Pattaya to get huge new beachside development

[Peabody]

Not directly related, but there appears to be a huge chunk of empty land running from Beach Rd to 2nd Rd just adjacent to View Talay 6. Anybody got a whiff of what might be coming for that prime plot?

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Peabody said:

Not directly related, but there appears to be a huge chunk of empty land running from Beach Rd to 2nd Rd just adjacent to View Talay 6. Anybody got a whiff of what might be coming for that prime plot?

If it is the one I am thinking of it has been there a long long time..... somebody does not want to sell. 

[kinyara]

22 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Enjoy the traffic jams then. Perhaps they'll revive the monorail 5555555555555555555555555

Here's the secret, for those living here it's a bit like knowing not to turn up at immigration at opening time after a public holiday. Big event, public holiday, weekend - shock horror look at the traffic jam :))

[newnative]

1 hour ago, Peabody said:

Not directly related, but there appears to be a huge chunk of empty land running from Beach Rd to 2nd Rd just adjacent to View Talay 6. Anybody got a whiff of what might be coming for that prime plot?

     The land was supposed to be developed a few years ago as, if I remember correctly, a 2 building high rise project.  I can't remember if it was going to be a hotel, condos, or both.  My best guess was a hotel.  I think a bit of land work was started but then it all stopped.  Welcome corrections if my memory is faulty.

[JensenZ]

On 11/27/2021 at 6:57 AM, Destiny1990 said:

These investors really figured it out : A New Pattaya Mall. ????

This is how you get tourists. Better places to stay, better shopping malls. It's progress.  

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, kinyara said:

Here's the secret, for those living here it's a bit like knowing not to turn up at immigration at opening time after a public holiday. Big event, public holiday, weekend - shock horror look at the traffic jam :))

LOL. I stayed at the Lek before corona and i used to observe the traffic jams from my window. Nothing to do with big events- just too much traffic for the size of the road. Sooooo, if putting dozens of trucks down the road during construction, and hundreds of cars going to the new project after, what do you think will happen- more or less traffic jams?

[newnative]

5 hours ago, JensenZ said:

This is how you get tourists. Better places to stay, better shopping malls. It's progress.  

And, in this case, it's much more than a shopping mall.

[redwood1]

8 minutes ago, newnative said:

And, in this case, it's much more than a shopping mall.

There are loads of malls in the world,must be at least 100 in Bangkok.....

People will go there a few times and go WoW and then it will not be a new mall anymore...Same happened at Terminal 21 and Central festival.....

 

No amount of bells and whistles will change this.............

 

As long as there are travel restrictions Pattaya will never need a new mall...... 

[jacko45k]

7 hours ago, kinyara said:

Here's the secret, for those living here it's a bit like knowing not to turn up at immigration at opening time after a public holiday. Big event, public holiday, weekend - shock horror look at the traffic jam :))

There was a lot of traffic even around Buakhao yesterday.....but  not bad this AM... I am expecting them to pour in for the music in Pattaya, well Naklua I believe, plus it is a long holiday weekend. Monday everything is shut....

[newnative]

2 hours ago, redwood1 said:

There are loads of malls in the world,must be at least 100 in Bangkok.....

People will go there a few times and go WoW and then it will not be a new mall anymore...Same happened at Terminal 21 and Central festival.....

 

No amount of bells and whistles will change this.............

 

As long as there are travel restrictions Pattaya will never need a new mall...... 

   As I keep saying, it's not a mall.  It's 5 hotels, a convention center, Legoland, an amusement park, an aquarium, a wellness and health center, and likely several other things I've forgotten.  

[JensenZ]

3 hours ago, redwood1 said:

There are loads of malls in the world,must be at least 100 in Bangkok.....

People will go there a few times and go WoW and then it will not be a new mall anymore...Same happened at Terminal 21 and Central festival.....

 

No amount of bells and whistles will change this.............

 

As long as there are travel restrictions Pattaya will never need a new mall...... 

Obviously a project of this size will take many years to complete, so hopefully if and when it is completed, there will once again be a healthy tourist industry. We can hope. I have my doubts the project will go ahead.

