Can anyone explain if their is any logic to the government protocols to prevent covid.

[Longwood50]

The same government that is banning alcohol at restaurants and bars approved the Pattaya Music Festival. 
Does the science show that Covid doesn't spread so long as there is music playing. 
 

[Scott]

I certainly can't explain all of the things that any government does or doesn't do.  Alcohol does not increase the chances of Covid, but the social nature of drinking and the lowering of inhibitions does.   I know where I am currently staying in the US, they opened bars and restaurants and there was a massive surge in cases.   They closed both and cases dropped.  They then reopened restaurants and cases rose, but not drastically.  The decision was made to allow restaurants to open with limited indoor dining.  It was a trade off, some increase for economic gain.  

 

Music festivals, if held outdoors with masks are not without risk, but outside activities, with masks and some level of social distancing should not result in a spike in cases.  

 

 

[KhunLA]

IMHO ... no, none of it makes sense.  Not at the cost of the world economies.

 

Personally I would have thought better sense just to let the virus run it's course, and we'd probably be done with it by now.  Well the worst over anyway.  You really can't stop the inevitable, it's a virus, it will make it's way through, as it has shown, impossible to stop.

 

If high risk and not the healthiest, then YOU need to practice extreme social distancing

(I am (68) and I do) & measures YOU are comfortable with, not the rest of the world.

 

Just my opinion and agree to disagree.

Edited November 11, 2021 by KhunLA

[Scott]

13 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

IMHO ... no, none of it makes sense.  Not at the cost of the world economies.

 

Personally I would have thought better sense just to let the virus run it's course, and we'd probably be done with it by now.  Well the worst over anyway.  You really can't stop the inevitable, it's a virus, it will make it's way through, as it has shown, impossible to stop.

 

If high risk and not the healthiest, then YOU need to practice extreme social distancing

(I am (68) and I do) & measures YOU are comfortable with, not the rest of the world.

 

Just my opinion and agree to disagree.

The economies would have been devastated regardless.  It is simply too virulent to not have a major impact on the economies.  There were, and would have been more people sick at the same time.   The hospitals and medical facilities would have reached near total collapse (they did in some places even with mitigation).   People do not perform well when they are sick or have to attend to sick family members.  

 

I think economists and public health officials will, in time, offer us more insight on that issue.   Keep in mind the early measures were to 'flatten the curve', which was more about spreading out the infection and ensuring the medical resources were available to as many as possible.  

 

We also have to remember that with each passing month and year, more people move into the higher risk areas.  More people develop heart disease, diabetes, get cancer, need transplants and just plain get older.  

 

You are correct that those at the highest risk need to be proactive in protecting themselves.  I am fully vaccinated and have had my booster.  I still avoid indoor shopping, when possible and grocery shop early before the stores are busy and crowded.  I do so as fast as possible.  

We have to many people in congregate living facilities who at the dependent on younger people who may cause exposure.  

 

I don't fully agree with all your points, but in the end, unless vaccines and treatments are made available world wide, we will live with it until it burns through the entire world population.  Whether it will burn out or be reduced to embers that flare up occasionally remains to be seen.  

 

 

 

[asiam110]

Quote

Personally I would have thought better sense just to let the virus run it's course, and we'd probably be done with it by now.  Well the worst over anyway.  You really can't stop the inevitable, it's a virus, it will make it's way through, as it has shown, impossible to stop.

Agreed. We've now surrendered to the fact that everyone will get covid, and multiple times, most probably have already had it at least once. If we adopted this attitude on day 1 we'd have averted hundreds of thousands of suicides, prevented millions of people becoming destitute, prevent hundreds of millions of people from losing a significant portion of their disposable income, kept economies vibrant and, perhaps most important, not halted the growth of our children (in every other aspect than physical) - they closed the damn parks <deleted>, they kept toddlers away from nusery, 6-12yr away from junior school. It's absolute brutal insanity driven by fear and push by damn liberals

 

[grain]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

IMHO ... no, none of it makes sense.  Not at the cost of the world economies.

 

Personally I would have thought better sense just to let the virus run it's course, and we'd probably be done with it by now.  Well the worst over anyway.  You really can't stop the inevitable, it's a virus, it will make it's way through, as it has shown, impossible to stop.

 

If high risk and not the healthiest, then YOU need to practice extreme social distancing

(I am (68) and I do) & measures YOU are comfortable with, not the rest of the world.

