arguments on here...that should be so easy to make....are messed up so badly, it's embarrassing.
 

[Atlantis]

6 hours ago, sucit said:

Exactly. This is exactly what big pharma and governments want you to say. And you think you are fighting the good fight against misinformation lol

 

The true information is being suppressed. What people fail to realize is most people against the vaccine are simply stating facts: we don’t know what will happen with that yet, it’s very experimental, there has never been a vaccine like it rolled out this fast. 
 

Those are facts. And tomorrow everything could change, and all those who got vaxxed could be at a disadvantage somehow. Maybe not likely but you’re not getting the point if you don’t see what I Amy saying. 

Hi sucit.

I get your general points about certain self-evident aspects about the current vaccine. Unfortunately, beware of the Word Police when it comes to certain words that seem like a normal adjective in most other languages e.g. "experimental"  has come to mean something very specific on this and other forums.

As for your comment, "the true information is being suppressed", yeah I share your frustrations at censorship and even outright misinformation by mainstream TV and print media who really should know better. It's unfortunate that so many on this forum will automatically and conveniently think you're talking about microchips-in-vaccines nonsense. Some people just don't have a clue with regards to the level of misinformation supporting their own priors. Like I replied to the OP, a sad number of people honestly think that "misinformation" can only be anti-vaccine misinformation.

"and all those who got vaxxed could be at a disadvantage somehow" - you're actually already much closer than you realize! The super-immunity that's been well documented is in the people who 1. acquired natural immunity first and then 2. took a vaccine shot anyway. Those doing it the other way round forego that opportunity. Obviously, no one has yet figured out a way of how to give you the actual virus without seriously risking your health!

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

Those doing it the other way round forego that opportunity.

Link or lies?

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, Atlantis said:

Hello Chomper

Thank you for your often long and detailed posts, often with decent sources. I note that you're one of the less hysterical people on here and I've read from beginning to end a few of your very long exchanges with other posters.

Your post above is very problematic and I'm glad that you included:
 

This last part in bold is the blind spot of so many people all-too-happy to screech "misinformation!" "conspiracy theorist!". More often than not, it is an issue of the reasoning around facts fairly uncontroversial and neutral facts, and the language used, rather than any false underlying statistics or factoid.

We're all prone to it, including me, and you. I would point others to your mega back-and-fro with another user (begins with T) on a recent tread about mandatory vaccination.

But the biggest blind spot of those criticizing misinformation online is that so many people forget that misinformation, as it it properly defined, cuts both ways. Yes the most prominent examples may come from easily verifiable junk - but that is no excuse to conveniently abuse that term, misinformation, to actually refer to "anything that is novel to me", "an interpretation that I think is silly" or simply, as you imply, any view that you judge to be based on "misinformation".

Misinformation from reputable press outlets and those in positions of power are huge part of the problem.  But to you, misinformation can only ever come 'in support of' those with anything negative to say about the status quo in any way. Knee-jerk reaction: "misinformation".

 

I’m not interested in the defense of semantics.

 

You’ve selectively chosen a single sentence from my post and then parsed that.

 

I have been precise in the examples I have given and my logical argument that misinformation is being fed to people in the form of misinterpretations of research (often not formally published), reports and data.

 

Moreover, I have observed that these misinterpreted ‘sources’ are often dredged from obscure corners of the internet (yet commonly referred to by many).

 

There is a clear effort to disseminate harmful disinformation and it has consequences, sometimes deadly consequences - refer far too many unvaccinated people dying of COVID.

 

I’m not buying your ‘both-side-ism’, only one side of the vaccine debate is encouraging people to not take a vaccine that dramatically reduces their chances of infection, serious illness, hospitalization or death.

 

You’ve obviously paid my posts some attention, and I thank you for that. I suggest you take a look at any of my posts crunching the numbers in the repetitive reposting of identical misinterpretation of UK COVID data.

 

Observe the following:

 

1. The repetitive nature of the misinformation posts.

2. The commonality of the misinterpretation of the report data.

3. The mathematical illiteracy of the people who believe they’ve uncovered some hidden truth.

 

4. (And by no means least) the numbers, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands  of unvaccinated and unnecessary infections, serious illnesses, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

 

The issue is not semantics and my point of view is not one sentence which you in any case had to parse to make your both-side-ism argument.

 

Only one side is killing people.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Atlantis said:

Hi sucit.

I get your general points about certain self-evident aspects about the current vaccine. Unfortunately, beware of the Word Police when it comes to certain words that seem like a normal adjective in most other languages e.g. "experimental"  has come to mean something very specific on this and other forums.

As for your comment, "the true information is being suppressed", yeah I share your frustrations at censorship and even outright misinformation by mainstream TV and print media who really should know better. It's unfortunate that so many on this forum will automatically and conveniently think you're talking about microchips-in-vaccines nonsense. Some people just don't have a clue with regards to the level of misinformation supporting their own priors. Like I replied to the OP, a sad number of people honestly think that "misinformation" can only be anti-vaccine misinformation.

"and all those who got vaxxed could be at a disadvantage somehow" - you're actually already much closer than you realize! The super-immunity that's been well documented is in the people who 1. acquired natural immunity first and then 2. took a vaccine shot anyway. Those doing it the other way round forego that opportunity. Obviously, no one has yet figured out a way of how to give you the actual virus without seriously risking your health!

We look forward to you providing accurate, verifiable, logical arguments to combat misinformation you come come across.