 

Why would people go to a mall a few times? Malls have special value in hot tropical climates. They are an oasis where people can relax in a cool air conditioned environment. Tourists love this too after they have been roasting in the hot tropical sun.

Edited December 3, 2021 by JensenZ

[kinyara]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. I stayed at the Lek before corona and i used to observe the traffic jams from my window. Nothing to do with big events- just too much traffic for the size of the road. Sooooo, if putting dozens of trucks down the road during construction, and hundreds of cars going to the new project after, what do you think will happen- more or less traffic jams?

My well developed theory honed over the last 2 decades is that any traffic jams in Central Pattaya are the result of a cunning plan put in place by City Hall to dig up key sections of road at the worst possible time to give the appearance the place is constantly busy and overrun with tourist traffic. As soon as the tourists were welcomed back on November 1st the diggers appeared like magic at the baht bus stand at the South Pattaya junction eliminating one traffic lane for the foreseeable future to and from Jomtien. Key bottleneck introduced :)).  

 

 

[JensenZ]

12 hours ago, Peabody said:

Not directly related, but there appears to be a huge chunk of empty land running from Beach Rd to 2nd Rd just adjacent to View Talay 6. Anybody got a whiff of what might be coming for that prime plot?

I think that's been a vacant lot for as long as I've been here (2005). I noticed they have planted banana trees on it recently. If land is not developed, they have to pay a special tax (based on land value), so the bill on that property would be huge. I think that's why the banana trees are there.

[champers]

1 hour ago, JensenZ said:

I think that's been a vacant lot for as long as I've been here (2005). I noticed they have planted banana trees on it recently. If land is not developed, they have to pay a special tax (based on land value), so the bill on that property would be huge. I think that's why the banana trees are there.

... Suggesting there are no immediate plans to develop the land.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, newnative said:

   As I keep saying, it's not a mall.  It's 5 hotels, a convention center, Legoland, an amusement park, an aquarium, a wellness and health center, and likely several other things I've forgotten.  

and people will come from all over the world just to stay there, LOL!

 

That might work if Pattaya had more than a reputation for naughty nightlife, but it has little else worth visiting for. Better islands than Larn elsewhere. Temple of Truth, Bottle museum and Little Siam ( forget about the beach- so bad it's irrelevant )- somehow I don't think they are enough to draw the masses, though if a casino is included in the plans, that would be a game changer.

Of course I'm not referencing the Chinese demographic, but would they stay there anyway?

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, JensenZ said:

Obviously a project of this size will take many years to complete, so hopefully if and when it is completed, there will once again be a healthy tourist industry. We can hope. I have my doubts the project will go ahead.

 

Why would people go to a mall a few times? Malls have special value in hot tropical climates. They are an oasis where people can relax in a cool air conditioned environment. Tourists love this too after they have been roasting in the hot tropical sun.

I don't disagree about malls being a place to hang out in the cool, but how many malls are needed for that? Pattaya is overcrowded with malls.

More to the point, how many malls can Pattaya sustain, as the population isn't large enough, IMO, to sustain the existing ones?

[HAPPYNUFF]

Only 5 hotels, plus  a shopping mall and others,,,   oh good, just pump all that effluent  into that  pristine water  out the front, because the sewerage system  isnt working, that will please all those tourists.

[newnative]

46 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and people will come from all over the world just to stay there, LOL!

 

That might work if Pattaya had more than a reputation for naughty nightlife, but it has little else worth visiting for. Better islands than Larn elsewhere. Temple of Truth, Bottle museum and Little Siam ( forget about the beach- so bad it's irrelevant )- somehow I don't think they are enough to draw the masses, though if a casino is included in the plans, that would be a game changer.

Of course I'm not referencing the Chinese demographic, but would they stay there anyway?