 

Just my opinion and agree to disagree.

Yep, it's looking that way, should have let it rip and we'd more than likely be out of it now. 

[Longwood50]

9 hours ago, Scott said:

Music festivals, if held outdoors with masks are not without risk, but outside activities, with masks and some level of social distancing should not result in a spike in cases.  

So let me understand.  If you have a restaurant or bar that is outside with lets say 50 patrons but serving alcohol that is more dangerous than a music festival with thousands gathered together.  And, that those gathered to listen to a music festival will observe an appropriate level of social distancing but those sitting at tables 3 meters apart wont

[Longwood50]

6 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Personally I would have thought better sense just to let the virus run it's course,

I agree with you.  I believe all of this focus on masks, quarantines, social distancing, alcohol prohibitions is nothing but a kabuki dance instituted to create the illusion that those measures are really "effective" 

If you look at Europe the only example you have of a country that for the most part did what you said and let the virus run its course was Sweden.  Though Sweden's covid rate of infection is higher than neighboring Norway, Denmark, and Finland.  Is is lower than Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands and Belgium.  

There are those who say you can't compare outside of Scandinavia.  Which makes no sense since Estonia is closer to Finland than Sweden and Belgium and the Netherlands are about as close to Denmark as Denmark is to Sweden. 

Why there are such aberrations I don't know.  It is as baffling as why the urban area of Washington DC in the USA has one of the lowest covid infection rates despite being the most densely populated and states like North Dakota, South Dakota, South Dakota, Alaska and Utah have the highest rates of covid infection in the USA despite being some of the least densely populated. 

Florida which has probably the most lax rules on covid protocols has recently posted the lowest rate of new infections and that is despite having a very elderly population.  

 

[Scott]

3 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

So let me understand.  If you have a restaurant or bar that is outside with lets say 50 patrons but serving alcohol that is more dangerous than a music festival with thousands gathered together.  And, that those gathered to listen to a music festival will observe an appropriate level of social distancing but those sitting at tables 3 meters apart wont

Whoa, there!  He asked for an explanation.  I didn't for a moment say I agreed with it.  Pretty much any outside event with social distancing is reasonably safe, including restaurants.  Bars and drinking a little more complex.  People having drinks with their meal aren't really much of a danger.  People visiting their local pub for an evening of imbibing are likely to be talking and socializing and that's moving well into the danger zone.  

Where I am currently living they opened the bars and restaurants and experienced a major spike in cases.  Bars were closed and cases dropped drastically.  A lot of those were bars with outdoor seating, but it also has a couple of universities and a lot of students. 

You mentioned the cases in DC vs those in the Dakotas, Utah, & Alaska.  I visited Utah, Idaho, Montana and the Dakotas at the end of Oct and early this month.  Some of them had instituted emergency and critical care protocols.  The large increase is due to two factors, first vaccination rates are low and masks are almost never worn.  Washington, DC has a vaccination rate of nearly 65% and North Dakota has 48%.  DC is under federal control and has a mask mandate.  The states with high rates do not.   

The final point is that viral infections such as Covid come and go in waves. 

 

[Longwood50]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

The final point is that viral infections such as Covid come and go in waves. 

The point was that Thailand was and still is instituting draconian measures to stem social gathering.  Public restaurants, bars, entertainment venues either closed or restricted.  Incoming tourists subjected to being tested before flying, must have approved vaccines, and tested again upon arrival plus put in quarantine until the test shows as negative. 

Then match that logic with sponsoring a music festivals drawing thousands of people.  Either social gathering is a problem or it is not.  Certainly I would sooner think my odds of contracting covid are significantly less at an open air restaurant or pub with only a small group of people.

In terms of vaccination rates I view that just as spurious as saying that Sweden's higher rate of covid infection is due solely to its lax measures.  You have neighboring countries such as Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia all with high rates of covid infection yet full EU protocols.  Vaccination rates in Washington DC are no higher than neighboring New Jersey, or New York and those two states have higher incidences of covid,  Moving north neighboring Maine and New Hampshire have near identical rates of covid vaccine coverage yet they have much lower covid infection rates than New York or New Jersey. 

It seems every time you try and isolate some causal factor that differentiates one region from another you find numerous exceptions to it.  Thailand is no different.  Within various provinces you have near identical rates of covid vaccine coverage and yet adjoining provinces have markedly different covid rates of infection. 

