ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[sungod]

9 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Bye… until the next time you troll me, which I suspect won’t be very long.

Nothing is to be gained by arguing with fools

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, sungod said:

Nothing is to be gained by arguing with fools

Stick to the rules of this forum, don’t make unsubstantiated claims.

 

Your claim is so wild, it’s patently incorrect, all you have to do is post some data to back it up, but as we know, you can’t because it’s BS

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You can bet your left nut marine insurance companies are watching mixed EV/ICE shipments very closely. As Ian Fleming wrote, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, the third time it is enemy action.

Packing a mix of said vehicles like sardines is looking more and more risky, in the light of videos showing EV fires. It would not surprise me if insurers either hiked their premiums, or refused insurance unless suitable isolation of EV's is adopted.

Either way, that cost gets passed on to the car buyer.

Would it surprise you to know that I agree with you?
 

But I suspect what we have is a short term problem because future battery technology probably won’t be so disastrous when that highly unlikely event occurs ie it catches fire.

[KhunLA]

So now the argument is, don't buy an EV, since you can't charge at home with solar, because the solar panels will catch fire.

 

I await someone to post you can't park EVs in the sun, as they'll catch fire.

 

What silliness next ?

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I await someone to post you can't park EVs in the sun, as they'll catch fire.

 

What silliness next ?

I parked my EV in the sun whilst I charged it from my solar power, and when I returned to it it, it had turned into a giant, fluffy marshmallow, covered in chocolate and sprinkles.

 

The moral of this is only buy an EV and solar power, if you like marshmallows

Edited August 5, 2023 by JBChiangRai

[In the jungle]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I parked my EV in the sun whilst I charged it from my solar power, and when I returned to it it, it had turned into a giant, fluffy marshmallow, covered in chocolate and sprinkles.

 

The moral of this is only buy an EV and solar power, if you like marshmallows

I park my EV in the blast proof bunker 500 metres from the house.

 

A seismic detector lets me know if there is a problem with charging.

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, In the jungle said:

I park my EV in the blast proof bunker 500 metres from the house.

 

A seismic detector lets me know if there is a problem with charging.

Eminently sensible.

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Would it surprise you to know that I agree with you?
 

But I suspect what we have is a short term problem because future battery technology probably won’t be so disastrous when that highly unlikely event occurs ie it catches fire.

Not at all, you can be rational on the odd occasion.

 

There are always improvements to be had in any technology. One I like is a gold-based battery for mobile phones which can handle recharge cycles 100 - 1000 times the recharge capacity of current lithium-based batteries.

[In the jungle]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

Eminently sensible.

Of course I don't have an EV but I think these fire concerns are verging on hysteria.

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I parked my EV in the sun whilst I charged it from my solar power, and when I returned to it it, it had turned into a giant, fluffy marshmallow, covered in chocolate and sprinkles.

 

The moral of this is only by an EV and solar power, if you like marshmallows

I use Banana Boat sunscreen 50+, over the entire car, 30 mins before sun exposure of course.  One must read the instructions.  Reapply after it gets wet of course.  

 

I'm stocked up with a few 1000 tubes, though I did have to refinance the house to buy.  But as a prepper, you can never be too careful.  Who needs milk when you have an EV.  Priorities ????

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

Not at all, you can be rational on the odd occasion.

 

There are always improvements to be had in any technology. One I like is a gold-based battery for mobile phones which can handle recharge cycles 100 - 1000 times the recharge capacity of current lithium-based batteries.

I can see a big problem with that, the batteries are going to get stolen

[Lacessit]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I parked my EV in the sun whilst I charged it from my solar power, and when I returned to it it, it had turned into a giant, fluffy marshmallow, covered in chocolate and sprinkles.

 

The moral of this is only buy an EV and solar power, if you like marshmallows

I did not know the Ford Taurus was available in EV. That car always looked as if it had melted in the sun.

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I can see a big problem with that, the batteries are going to get stolen

I see, mobile phones don't get stolen now.

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I did not know the Ford Taurus was available in EV. That car always looked as if it had melted in the sun.

The Walkie-Talkie building in London has one side of glass that is concave, and it was focusing the sun’s rays onto cars parked on the street below and melting them.

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

I see, mobile phones don't get stolen now.

Not for the batteries anyway, though I need another new battery in mine, only lasted 12 months, official apple battery too.

[Lacessit]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Not for the batteries anyway, though I need another new battery in mine, only lasted 12 months, official apple battery too.

Should last longer than that. My OPPO A37 battery is still working after about 6 years.

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Should last longer than that. My OPPO A37 battery is still working after about 6 years.

IPhone 11, max capacity down to 77%

Fortunately, EV batteries retain their capacity much better.

 

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

IPhone 11, max capacity down to 77%

Fortunately, EV batteries retain their capacity much better.

