16 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What's particularly interesting is the link under table 16 that leads to this:

"Interpretation of data

There is a large risk of misinterpretation of the data presented in this section due to the complexities of vaccination data. A blog post by the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA), formerly Public Health England (PHE), provides a comprehensive explanation of the biases and potential areas for misinterpretation of such data. They state that a simple comparison of COVID-19 case rates in those who are vaccinated and unvaccinated should not be used to assess how effective a vaccine is in preventing serious health outcomes, because there are a number of differences between the groups, other than the vaccine itself, and these biases mean that you cannot use the rates to determine how well the vaccines work."

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

The problem here is that when the hard right see such warnings it's a signal to deliberately misinterpret these statistics as talking points, knowing that many of their constituents won't analyse the source data with a critical mind. I'm not at all confident that those who have cherry picked some statistics and taken them out of context have done so out of a detailed analysis of technical data. Rather, they have seen these misinterpretations published by pseudo science websites and dutifully parroted them on forums like this. It is far from an accidental misreading of the data which is why this behaviour is so egregious.

1 hour ago, Airalee said:

Very interesting.  Especially tables 15 and 16.

 

I really wish that I could get extremely granular data on every individual hospitalization and death.  Mostly co-morbidity related, and an included photograph (faces can be blurred to protect their identity) as there have been reports in the past of “perfectly healthy” younger people who died but then it turned out that they were morbidly obese and just hadn’t been diagnosed yet with their pre-existing conditions.

Why? The data is very clear. Get vaccinated and help put this pandemic behind us. Don't spread misinformation. It just makes things worse.

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On 1/29/2022 at 3:28 PM, Ryan754326 said:

The reason I think it’s relevant is because if we’re going to force vaccines on those who don’t want them, then we should also be forcing lifestyle changes on the large part of the population who was responsible for straining our healthcare system before covid came along, and still continues to make up the bulk of those who die of covid, along with all of their other co-morbidities. 
 

It’s the same group of people who were already dying of heart attacks, strokes, and diabetes, who are now dying of covid in the greatest numbers, by far. 
 

The idea that vaccines alone can fix this problem, while people just continue on eating themselves to death, is not realistic. 

Ryan, in reference to your consistently calm, lengthy posts from pages back, I just want to say: you have the patience of a saint. You really do. I increasingly lack the time to log on and post, but I (and many others I know) frequently still read these forums when we have a spare minute or two.

 

24 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

Ryan, in reference to your consistently calm, lengthy posts from pages back, I just want to say: you have the patience of a saint. You really do. I increasingly lack the time to log on and post, but I (and many others I know) frequently still read these forums when we have a spare minute or two.
 

What an excellent post.. I fully agree????

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One thing I've learned variant after variant, that any on-going argument with the anti-vax crowd is akin to watching the new Korean zombie series on Netflix, "All of Us Are Dead." The script's "logic" - for lack of a better word - is, as to be expected, totally twisted and branching out in all directions in order to fill out the whole season, and yet if you're not aware, you'll get sucked into it.

 

Right now mandates are the only "strategy" - I say strategy because the tools, ie vaccines are readily available - to save ourselves, those of us who don't want to get infected and will do our best to protect ourselves and other human beings from this virus - for logic and reason have failed against the colluding forces of cynicism, politics, ignorance and the "my body, myself" school of thought -  and I'm glad city and state authorities are slowly awakening themselves, however rudely, to that fact.

 

It's kinda late but better than never.

On 1/29/2022 at 9:39 PM, placeholder said:

Another reason that your comment is invalid is that it takes no account of degree of difficulty. It's a struggle every day for the obese to lose weight.

That's correct, so it would be a good idea to educate kids that it's not a good idea to become obese in the first place, so don't eat junk food and exercise more. It's not helped by banning fat shaming and allowing kids to think obesity is normal.

Unfortunately if it is even taught ( which I doubt ) in schools it's not working very well, from the kids I see around.