I do agree that covid goes in waves.  And the mysteries of why regions Germany have bordering countries such as the Netherlands and Belgium with extremely high rates, Poland with a high rate and equally close Denmark with a low rate.   It isn't population density, Washington DC proves its not population density, Florida's low rate goes against the theory of age, 

But the original post was about government hypocrisy where bars and restaurants are crippled in the name of covid prevention while the same government condones an event drawing thousands together. 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Longwood50 said:

The point was that Thailand was and still is instituting draconian measures to stem social gathering.  Public restaurants, bars, entertainment venues either closed or restricted.  Incoming tourists subjected to being tested before flying, must have approved vaccines, and tested again upon arrival plus put in quarantine until the test shows as negative. 

Then match that logic with sponsoring a music festivals drawing thousands of people.  Either social gathering is a problem or it is not.  Certainly I would sooner think my odds of contracting covid are significantly less at an open air restaurant or pub with only a small group of people.

In terms of vaccination rates I view that just as spurious as saying that Sweden's higher rate of covid infection is due solely to its lax measures.  You have neighboring countries such as Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia all with high rates of covid infection yet full EU protocols.  Vaccination rates in Washington DC are no higher than neighboring New Jersey, or New York and those two states have higher incidences of covid,  Moving north neighboring Maine and New Hampshire have near identical rates of covid vaccine coverage yet they have much lower covid infection rates than New York or New Jersey. 

It seems every time you try and isolate some causal factor that differentiates one region from another you find numerous exceptions to it.  Thailand is no different.  Within various provinces you have near identical rates of covid vaccine coverage and yet adjoining provinces have markedly different covid rates of infection. 

I do agree that covid goes in waves.  And the mysteries of why regions Germany have bordering countries such as the Netherlands and Belgium with extremely high rates, Poland with a high rate and equally close Denmark with a low rate.   It isn't population density, Washington DC proves its not population density, Florida's low rate goes against the theory of age, 

But the original post was about government hypocrisy where bars and restaurants are crippled in the name of covid prevention while the same government condones an event drawing thousands together. 

Why are you comparing the Baltic States to Sweden? They don't border Sweden. For what it's worth, they're closer to Finland. But I guess it wouldn't help your case to compare them to Finland, would it? But they do border countries with low vaccination rates and high mortality rates from covid like Russia, Belarus, and Poland.

What are "full EU protocols"?

Poland has a high mortality rate because it has a very low vaccination rate.

Denmark has a low mortality rate because it has a high vaccination rate.

 

 

As for that nonsense about vaccination rates being immaterial.

Trump counties' had over 3 times more COVID deaths than 'Biden counties' in October, according to a new report

People are now dying from COVID-19 at a rate 3 times higher in counties where former President Donald Trump won at least 60% of the vote than in counties where President Joe Biden won a similar percentage, according to a New York Times analysis of the data.

And that partisan gap — which didn't emerge until the widespread availability of vaccines in the spring of 2021 — has consistently widened over the last 5 months...

A late October poll by the Kaiser Family Foundation's COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor found that 39% of Republican adults remain unvaccinated, while just 10% of Democratic adults said the same thing.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-biden-counties-covid-death-rate-3-times-higher-vaccines-2021-11

Edited November 11, 2021 by placeholder

[Scott]

Whether you think vaccinations are spurious or not, they are one of the very few tools available to slow and eventually stop the pandemic.   There are some good sources on the increases in the Baltic countries.   We are going to go in an endless circle if comparisons are going to made to various states in the US and then off to Europe's surge.  

 

You brought up the upper Midwestern states versus Washington, DC.  I answered.  You then deflected off to New Jersey,  New York, Maine and New Hampshire.  Now we are off to the Baltic.  

 

I am not sure that has much to do with the situation at hand.  At some point, Thailand will have to start opening up.  They decided on ONE music festival.  The decision to open restaurants and bars will involve thousands of places and many thousands of people.  

 

The question I have is will they actively trace new infections that arise from the festival?

 

[Longwood50]

14 hours ago, placeholder said:

Why are you comparing the Baltic States to Sweden?

Oh so because they are called Baltic instead of Scandinavian that is an important differentiation in the transmittal of Covid?  Talin Estonia is 82 Kilometers from Helsinki Finland.  Estonia followed the same EU protocols as Finalnd but has a rate of covid infection almost identical to Sweden that did nothing. 

