Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Hope his generals turn out to be more levelheaded than Putin and refuse to push the button. 

If that's the only thing we have that MIGHT prevent nuclear war I think it might be time for an end of times parteeee. 

[tgw]

52 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Last week it was a promise of only 5,000 helmets.  The chancellor declared that they did not want to fuel the war from the well known historic reasons of German involvement in Ukraine/Russia (did we hear about taht here?).  Wondering what (or who) changed his mind...

well, the narrative of left-wing fascist nutcases is that the EU is Germany's IVth Reich, Hydra-Style (cf. The Avengers). it's a view that many Russian squareheads share.

[tgw]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Say it IS so Joe, say it IS so:

 

Gen. Keith Kellogg on Fox News: Putin Has 'Lost This War' (mediaite.com)

 

Of course the only downside is that Putin won't ever accept losing ... so ... nuke.

no... the Russians are trying to not raze Ukraine and instead conquer it without destroying it completely.

but this is failing because of Ukrainian determination and courage (and because of years of preparation and arms supplies), which puts Putin to the choice: raze entire cities or lose.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, tgw said:

no... the Russians are trying to not raze Ukraine and instead conquer it without destroying it completely.

but this is failing because of Ukrainian determination and courage (and because of years of preparation and arms supplies), which puts Putin to the choice: raze entire cities or lose.

If he destroys the country he wins too.

[tgw]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If he destroys the country he wins too.

unlikely.

it will turn into Russia's next Afghanistan.

 

Ukrainians have had enough of Russians since 1932's holodomor

Edited February 27, 2022 by tgw

[itsari]

On 2/24/2022 at 11:40 PM, tomazbodner said:

Challenge is how do you get out of it? Putin was long threatening action if NATO expands further East and Ukraine was his main target.

 

It is therefore my guess that Russia would either take over entire Ukraine, or replace Ukraine leadership with the Pro-Russian side. They are unlikely to stick to only the 2 eastern republics which they just recognised. That said, one thing is for certain: for all that talk of how the West will support and protect Ukraine - it's clear they were just empty words.

 

Now for the fallout - Ukraine is obviously the biggest loser, followed by Europe which will be sinking under the price of gas from Qatar and US, especially if both, NordStream and pipeline over Ukraine are shut off. 10x price increase in gas affects everything. Russia? Well, they already turned to China for new market. That's what purpose of Beijing trip was for Putin at the start of Olympics.

 

 

 

 

Gas from the North sea is not able to step up production of gas ? 

New markets to china if China is ready to deal with Putin will take time . 

[tgw]

2 minutes ago, itsari said:

Gas from the North sea is not able to step up production of gas ? 

New markets to china if China is ready to deal with Putin will take time . 

if this war in Ukraine continues to go sideways, Putin's time will be up soon.

[tomazbodner]

1 minute ago, itsari said:

Gas from the North sea is not able to step up production of gas ? 

New markets to china if China is ready to deal with Putin will take time . 

I think with nuclear threats starting, that China market might disappear very quickly. It was China itself that said they want "steps to de-escalate situation, not make it worse". Well, what their comrade Vlad is doing now certainly isn't going in that direction.

 

Note the date and time when that was written... at that time not many thought that he would move beyond that 2 eastern republics... situation today is very different, and changing hourly...

[tomazbodner]

3 minutes ago, tgw said:

if this war in Ukraine continues to go sideways, Putin's time will be up soon.

And ours.

[tgw]

6 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

And ours.

I bet there are enough sharks in his wake, Putin could conveniently miss a step on one of the Kreml's huge staircases.

[onthedarkside]

Another post with an unsourced / no weblink image has been removed.

 

[Meat Pie 47]

7 minutes ago, onthedarkside said:

Another post with an unsourced / no weblink image has been removed.

 

So I repost it again

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin's_Palace

[Virt]

1 hour ago, rudi49jr said:

Saw some of his bizar rants on TV, that Russia does not negotiate with drug addicts and neo-nazis, and so on and so forth. He looked completely off his rocker. 

Looks like Putin is getting the totally opposite of what he thought.

 

Germany stepping up and will be spending more than 100 billion $ a year on the army,

which could make the German army stronger than Russia's.

Germany totally changed their political agenda due to this crisis,

so Putin managed to make NATO even stronger than before.

 

Many nations are now standing together, instead of being divided.

He didn't get the full support from China that he most likely hoped for.

Sanctions are tightened and there is still more sanctions to play if he continues. 

Protests are slowly starting to form in Russia.

Airspace are closed as of today in the whole of EU for Russian planes.

EU are also financing a lot of the Ukrainian weapons.

 

Russia has very few friends left on this planet.

 

Let's hope there still is a way out of this and he is still capable of acting like a sane person.

He should have realized by now that he is not getting Ukraine, without a huge number of casualties on both sides.

 

Even Putin can't be interested in that.