On 1/29/2022 at 1:08 AM, fjb 24 said:

Anyone with a pulse probably has concluded by now that mRNA therapies provide protection albeit temporary due to vaccine waning effect as evidenced by the plethora of boosters recommended, up to 4 now with an omicron specific concoction in the works.

 

As far as I know there has only been one booster.

You are saying 4, you can't be that bad at counting.

What is the line between exaggerating and lying?

On 1/29/2022 at 2:45 PM, Ryan754326 said:

I’m not talking about your relative. I’m talking about the people who knew the risks of smoking from the very beginning and chose to do it anyway, and then expected to be saved at any cost to the system when they predictably got cancer. 
These people have been taking up space in hospitals forever. I’m sorry if you think it’s disgusting that I don’t have much sympathy for them. 
 

 

Smoking is not the topic of this discussion, but it is an example of the impact sustained misinformation campaigns have on the promotion of public health.

 

 

 

On 1/29/2022 at 2:59 PM, Ryan754326 said:

What difference does it make? People with lifestyle related illnesses have been straining the system forever, and they represent a very large portion of those who are dying from covid as well. 
 

Without those people, the system could cope much easier. That’s all there is to it. 

All the more reason to vaccinate the unvaccinated and reduce the stress on the healthcare systems.

 

 

On 1/29/2022 at 6:29 PM, Ryan754326 said:

What difference does it make? People with lifestyle related illnesses have been straining the system forever, and they represent a very large portion of those who are dying from covid as well. 
 

Without those people, the system could cope much easier. That’s all there is to it. 

I would agree that people with lifestyle related diseases should be forced to pay more for their treatments where it can be shown that those illnesses were potentially under the control of those who have them. It isn't always the case. People who smoke, drink alcohol and refuse vaccines are clearly going to strain the system somewhat.

 

Mitigation can occur in several forms. They can include better education, higher taxes and insurance premiums or rationalized care in favour of those who have taken steps to minimize their risk. All of these options should be on the table and all used where appropriate.

 

Sanctions against people spreading misinformation should also be implemented. There isn't an unfettered right to absolute freedom of speech. It's just a matter of having an independent and educated organisation to adjudicate. If we can't have that we can't progress as a society. Misinformation is the biggest challenge we face in tackling intolerance, pandemics and climate change.

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's correct, so it would be a good idea to educate kids that it's not a good idea to become obese in the first place, so don't eat junk food and exercise more. It's not helped by banning fat shaming and allowing kids to think obesity is normal.

Unfortunately if it is even taught ( which I doubt ) in schools it's not working very well, from the kids I see around.

How about tackling the advertising and other misinformation campaigns that market unhealthy foods and undermine health messaging?

 

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Sanctions against people spreading misinformation should also be implemented. There isn't an unfettered right to absolute freedom of speech. It's just a matter of having an independent and educated organisation to adjudicate. If we can't have that we can't progress as a society. Misinformation is the biggest challenge we face in tackling intolerance, pandemics and climate change.

Burn the books, censor every internet forum, ban freedom of speech too?

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Burn the books, censor every internet forum, ban freedom of speech too?

Not necessary.  Just censor those who spread it.  Like is done on this forum.

17 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Burn the books, censor every internet forum, ban freedom of speech too?

Never advocated burning books. It's US Republicans most active on that scene at the moment. All media should be censored for hate speech, antisocial behaviour and misinformation. It is a responsibility of the media owners to do so or be prosecuted for failure to do so. They obviously have a right of appeal. 

 

Would you repeal Section 18C of the Racial Vilification Act? Or the entire Act? No country has an absolute right to freedom of speech. For example, one can't make bomb jokes in an airport. They obviously can't make defamatory statements without proving it's true. Defamation laws exist everywhere. The term "Freedom of speech" is a mantra used by those who would use the right in the worst way to appeal to the worst aspects of human nature and make a claim to be free to do so. Do you not believe that there should be any limits to freedom of speech and if so, what might those limits be in a social context?

 

Most western nations have perfectly adequate and well protected laws permitting free speech.

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Burn the books, censor every internet forum, ban freedom of speech too?