 

Not on the Nissan Leaf, they don't. That's another Cadogan rant.

[JBChiangRai]

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Not on the Nissan Leaf, they don't. That's another Cadogan rant.

The Nissan leaf had a big problem, it’s batteries are air cooled, not liquid cooled, and in my humble opinion on suitable for hot climates. Maybe they have addressed that, and now they’re liquid cooled, I don’t know.

[BKKBike09]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

It takes an external heat source to get a fire going. It only takes a short circuit for an EV to go into thermal runaway.

OTOH, there are now two shipboard fires where a mix of EV's and ICE's were being transported. The greater intensity of EV fires is undeniable.

On balance of probability, it is almost certain both fires were started by EV's, as the ship's crew could have contained an ICE fire with foam, powder or water. As explained, EV fires supply their own fuel and oxygen.

If I may ....

 

I agree with you in respect of the greater intensity of an EV battery fire compared to an ICE fire. I think it is statistically unlikely to happen, but if it does, it is undeniably very bad news and results in a major blaze, in very short order, that is hard to extinguish.

 

However, I'm not sure why you say "it is almost certain both fires were started by EVs"? If you said "it is almost certain that, once the fire started, regardless of cause, if EVs then combusted, the ensuing blaze would have been intense".

 

As to what started those fires - an electrical short circuit can cause a fire anywhere (just look at how many fires are caused in Thai homes by short circuits). The trend these days is for more and more electronics in cars, whether EV or ICE, so statistically the risk of short circuit likely increases for both. It's also important to note that an EVs low power systems are invariably supplied by a standard 12/24V lead acid battery because it's cheaper - and safer - than some sort of step-down system drawing from a 400 or 800V main cell. The basic electrical system (locks, windows, wipers, ignition etc) is isolated from the main power cell, so a short in the former shouldn't affect the latter. I'm not sure how a main power cell would short if not subjected to some form of damage.

 

Also, do you accept that the risk of thermal runaway - especially leading to spontaneous combustion - is much, much lower with LiFePO4 (FFP) chemistry batteries? If you don't accept this, why?

 

Similarly - and correct me if I am wrong - but your comment "EV fires supply their own fuel and oxygen" relates to older Lithion Ion battery chemistry (which I will agree is still what powers most EVs on the road at the moment), where decomposition of the cobalt oxide or manganese oxide in the cathode is what generates the 'in-house' O2 supply.

 

LFP batteries use lithium iron phosphate as the cathode material - again my understanding 

is that the oxygen component is too tightly bound for combustion even in thermal run-away.

 

[transam]

14 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

MG don’t have their act together on English manuals.  I can get a manual from England, but the software is different.

But MG is British since 1924...................????

[transam]

37 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

IPhone 11, max capacity down to 77%

Fortunately, EV batteries retain their capacity much better.

 

My iPhone 6s Plus is still at 100%......????

[KhunLA]

22 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

If I may ....

 

However, I'm not sure why you say "it is almost certain both fires were started by EVs"? If you said "it is almost certain that, once the fire started, regardless of cause, if EVs then combusted, the ensuing blaze would have been intense".

 

LFP batteries use lithium iron phosphate as the cathode material - again my understanding 

is that the oxygen component is too tightly bound for combustion even in thermal run-away

Cause of both fires ... unknown, but had o EVs ????

LFP ... still await the first real news of 1 fire ????

 

Agree, the facts just don't seem to matter to the anti EV'ers.

Edited August 5, 2023 by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

10 minutes ago, transam said:

My iPhone 6s Plus is still at 100%......????

Maybe I am doing something wrong.

[JBChiangRai]

13 minutes ago, transam said:

But MG is British since 1924...................????

Lol, thank god it’s not!

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Maybe I am doing something wrong.

Oh course his phone will state full charge at 100%, if that's what he's reading instead of capacity.

 

But how long does it last vs when new ?

Edited August 5, 2023 by KhunLA

[transam]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Cause of both fires ... unknown, but had o EVs ????

LFP ... still await the first real news of 1 fire ????

 

Agree, the facts just don't seem to matter to the anti EV'ers.

Blinded by your purchase...????

[transam]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

Lol, thank god it’s not!

MG purchasers believe it.................????

[VocalNeal]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Lol, thank god it’s not!

To paraphrase an old joke. If MG made electric cars no fire would ever start????

[JBChiangRai]

14 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Oh course his phone will state full charge at 100%, if that's what he's reading instead of capacity.

 

But how long does it last vs when new ?

Apple iPhones have the ability to tell you the maximum capacity of the battery, it starts out at 100% but a year later mine is down to 77%. It still charges up to indicated 100%, but it’s 100% of 77%, I trust that is as clear as mud?