Is the fact that the German areas of of Saarland and Rhineland-Palatinate are called "states" while Luxemburg is called a Dutchy the causal factor in why the rate in Luxemburg is 131,395 per million while Germany's who share a 138KM with Luxemburg has only a rate of 58,538.  

This nonsense of can only compare Sweden to other "Scandinavian" countries has no more credence than you can't compare Vermont with a rate of 69,746 per million versus bordering New York at 138,197 because Vermont is considered a " New England Region" while New York is a "North East Region" Population density?  Nope the highest covid rates per million in the USA include North Dakota, South Dakota, Utah, and Alaska.  Tourism brings Covid?  Nope, Hawaii has the most tourists as a percent of its population and has the lowest rate of Covid of all the 50 states.   Age?  Nope Florida has the highest rate of retirees with 20.5% of its population retired yet it is currently the lowest rate of Covid infections of all 50 states.  Ethnicity and Weight.  Nope.  Washington DC has 43.9% of its population as black, and 49.6% of blacks in the USA are considered to be obese.  Yet Washington DC has the 5th lowest Covid infection rate in the USA and is the urban area with 11,686 people per square mile with the next highest being Maryland at 624 people per square mile. 

All we know for certain is that Sweden did little to nothing in the way of mask mandates, quarantines, shutting down restaurants, entertainment venues, curfews, etc. and the rate of covid infection in Sweden is lower than other countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxemburg.  Those countries are geographically close to Germany which has one of the lowest rates of Covid infection in the EU.  

The evidence would seem to not be very conclusive that the imposition of identical covid protocols yielded identical results, nor that the absence of those protocols resulted in a demonstrable increase in covid infections.  If the lack of masks, quarantines etc was so irresponsible Sweden's rate of infection should be the highest in the EU it is not.  Out of 28 EU members 27 followed the EU restrictive measures only Sweden did not.  There are 10 countries with higher covid infection rates per million than Sweden.  The premise that not following the mask and quarantine measures is the reason that Sweden has a higher rate of covid than Norway, Denmark, and Finland is no more valid that the reason that Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland. and France have higher rates of infection than bordering Germany because the Germans drink more Beck's beer than those other countries. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries



 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Oh so because they are called Baltic instead of Scandinavian that is an important differentiation in the transmittal of Covid?  Talin Estonia is 82 Kilometers from Helsinki Finland.  Estonia followed the same EU protocols as Finalnd but has a rate of covid infection almost identical to Sweden that did nothing. 

Is the fact that the German areas of of Saarland and Rhineland-Palatinate are called "states" while Luxemburg is called a Dutchy the causal factor in why the rate in Luxemburg is 131,395 per million while Germany's who share a 138KM with Luxemburg has only a rate of 58,538.  

This nonsense of can only compare Sweden to other "Scandinavian" countries has no more credence than you can't compare Vermont with a rate of 69,746 per million versus bordering New York at 138,197 because Vermont is considered a " New England Region" while New York is a "North East Region" Population density?  Nope the highest covid rates per million in the USA include North Dakota, South Dakota, Utah, and Alaska.  Tourism brings Covid?  Nope, Hawaii has the most tourists as a percent of its population and has the lowest rate of Covid of all the 50 states.   Age?  Nope Florida has the highest rate of retirees with 20.5% of its population retired yet it is currently the lowest rate of Covid infections of all 50 states.  Ethnicity and Weight.  Nope.  Washington DC has 43.9% of its population as black, and 49.6% of blacks in the USA are considered to be obese.  Yet Washington DC has the 5th lowest Covid infection rate in the USA and is the urban area with 11,686 people per square mile with the next highest being Maryland at 624 people per square mile. 

All we know for certain is that Sweden did little to nothing in the way of mask mandates, quarantines, shutting down restaurants, entertainment venues, curfews, etc. and the rate of covid infection in Sweden is lower than other countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxemburg.  Those countries are geographically close to Germany which has one of the lowest rates of Covid infection in the EU.  