      I guess we will see.  Pattaya has many more attractions than the 3 you mentioned, by the way, and the beach is no longer 'so bad it's irrelevant'.  It's been widened and is being kept clean.  Yes, parts of it erode in heavy rains--but the city is out the next day and it's back in order quickly.  Jomtien Beach is now being widened and it is looking very good at the southern end where they have started.  My partner and I were very impressed the other day when we saw it as that area had very little beach left.  Improvements continue around town, including the massive new parking garage, a partnership between the city and Terminal 21, that is about to open.  

      I know your narrative has been that, except for the nightlife, Pattaya is not worth visiting but, pre-covid, it was in Mastercard's top 20 cities visited in the World.  People were choosing Pattaya in large numbers.  And, yes, Chinese and other Asian visitors were staying at the nice hotels.  They will likely be the majority visitors at Aquatique, as well.   

    My main point remains that every nice, new attraction that is built contributes to the synergy of the city and each one makes Pattaya a more desirable place to visit.  And, not just for international tourists but domestic visitors, as well.  They were and still are coming in significant numbers on weekends and holidays. 

[thaibeachlovers]

10 minutes ago, newnative said:

      I guess we will see.  Pattaya has many more attractions than the 3 you mentioned, by the way, and the beach is no longer 'so bad it's irrelevant'.  It's been widened and is being kept clean.  Yes, parts of it erode in heavy rains--but the city is out the next day and it's back in order quickly.  Jomtien Beach is now being widened and it is looking very good at the southern end where they have started.  My partner and I were very impressed the other day when we saw it as that area had very little beach left.  Improvements continue around town, including the massive new parking garage, a partnership between the city and Terminal 21, that is about to open.  

      I know your narrative has been that, except for the nightlife, Pattaya is not worth visiting but, pre-covid, it was in Mastercard's top 20 cities visited in the World.  People were choosing Pattaya in large numbers.  And, yes, Chinese and other Asian visitors were staying at the nice hotels.  They will likely be the majority visitors at Aquatique, as well.   

    My main point remains that every nice, new attraction that is built contributes to the synergy of the city and each one makes Pattaya a more desirable place to visit.  And, not just for international tourists but domestic visitors, as well.  They were and still are coming in significant numbers on weekends and holidays. 

I'm well aware that local tourists were visiting Pattaya on weekends, but how much did they contribute to the economy? They weren't exactly filling the gogos.

If indeed, Pattaya has many more attractions than the 3 I mentioned, what are they? Golf has always been an attraction, but will international visitors flock to Pattaya for golf? The rest can easily be visited on day tours from Bkk. No need to actually stay in Pattaya.

 

Anyway, the success of such a venture depends on what happens after corona becomes just another inconvenience for most ( like the flu ), and I don't think anyone knows what the reality will be.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

 

[newnative]

40 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm well aware that local tourists were visiting Pattaya on weekends, but how much did they contribute to the economy? They weren't exactly filling the gogos.

If indeed, Pattaya has many more attractions than the 3 I mentioned, what are they? Golf has always been an attraction, but will international visitors flock to Pattaya for golf? The rest can easily be visited on day tours from Bkk. No need to actually stay in Pattaya.

 

Anyway, the success of such a venture depends on what happens after corona becomes just another inconvenience for most ( like the flu ), and I don't think anyone knows what the reality will be.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

 

      Always, always, it comes back to 'filling the gogos'.  Time to get over it.  That ship has sailed.  Wave goodbye.   Filling the gogos, or not filling them, is no longer the only gauge, if it ever was,  of whether Pattaya is a popular tourist destination.  Don't get me wrong, that type of entertainment will likely remain an important component of Pattaya and it will likely always attract important numbers of visitors but it is no longer the main component, and hasn't been for some time.

     The shift has been to large numbers of regular tourists, primarily Asian--the ones who made things like Terminal 21 and all the nice, new large hotels viable.  And, new attractions like the two large water parks and D'Luck Theater.  What has also shifted is the area of new development--it's mostly all from Central Festival north to Dolphin Circle--not close to Walking Street.  Being next to Walking Street is not seen as a plus for the new tourists being catered to.  