 

[NotReallyHere]

16 hours ago, tgw said:

if this war in Ukraine continues to go sideways, Putin's time will be up soon.

The problem isn't Putin.  The problem is the Russian people.  They have overwhelmingly supported Putin in all his crazy policies for over 20 years.  If Putin is removed, he will be replaced with some other Putinesque leader.  Russians don't seem to embrace Western values.  They have had 20 years to do so and haven't yet.  Google "Putin approval rating" yourself.  It's been very high for 20 years.  Plenty of credible sources.

 

If the current situation unfolded as peacefully as the annexation of Crimea, do you really think the average Russian would be the least bit concerned?  Why should they behave differently now?  If they do behave differently due to economic pressures, that does not necessarily mean they have suddenly embraced Western values.

 

[NotReallyHere]

18 minutes ago, Virt said:

Germany stepping up and will be spending more than 100 billion $ a year on the army,

which could make the German army stronger than Russia's.

Germany totally changed their political agenda due to this crisis,

so Putin managed to make NATO even stronger than before.

For the record, I am NOT a Trump supporter...

 

When Trump was demanding that Germany meet it's NATO agreement to pay 2% of GDP on defense, Germany said it wasn't possible.  Germans were incensed that he would dare make such demands.  And that was when there was a conservative CDU government in power.  Now the Social Democrats and Greens are in power but they are singing a different tune.  Major outlook shift...  Probably has something to do with the likely event that the US will be moving forces out of Germany to Eastern European borders.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Ukrainian soldiers who profanely told off Russian warship may be alive, officials say

A group of Ukrainian soldiers stationed on an island military outpost who were presumed dead after a terse yet profane interaction with a Russian warship last week may still be alive, Ukrainian officials announced Sunday.

 

The Ukrainian troops on Zmiiniy Island – also known as Snake Island – may instead have been captured by Russian military forces, according to a statement from the State Border Guard Service of Ukraine.

...

Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Major General Igor Konashenkov was quoted as saying the captured soldiers were signing "written vows to reject military resistance" and would soon be returned to their families.

 

(more)

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/27/1083363518/ukrainian-soldiers-who-profanely-told-off-russian-warship-may-be-alive-officials

 

 

[rudi49jr]

14 minutes ago, NotReallyHere said:

The problem isn't Putin.  The problem is the Russian people.  They have overwhelmingly supported Putin in all his crazy policies for over 20 years.  If Putin is removed, he will be replaced with some other Putinesque leader.  Russians don't seem to embrace Western values.  They have had 20 years to do so and haven't yet.  Google "Putin approval rating" yourself.  It's been very high for 20 years.  Plenty of credible sources.

 

If the current situation unfolded as peacefully as the annexation of Crimea, do you really think the average Russian would be the least bit concerned?  Why should they behave differently now?  If they do behave differently due to economic pressures, that does not necessarily mean they have suddenly embraced Western values.

 

Some of you will complain.  "It's not appropriate to generalize about the Russian people".  My reply "Shut up and google".

Twenty years of non-stop and relentless state propaganda will do that to a nation. I don’t think there are very many Russians who know what’s actually going on in their own country, much less outside of Russia. That, and many people probably just don’t care because they are way too busy trying to get by and make a living, which is not easy at all in Russia.

[NotReallyHere]

29 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Twenty years of non-stop and relentless state propaganda will do that to a nation. I don’t think there are very many Russians who know what’s actually going on in their own country, much less outside of Russia. That, and many people probably just don’t care because they are way too busy trying to get by and make a living, which is not easy at all in Russia.

Nonsense...  The average Russian knows better than anyone how corrupt their government is and how unjust their society is.  That was true in the Soviet era and is even more the case today.  It's 2022.  There are no serious barriers to the flow of information in Russia.  To suggest otherwise is almost insulting.  They do not live on the dark side of the moon.  Apparently, effective Friday, Russia is blocking Twitter and Facebook.  Which means it has been readily available prior and had a negative impact on the message the government was trying to send.  Granted Facebook and Twitter are not the best sources for information, but it's not the case that Russians are suffering under "non-stop and relentless state propaganda" for twenty years.  They know when they are being fed the party line and they had other uncensored news sources available.

 

But it seems, the average Russian will go along, to get along.  If corruption or injustice doesn't impact them personally, they appear to have no problem with it.  Crimea being a prime example.

Edited February 27, 2022 by NotReallyHere
highlight for emphasis

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Anti-war protests held in cities across Russia, 2,000 people arrested

 

MOSCOW, Feb 27 (Reuters) - Police detained more than 2,000 people at anti-war protests held in 48 cities across Russia on Sunday, a protest monitoring group said, as people defied the authorities to show their anger over Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

 

More than 5,500 people have been detained at various anti-war protests since the invasion began on Thursday, according to the OVD-Info monitor, which has documented crackdowns on Russia's opposition for years.