The evidence would seem to not be very conclusive that the imposition of identical covid protocols yielded identical results, nor that the absence of those protocols resulted in a demonstrable increase in covid infections.  If the lack of masks, quarantines etc was so irresponsible Sweden's rate of infection should be the highest in the EU it is not.  Out of 28 EU members 27 followed the EU restrictive measures only Sweden did not.  There are 10 countries with higher covid infection rates per million than Sweden.  The premise that not following the mask and quarantine measures is the reason that Sweden has a higher rate of covid than Norway, Denmark, and Finland is no more valid that the reason that Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland. and France have higher rates of infection than bordering Germany because the Germans drink more Beck's beer than those other countries. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries



 

First off, it's obvous that you are evading the issue of vaccinations. Overwhelmingly what corresponds to death rates is vaccination levels. Why do you repeatedly avoid addressing this issue.

 

It's known why Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania had a sharp increase in rates. They decided to launch a mini schengen zone where citizens from the 3 countries could travel freely to each others countries. Then Delta came along.

 

Your rant about Scandinavia is pure nonsense. Why not compare Sweden to Singapore? Or Togo? Or Thailand? The answer is simple and blazingly obvious. You compare it to the countries that it's most similar to in order to tease out what effect the differences have on the results. . Sweden, Norway, and Finland are very similar nations. Similar climate, similar lifestyles, similar incomes, similar social services, similar population distribution. Even the Swedes admit their rejection of social distancing and masking had disastrous results. Maybe you should take up your argument with them?

 

As for German states compared to Luxembourg. What you don't note is that Luxembourg's population is concentrated in the south center of the nation close to Belgium and France. Ya think maybe population density has something to do with Covid rates of transmission? What are the rates of the areas of Luxembourg bordering on Germany as compared to the regions of Germany that they border on?

 

As for Germany, it's now rapidly catching up to France. As the German health authorities acknowledge, in Germany it's a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Particularly in the east of Germany where mistrust of govt. runs high and right wing political parties have found their greatest success. The state with the lowest vaccination rate, Saxony, has the highest rate of covid mortality.

Germany’s Fourth Covid Wave: ‘A Pandemic of the Unvaccinated’
Germany once set an example for how to manage the coronavirus. Now, deep pockets of vaccine resistance are helping drive daily infections to new heights.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/11/world/europe/germany-covid-unvaccinated.html

 

And your claim that 27 jof 28 EU nations followed stricter protocols than Sweden is utterly false. Eastern and Central European nations were lax. But most importantly, the EU nations that trail Sweden are mostly those with a very low rate of vaccinations. 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/sweden

 

And I'm not going to go into your misrepresentation of the situation in America. But I will note that it characterizes the history of covid by the present situation. Do you think that what happened a month or 2 ago has now entered the realm of legend and is no longer valid for analysis.  Not so long ago, for example, Florida had the highest mortality rate from Covid. Hawaii used to have a very high rate of infection. (Now, to enter Hawaii a tourist must present proof of vaccination and a negative PCR test. So exactly why did you bring up the issue of tourists and Miami?) If you want to get a more accurate picture of the situation in the Sates, look at how the varying states have fared since vaccinations became available. You'll find that there is an inverse correlation between vaccination rates and mortality rates. Why is it that you repeatedly dodge the issue of vaccinations?

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by placeholder

[chessman]

On 11/11/2021 at 5:31 PM, Longwood50 said:

Florida which has probably the most lax rules on covid protocols has recently posted the lowest rate of new infections and that is despite having a very elderly population.  

You’re misinformed here. Florida changed the way that it counted positive tests so they’re counted from the day of the test, not the day of the positive result. Presumably they did this so people are fooled (like you seem to be) when they look at the daily figures. 

 

Fine to disagree with Thailand’s Covid measures but anybody who doesn’t see the logic in them is either grandstanding or just dumb.

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, chessman said:

You’re misinformed here. Florida changed the way that it counted positive tests so they’re counted from the day of the test, not the day of the positive result. Presumably they did this so people are fooled (like you seem to be) when they look at the daily figures. 

 

Fine to disagree with Thailand’s Covid measures but anybody who doesn’t see the logic in them is either grandstanding or just dumb.

Actually, what's going on is that Florida used to include reports of deaths they day the state agency received them. Sometimes it can take weeks for the report to get there. Now the data is posted for the day the death occurred. The effect of this is to make current deaths seem a lot lower than they eventually turn out to be.

Anyway, this thing is, people who cite Florida as some sort of a success story, seem to live in a kind of state of amnesia. What happened a month or 2 ago has no relevance for them. Here's what Florida's daly death count looks like over the past year and a half more or less

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/florida-covid-cases.html

 

Here's another way to look at its recent history.  A list of states organized by death rates. You'll see that most of the states with the highest rates are either red or lean red. And Florida is still #14 despite its low cases. Not long ago it was vying for first place with states like Mississippi and Alabama. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

 

[Boedog]

The question went to far it should have just said "Is their any logic to the Government"

[ronster]

If you are looking for logic then you are in the wrong country !