     Do domestic visitors to Pattaya contribute much to the economy, you ask?  Yes.  Duh.  Just like anywhere else in the World.  Pattaya would most definitely be in much worse shape right now without them.   As for the attractions, Google is your friend.  You'll find a number of sites, listing anywhere from '12 best' to '55 places to visit in Pattaya'.  In any case, more than 3.  

     

[OneZero]

Reference the recent Thai government talk of a shift to seeking "High quality tourists" (not here solely for the beer & the women) but without the requisite factors in place to make Thailand an irresistible attraction (immigration & covid requirement hassles, scams, etc).  

 

Perhaps Thai & Pattaya hierarchy, and those funding huge infrastructure investments smell a Casino in the works. 

 

Reference article in today's newspaper Thai legislators to once again consider it.

[Leaver]

On 11/28/2021 at 10:18 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't think The Avenue can be used as an example of anything except a very bad idea.

 

Can you name a few "good ideas" that have been successful here?

[Leaver]

On 11/29/2021 at 10:38 AM, newnative said:

That big mall I mentioned, Tysons Corner Center?  Not only was it one of the biggest, it also had, when I lived there, one of the top sales per square foot.  But, even that mall had occasional closed stores. 

 

What possible relevance has a mall in the USA got with what is happening in Pattaya?

 

In any case, I'll use your example.  Say a mall twice the size as Tyson's opened up only a few hundred meters down the road.  What happens to the money that was invested in Tyson's?  

 

You only see the structure, the building, the bricks and mortar.  I see the money that paid for the structure, the building, and the bricks and mortar, and just like many other businesses and investments, supply and demand effects the value of property, and the investment in that property.  Think, Return On Investment.  

 

My point on this thread has always been that whilst this development may be a success, and profitable, thus a good investment, it comes at the cost of those who have lost money by investing in Central and T21, for example.

 

I accept your argument that investors accept the risk, but say 6 months after this development is built a new development starts just down the road that is twice the size, and includes a casino.  This development, that you say is a good investment. would then take a huge hit, would it not?

 

Now, the question is,   what is stopping that development that is twice the size from being approved? (casino aside)   Nothing, because the town planning laws here, or lack of them, do not take into account sustainability.  

 

This leads to another question, is it better to have two malls with 75% occupancy, or three malls with 50% occupancy, given each mall has the same number of shops, for example?  

 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:38 AM, newnative said:

Seeing some closed spaces at T21 or Festival in 2019 does not automatically translate into a mall not doing well.  Some businesses work, some don't--true in every mall anywhere in the World.

 

There were international chain stores closing.  I'm quite sure there business was already tested, and found to work. 

 

What does that translate into?  Tourist demographics?  High rents?  Either way, closed.

 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:38 AM, newnative said:

I don't know anybody who lost money at The Base; certainly not original buyers, including me. 

 

I believe some of the original builds are still for sale.  Is that true?  If so, how do they hope to sell them, with thousands more on the market, unless at a fire sale.

 

Did you sell yours?  If not, how do you know you haven't lost?  If you did sell, I doubt you would get that price now, and that has nothing to do with covid.  

 

Once again, supply and demand, and Pattaya keeps going with its oversupply of EVERYTHING, thus spreading the demand too thin for anything to be a decent investment here.   

 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:38 AM, newnative said:

The much pricier Edge is opening right next door.  Hipflat has The Base at around 108,000 baht per square meter.  Edge is around 173,000 baht per sq. meter.  You probably see the Edge opening as a negative for The Base--more competition.  If I was still an owner I would see it as a big plus--an affirmation that the location is prime, with the added synergy of another nice project going in, just adding to the desirability.  Some buyers might want to pay 173,000 a sqm for the newer Edge.  But, there will also be other buyers who would rather pay less for the same location and get a bigger condo, to boot.  

 

Do you have some comparative sales figures?  If not, these numbers are worthless, just like their advertisements.

 

Don't you see all the extra condo's being built all around your own condo as competing for buyers?

 

I think you are mixing up government investment in infrastructure with private investment in property. 

 

Step outside The Base or The Edge, and you are pretty much still in an urban slum with failing infrastructure.   Watch your step on the sidewalk.  ????  