 

These references of yours to ‘’Word Police’, ‘censorship’ some people just don’t have a clue’  don’t cut the mustard.

 

Having recognized this truth you might understand why it’s important to present facts, truth and both in context:

 

”Obviously, no one has yet figured out a way of how to give you the actual virus without seriously risking your health!”

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

We look forward to you providing accurate, verifiable, logical arguments to combat misinformation you come come across.

 

These references of yours to ‘’Word Police’, ‘censorship’ some people just don’t have a clue’  don’t cut the mustard.

 

Having recognized this truth you might understand why it’s important to present facts, truth and both in context:

 

”Obviously, no one has yet figured out a way of how to give you the actual virus without seriously risking your health!”

Atlantis is engaging on a deliberate path of obfuscation, innuendo and unintelligible posts without any substantiation of claims to discredit posters here while avoiding fact checking and sanctions from admins here.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Atlantis said:

@WhiteBuffaloATM

so disingenuous to say I’m spreading misinformation…

You're a native speaker right? Then why are you pretending to not get it? The underlined sections are parodies of people who throw about 'misinformation' as if it was going out of fashion tomorrow. It's certainly not my definition.

Eons ago in 201x, posters would simply use the word "wrong" or "incorrect".  Hyperbole, figurative language was also understood and tolerated. Even your 'few thousand unvaxed lunatics' - a very charitable Trumpian interpretation would be - 'oh he's exaggerating for effect, I get his general gist, even if he is far far off the correct number. It used to be fairly standard not to attribute the worst motivations to people with different views to your own.
 

"so disingenuous to say I’m spreading misinformation…" That's how many people on here and elsewhere feel when arguing. And it might surprise you that some of those labelled as peddlers of misinformation and disinformation (who cares what the difference is right?) are actually vaccinated, some before you.
 

If I stated in a post ‘Member X is spreading disinformation or lying’ I would be accusing member X of a deliberate act.

 

This might be viewed as inflammatory or otherwise in breach of forum rules.

 

 

If I state in a post (as I often do) ‘Member X is spreading disinformation’ I am challenging the information, not the member. 

When I then build a logical and verifiable argument against the misinformation I am engaging in reasoned debate. 

 

Sometimes I do get rather tired of self evidently nonsense posts and just observe them as ‘hogwash’.

 

I also try to avoid the sophistry so often cloaked in semantics.

 

Misinformation is the term I chose to use in the title of this thread, the subject is not semantics.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Well-researched, fact-checked journalism citing credible sources and with well-reasoned op-ed pieces tends to be behind paywalls, regardless of whether the publication in question is on the left or right of the political spectrum. Misinformation, disinformation, outright lies and conspiracy theories tend to be found on websites that do not charge admission. This does not entirely explain how misinformation spreads so easily, but I think it contributes to the problem.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Well-researched, fact-checked journalism citing credible sources and with well-reasoned op-ed pieces tends to be behind paywalls, regardless of whether the publication in question is on the left or right of the political spectrum. Misinformation, disinformation, outright lies and conspiracy theories tend to be found on websites that do not charge admission. This does not entirely explain how misinformation spreads so easily, but I think it contributes to the problem.

This is indeed part of the problem.

 

As is demonizing the media.

 

It’s no mistake that anti-vaxxers, frequently,  in fits of ‘free thinking’,  attack the media.

[sucit]

9 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

It's NOT experimental. Saying that is a violation of forum rules AND the current laws in Thailand.

 

What's very likely, and is happening now, is that with no vaccine, your chances of dying are immensely greater than if you got the jabs. No speculation there. Just the facts. In real time.

100% you are part of a long term experiment if you vax now. How on earth do you deny this. It’s obvious you are not objective. Just answer: what are the long term effects (say five years) of the vaccine? Oh, you don’t know. News: that means it’s experimental. They do trials for up to 10-15 years on all other vaccines for a reason. 
 

I agree. Older people should probably take the vaccine. We don’t know for certain yet but most likely their chances will fare much better with the vaccine. 
 

As for 12 year old kids and other healthy people. Well I would leave it up to them if I was in charge. But I just have no idea why on gods green earth anyone would want to vaccinate a child who is in no danger with a yet to be proven in the long term vaccine. It seems past insanity to me. What exactly is the problem? What is the danger? Oh kids are not in danger. Well ok then.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, sucit said:

100% you are part of a long term experiment if you vax now. How on earth do you deny this. It’s obvious you are not objective. Just answer: what are the long term effects (say five years) of the vaccine? Oh, you don’t know. News: that means it’s experimental. They do trials for up to 10-15 years on all other vaccines for a reason. 
 

I agree. Older people should probably take the vaccine. We don’t know for certain yet but most likely their chances will fare much better with the vaccine. 
 

As for 12 year old kids and other healthy people. Well I would leave it up to them if I was in charge. But I just have no idea why on gods green earth anyone would want to vaccinate a child who is in no danger with a yet to be proven in the long term vaccine. It seems past insanity to me. What exactly is the problem? What is the danger? Oh kids are not in danger. Well ok then.

The vaccines are not ‘experimental’.

 

Dreaming up possible long term effects without any basis to support their existence is ‘dreaming stuff up’.

 

The data is in, the vaccines are dramatically reducing infections, serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

The data is also coming in on the actual long term health impacts of COVID amongst those who survive infection.

 

Chicken Little’s research remains unpublished, reportedly having failed peer review.