It doesn’t exist here in any form as they are all too smart to need it .

Don’t try bring farang witchcraft like logic here . ????

[Jen65]

I just read the latest news by the Ministry of Public Health :_

Quote: Ministry of Public Health is planning to provide a fourth booster shot of Covid-19 vaccines for eligible Thai citizens in 2022 following the gradual arrival of more vaccines, according to Minister Anutin Charnvirakul.  Unquote 

This again smacks of discrimination against foreigners who live here .   We all know the efficacy of current vaccines diminishes with time and the current approach is to get a 3rd booster some 6 months after the the first double jab .   The UK is actively persuing this policy now .   I wrote a post on here asking if there was any information on what/where/when one might obtain a 3rd Pfizer booster shot ( or even any other mRNA vaccine - NOT sinovac or sinopharm ).     No replies to date .

One has to beg the question "  is the government / ministry of public health even remotely interested in or even considered the 3rd booster for expats /foreigners whom are residing here "  .    Seems NOT !       

[chilly07]

On 11/11/2021 at 12:04 PM, grain said:

Yep, it's looking that way, should have let it rip and we'd more than likely be out of it now. 

I'm sure the 250m who have suffered from the virus worldwide and especially the 5m who have died would - if they could - disagree!¹

[Longwood50]

17 hours ago, placeholder said:

First off, it's obvous that you are evading the issue of vaccinations. Overwhelmingly what corresponds to death rates is vaccination levels. Why do you repeatedly avoid addressing this issue.

No you are obviously trying to deflect.  Explain to me why the Netherlands and Belgium which border Germany have significantly higher covid infection rates. 

The reality is that Sweden did the least in terms of covid protocols and its rate of infection is not markedly different than the majority of countries in the EU.  

Yes it is higher than Denmark, Norway and Finland but that is 'cherry picking"  

There is no more validity to the extrapolation that the lack of mask protocols in Sweden is the "reason" for them to be higher than it is valid to "assume" that because Stella Artois is the most popular beer in Belgium while the Germans drink Becks proves that Becks provides superior covid protection. 

[Longwood50]

14 hours ago, chessman said:

You’re misinformed here. Florida changed the way that it counted positive tests so they’re counted from the day of the test, not the day of the positive result

https://www.flgov.com/2021/10/27/florida-reaches-lowest-case-rate-in-the-nation/

 

 

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

No you are obviously trying to deflect.  Explain to me why the Netherlands and Belgium which border Germany have significantly higher covid infection rates. 

The reality is that Sweden did the least in terms of covid protocols and its rate of infection is not markedly different than the majority of countries in the EU.  

Yes it is higher than Denmark, Norway and Finland but that is 'cherry picking"  

There is no more validity to the extrapolation that the lack of mask protocols in Sweden is the "reason" for them to be higher than it is valid to "assume" that because Stella Artois is the most popular beer in Belgium while the Germans drink Becks proves that Becks provides superior covid protection. 

And still you avoid the issue that vaccination  rates are the obvious factor that determines hospitalization and mortality rates.even though the correlation is overwhelmingly obvious

 

You think maybe that the high population density of the Netherlands and Belgium might have something to do with it?

 

As for comparing Sweden to Norway and Finland, what don't you understand about the fact that epidemiologists compare countries that are most similar to elucidate what the factors are that account for the differences. According to your way of thinking it would make such as much sense to compare Sweden's performance to that of Thailand or South Africa. By your criteria you yourself are engaged in "cherry picking" by choosing to compare Sweden only two European countries.

 

[Tony125]

On 11/11/2021 at 5:13 PM, Longwood50 said:

So let me understand.  If you have a restaurant or bar that is outside with lets say 50 patrons but serving alcohol that is more dangerous than a music festival with thousands gathered together.  And, that those gathered to listen to a music festival will observe an appropriate level of social distancing but those sitting at tables 3 meters apart wont

Right ! As the music gatherers will be wearing masks  while the drinkers will be sitting at tables or bar counter no masks talking/yelling, shouting  and spreading droplets all over the bar.