 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:38 AM, newnative said:

Aquatique, as I said, is mixed-use.  It will certainly have some tourist features--like the zoo

 

So what happens to the other zoo?  

 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:38 AM, newnative said:

You seem to think that adding tourist features in a location will be a negative for someone operating a tourist spot nearby. 

 

No.  I seem to think allowing many of the same tourist features to be built sees most of them struggle, ultimately going broke, and the building sits derelict.  Hardly creating the appearance of a thriving Pattaya economy.

 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:38 AM, newnative said:

In reality, that's not usually how it works. 

 

So, sometimes it doesn't work out.  Is that right?

 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:38 AM, newnative said:

Did Disney World fold when Universal Studios came to Orlando? 

 

Would Disney World fold if, for example, Dina World, which would basically be a copy of Disney World, opened a few hundred meters away?

 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:38 AM, newnative said:

Every new attraction just made Orlando an even more desirable tourist destination, drawing more visitors.  Likely Aquatique will be the same for Pattaya.  That same synergy is on display in the T21 area, by the way.  

 

The USA has a big middle class.  

 

The majority of tourists to Pattaya are cheap Chinese and Russian package holiday makers, and some Indians. 

 

Do you really think their sprinkling of yuan, roubles and rupees, are going to support all these malls here?  

[HashBrownHarry]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm well aware that local tourists were visiting Pattaya on weekends, but how much did they contribute to the economy?

You would be surprised how much BKK tourists weekend spend in Pattaya ( and elsewhere ).

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

What possible relevance has a mall in the USA got with what is happening in Pattaya?

 

In any case, I'll use your example.  Say a mall twice the size as Tyson's opened up only a few hundred meters down the road.  What happens to the money that was invested in Tyson's?  

 

You only see the structure, the building, the bricks and mortar.  I see the money that paid for the structure, the building, and the bricks and mortar, and just like many other businesses and investments, supply and demand effects the value of property, and the investment in that property.  Think, Return On Investment.  

 

My point on this thread has always been that whilst this development may be a success, and profitable, thus a good investment, it comes at the cost of those who have lost money by investing in Central and T21, for example.

 

I accept your argument that investors accept the risk, but say 6 months after this development is built a new development starts just down the road that is twice the size, and includes a casino.  This development, that you say is a good investment. would then take a huge hit, would it not?

 

Now, the question is,   what is stopping that development that is twice the size from being approved? (casino aside)   Nothing, because the town planning laws here, or lack of them, do not take into account sustainability.  

 

This leads to another question, is it better to have two malls with 75% occupancy, or three malls with 50% occupancy, given each mall has the same number of shops, for example?  

 

 

There were international chain stores closing.  I'm quite sure there business was already tested, and found to work. 

 

What does that translate into?  Tourist demographics?  High rents?  Either way, closed.

 

 

I believe some of the original builds are still for sale.  Is that true?  If so, how do they hope to sell them, with thousands more on the market, unless at a fire sale.

 

Did you sell yours?  If not, how do you know you haven't lost?  If you did sell, I doubt you would get that price now, and that has nothing to do with covid.  

 

Once again, supply and demand, and Pattaya keeps going with its oversupply of EVERYTHING, thus spreading the demand too thin for anything to be a decent investment here.   

 

 

Do you have some comparative sales figures?  If not, these numbers are worthless, just like their advertisements.

 

Don't you see all the extra condo's being built all around your own condo as competing for buyers?

 

I think you are mixing up government investment in infrastructure with private investment in property. 

 

Step outside The Base or The Edge, and you are pretty much still in an urban slum with failing infrastructure.   Watch your step on the sidewalk.  ????  

 

 

So what happens to the other zoo?  

 

 

No.  I seem to think allowing many of the same tourist features to be built sees most of them struggle, ultimately going broke, and the building sits derelict.  Hardly creating the appearance of a thriving Pattaya economy.

 

 

So, sometimes it doesn't work out.  Is that right?

 

 

Would Disney World fold if, for example, Dina World, which would basically be a copy of Disney World, opened a few hundred meters away?

 

 

The USA has a big middle class.  