Keeping up with the news I see.

On 1/31/2022 at 3:43 PM, ozimoron said:

Do you not believe that there should be any limits to freedom of speech and if so, what might those limits be in a social context?

 

Most western nations have perfectly adequate and well protected laws permitting free speech.

NO. Only speech that threatens public order or might cause injury or death eg shouting fire in a theatre.

If people are offended by speech, that's their problem, IMO.

 

More than that is getting into politics so I'll leave it there.

18 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Keeping up with the news I see.

Always the joker, per usual.

Have a nice day.

27 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

NO. Only speech that threatens public order or might cause injury or death eg shouting fire in a theatre.

If people are offended by speech, that's their problem, IMO.

 

More than that is getting into politics so I'll leave it there.

Shouting fire in a theatre isn't illegal.  It's a saying used by those for fall for the free speech/first amendment misinformation.

39 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

NO. Only speech that threatens public order or might cause injury or death eg shouting fire in a theatre.

If people are offended by speech, that's their problem, IMO.

 

More than that is getting into politics so I'll leave it there.

Agree.

 

Misinformation on vaccines and  COVID absolutely fits the bill for causing injury and death to others,

 

Misinformation is a direct cause of people refusing vaccines and not following public health advice. 

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Agree.

 

Misinformation on vaccines and  COVID absolutely fits the bill for causing injury and death to others,

 

Misinformation is a direct cause of people refusing vaccines and not following public health advice. 

............and dying......

Perhaps those pushing for "Freedom of Speech" should read up on it.  It's far from an absolute right, especially when it comes to the health and welfare of others.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

Quote

The version of Article 19 in the ICCPR later amends this by stating that the exercise of these rights carries "special duties and responsibilities" and may "therefore be subject to certain restrictions" when necessary "[f]or respect of the rights or reputation of others" or "[f]or the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals."^[3]

 

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

Perhaps those pushing for "Freedom of Speech" should read up on it.  It's far from an absolute right, especially when it comes to the health and welfare of others.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

 

Does it include also Freedom on Information Act?

We're getting a bit far afield from the topic of vaccines and the vaccinated/unvaccinated here.

 

For further posting, let's try to bring the topic back to its original focus. Thank you!

 

On 2/1/2022 at 4:34 PM, Jeffr2 said:

Shouting fire in a theatre isn't illegal.  It's a saying used by those for fall for the free speech/first amendment misinformation.

If so it should be.

 

Post edited due to previous post.

On 2/1/2022 at 4:46 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

Agree.

 

Misinformation on vaccines and  COVID absolutely fits the bill for causing injury and death to others,

 

Misinformation is a direct cause of people refusing vaccines and not following public health advice. 

I didn't refuse pfizer because of misinformation, whatever that may be, but from what I researched on reputable sites about side effects. To be clear, side effects are real, and factual.

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I didn't refuse pfizer because of misinformation, whatever that may be, but from what I researched on reputable sites about side effects. To be clear, side effects are real, and factual.

All vaccines have side effects.  Heck, for me, even taking vitamins upsets my stomach.

 

What vaccine did you get?

Just now, Jeffr2 said:

All vaccines have side effects.  Heck, for me, even taking vitamins upsets my stomach.

 

What vaccine did you get?

One that wasn't pfizer and didn't cause any side effects to me- hint, it wasn't an mRNA one.

I know someone that had serious side effects from pfizer.

Save the usual arguments about it, as I have been double vaxxed. I'd rather have been tested weekly though.

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

One that wasn't pfizer and didn't cause any side effects to me- hint, it wasn't an mRNA one.

I know someone that had serious side effects from pfizer.

Save the usual arguments about it, as I have been double vaxxed. I'd rather have been tested weekly though.

That leaves either AZ, which has had many side effects reported also, or a Chinese one.  Or, I guess, Russian.  Bizarre.

 

P.S. I don't know anyone who's had side effects from Pfizer.  Other than a bit under the weather for a day, or a sore arm.  And i know hundreds personally who've gotten the jab.