[Longwood50]

17 hours ago, placeholder said:

As for German states compared to Luxembourg. What you don't note is that Luxembourg's population is concentrated in the south center of the nation close to Belgium and France.

Bull <deleted>.

If it as you theorize that it is "population density" then why is Sweden's different rate of infection attributed to "concentrated urban areas"  It's top 10 cities all have more than 100,000 people compared to much smaller urban areas in Finland, Denmark, and Norway.

If it is population density, then explain why in the USA that the states with the highest rates of covid infection are North Dakota and Alaska.  North Dakota has 48 people per sq mile, while Alaska only 1 person per square mile.  Washing DC with the highest density at 11,011 per square mile, and Maryland with 618 per square mile have the lowest rates of covid infection.  Or do your theories about population density only apply to Germanic countries and not US states. 


 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

Bull <deleted>.

If it as you theorize that it is "population density" then why is Sweden's different rate of infection attributed to "concentrated urban areas"  It's top 10 cities all have more than 100,000 people compared to much smaller urban areas in Finland, Denmark, and Norway.

If it is population density, then explain why in the USA that the states with the highest rates of covid infection are North Dakota and Alaska.  North Dakota has 48 people per sq mile, while Alaska only 1 person per square mile.  Washing DC with the highest density at 11,011 per square mile, and Maryland with 618 per square mile have the lowest rates of covid infection.  Or do your theories about population density only apply to Germanic countries and not US states. 


 

Over and over again I have stressed that the chief factor is vaccination rate. And yet you repeatedly ignore that. Clearly, you have no good justification for that which is why you repeatedly ignore it. Why not try, for once, just for a change, as a lark, to look at the correlation in the USA between vaccination rates and covid mortality rates. 

 

And then look at what kind of behavioral protocols were enforced ( or in the case of states like Florida, prohibited) in various states and see how that correlates.

 

As for the populations of individual cities in the Scandinavian nations, you didn't note that Norway, Finland and Denmark have about half the population of Sweden. And doe it really matter if an urban center has 1 million or half a million? The point is that these are concentrated populations Also, Denmark is far more densely populated than the other 3 scandinavian nations. Yet it managed to easily outperform Sweden.

 

[Thingamabob]

Logic has not been a feature of most governments covid responses around the world, not only in Thailand. Latest example is Austria who have just introduced the most restrictive legislation since the Nazis took over in 1938.

[PETERTHEEATER]

Who cares BRITTANY'S FREE! ???? I feel like all my birthdays have come at once.......????

[arithai12]

Just a comment about comparing a country with another in terms of infections, deaths, ... we cannot.

Every country has its own standards on how many tests, what kinds, how they are carried out, etc.

Even deaths are counted differently: "with" or "of" covid , sometimes even "without" because the doctors were busy with covid patients. Not to mention the demographics, frankly a 90y old should not be counted the same as a 40y old. And of course the opposite extreme, countries in which covid patients die at home without being reported.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by arithai12

[Longwood50]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

As for the populations of individual cities in the Scandinavian nations, you didn't note that Norway, Finland and Denmark have about half the population of Swede

Do you ever make a cohesive statement.  You argued that the reason that Luxemburg had a higher covid infection rate was "concentration" of people.  Guess what, that is exactly what urban centers are, a concentration of people.  Given that Sweden has more and larger concentrations of people hence using your logic they should have a higher covid infection rate.  

Conversely I point out that the states in the USA with some of the highest concentrations of people such as Washington DC and Maryland have low covid infection rates versus Alaska with only 1 person per square mile has a high covid infection rate which pretty well debunks your population density thought process. 

As to your shift to "vaccination rates"  Belgium's vaccination rate is notably higher than neighboring Germany but Belgium's covid infection rate is double Germany.  Care to make another off the wall wild A** assumption to justify your cockamamy assertion as to why Sweden's rate of Covid is not markedly is no markedly higher than most of Europe.  

We don't know why Finlands, Norways, and Denmarks rate is markedly lower.  Nor do we know why Belgiums, the Netherlands, Luxenburg and Polands rates are all markedly higher than Germany.  Just as we don't know why Estonia only 82 KM from Finland has a much higher covid rate.  

But one thing for sure is it isn't about masks, quarantines, curfews, no alcohol, closed pubs, etc.  If those were truly effective, Sweden's would be the worst covid rate and neighboring countries with "identical" covid protocols would have identical results.  THEY  DONT