 

The majority of tourists to Pattaya are cheap Chinese and Russian package holiday makers, and some Indians. 

 

Do you really think their sprinkling of yuan, roubles and rupees, are going to support all these malls here?  

You stated Festival wasn't doing well because you saw some closed stores.  I used the Tysons example to explain to you that even an extremely successful mall will sometimes have closed stores.  It's normal.  That was the relevance--as you well knew.

 

Yes, chain stores may have closed at Festival.   Once again, see Tysons example above--absolutely normal, all over the World.   You failed to mention that at the same time a few Festival chains might have been closing, other Festival chains like Uniqlo and H&M, as well as a number of the restaurant chains, opened second stores just down the street at T21.  Some businesses work, some don't.  Again, normal.   

 

Aquatique is not a mall.  So, your remarks regarding 'three malls' aren't relevant.  It won't really be direct competition for either Festival or T21 but, rather, will bring in many more customers for both, and also other area businesses.  It will have a number of things the other two don't have, including a convention center, Legoland, a wellness and health center, an amusement park, an aquarium, residences, etc.   You ask what happens to the 'other zoo'.  I was unaware there is another zoo on Beach Road. 

 

I stand by my remarks on The Base and Edge.   Your comments regarding infrastructure hold no relevance and obviously the state of the infrastructure has not deterred construction of either Edge or the new hotel going up across from Festival.   Or, any of the other numerous new builds around town, a number still going on.

 

You say, 'Don't you see all the extra condos being built around your own condo as competing for buyers?'  What 'extra condos'?  I no longer own there but in that area you have The Base, Edge, and View Talay 6 and that's about it for highrises offering seaviews.  So, what 'extra condos' are being built there that would be seen as 'competing for buyers'?    It's the same in north Pattaya.  Centric Sea, Northshore, and Markland are about it for highrise seaview condos in that area.  The only new highrise residences on the horizon seem to be those proposed for Aquatique, likely some years away.  And, likely to be super expensive.

 

The rest of your remarks, frankly. aren't worth the time to respond to.  Muddled comments on protecting investors. Not my purview, by the way.   Inaccuracies regarding the tourist demographics and far too many 'what ifs'.  What if this, what if that.  What if this giant thing was built.  What if that happens.  'Dina World'?   I'd rather stick to discussing something that's actually been proposed.  And, I remain of the opinion that it will be a positive for Pattaya if it gets built.  

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:38 PM, newnative said:

As for the attractions, Google is your friend.  You'll find a number of sites, listing anywhere from '12 best' to '55 places to visit in Pattaya'.  In any case, more than 3.  

LOL. I've visited pretty much every "attraction" in Pattaya over the years, except golf, for which I have no desires at all. When I visited the bottle museum the proprietor was surprised to see a farang there, as I was the first farang to visit it.

Nong Nooch and Temple of Truth were the best, but I wouldn't visit Thailand because of them.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, newnative said:

And, I remain of the opinion that it will be a positive for Pattaya if it gets built.  

and I will be happy if it doesn't, at least there. I have no problem with it being built down the coast, which is where the real upmarket developments were being built before corona.

The proposed location IMO is just adding to sewage in the bay and traffic jams.

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, HashBrownHarry said:

You would be surprised how much BKK tourists weekend spend in Pattaya ( and elsewhere ).

I wouldn't, but it isn't spent in farang related establishments, just as the millions the Chinese spent were confined to certain establishments and companies.

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, Leaver said:

Step outside The Base or The Edge, and you are pretty much still in an urban slum with failing infrastructure.   Watch your step on the sidewalk.  ????  

Exactly. Any comparison with other countries is irrelevant as they probably have good city paid for infrastructure, while Pattaya public infrastructure is a disgrace, and a danger to any that walk on the pavements ( if one is even able to do so, and might be risking one's life in the road ).

[HashBrownHarry]

30 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I wouldn't, but it isn't spent in farang related establishments, just as the millions the Chinese spent were confined to certain establishments and companies.

To some extent yes however the malls and popular restaurants see both Thai and farng toursists revenue.