 

In Moscow, riot police often outnumbered protesters, some of whom carried hand-written placards with peace signs and anti-war slogans in Russian and Ukrainian. 

 

(more)

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/police-detain-more-than-900-people-anti-war-protests-across-russia-monitoring-2022-02-27/

 

 

 

[NotReallyHere]

7 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Anti-war protests held in cities across Russia, 2,000 people arrested

 

MOSCOW, Feb 27 (Reuters) - Police detained more than 2,000 people at anti-war protests held in 48 cities across Russia on Sunday, a protest monitoring group said, as people defied the authorities to show their anger over Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

 

More than 5,500 people have been detained at various anti-war protests since the invasion began on Thursday, according to the OVD-Info monitor, which has documented crackdowns on Russia's opposition for years.

 

In Moscow, riot police often outnumbered protesters, some of whom carried hand-written placards with peace signs and anti-war slogans in Russian and Ukrainian. 

 

(more)

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/police-detain-more-than-900-people-anti-war-protests-across-russia-monitoring-2022-02-27/

 

 

 

 

Too little, too late... 

 

Where were the protesters prior to the invasion?  I guess they've heard of the coming economic hardships...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

"Ukraine is doing its best to repel the Russian attack by training civilians to fight. Support from the US and other NATO members has also bolstered national defenses. But few believe Ukraine is a match for its much larger neighbor.

 

Taking active and reserve troops together, Kyiv can draw on more than 1 million men and women. Russia has more than three million. Ukraine has less than 2,500 tanks, compared to Russia's 13,000. And in the air, Ukraine has just 67 attack aircraft in contrast to Russia's 1,500."

 

DW News

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Meat Pie 47]

5 minutes ago, NotReallyHere said:

Nonsense...  The average Russian knows better than anyone how corrupt their government is and how unjust their society is.  That was true in the Soviet era and is even more the case today.  It's 2022.  There are no serious barriers to the flow of information in Russia.  To suggest otherwise is almost insulting.  They do not live on the dark side of the moon.  Apparently, effective Friday, Russia is blocking Twitter and Facebook.  Which means it has been readily available prior and had a negative impact on the message the government was trying to send.  Granted Facebook and Twitter are not the best sources for information, but it's not the case that Russians are suffering under "non-stop and relentless state propaganda" for twenty years.  They know when they are being fed the party line and they had other uncensored news sources available.

 

But it seems, the average Russian will go along, to get along.  If corruption or injustice doesn't impact them personally, they appear to have no problem with it.  Crimea being a prime example.

You know nothing about Russian people or you just a Russian troll I deleted all my Russian contacts on FaceBook and Twitter and why? because the all pro Putin and I just can't put up with their nonsense and propaganda

[Chris.B]

22 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Taking active and reserve troops together, Kyiv can draw on more than 1 million men and women. Russia has more than three million. Ukraine has less than 2,500 tanks, compared to Russia's 13,000. And in the air, Ukraine has just 67 attack aircraft in contrast to Russia's 1,500."

 

DW News

 

 

1,000,000 men and women who want to fight the invaders against 3,000,000 conscripts who want to go home.

 

As for tanks, there aren't going to be major tank battles in Ukraine. It will be street to street, house to house where tanks will be of no use.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Chris.B

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 hours ago, Chris.B said:

1,000,000 men and women who want to fight the invaders against 3,000,000 who want to go home.

 

 

My thoughts exactly when I saw those stats being reported.

 

The will/motivation to win means a lot, and that certainly favors the Ukrainians.

 

But it's still a big difference to offset.

 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, NotReallyHere said:

Nonsense...  The average Russian knows better than anyone how corrupt their government is and how unjust their society is.  That was true in the Soviet era and is even more the case today.  It's 2022.  There are no serious barriers to the flow of information in Russia.  To suggest otherwise is almost insulting.  They do not live on the dark side of the moon.  Apparently, effective Friday, Russia is blocking Twitter and Facebook.  Which means it has been readily available prior and had a negative impact on the message the government was trying to send.  Granted Facebook and Twitter are not the best sources for information, but it's not the case that Russians are suffering under "non-stop and relentless state propaganda" for twenty years.  They know when they are being fed the party line and they had other uncensored news sources available.

 

But it seems, the average Russian will go along, to get along.  If corruption or injustice doesn't impact them personally, they appear to have no problem with it.  Crimea being a prime example.

Could you please explain why independent Russian media has been instructed to stop referring to the invasion of the Ukraine as war, etc., and only use the term "special military operation" under threat of heavy fines and/or prison? You think that is not censorship?

Russia ( Putin ) is blocking Twitter and Facebook to stop its citizens from discussing the number of bodybags occupied by their children that will be coming back to their neighborhoods. That is censorship too.

This war is going to impact them personally, when exports are curtailed the only people with money will be the oligarchs, who are running out of places to hide their wealth, and won't be able

to transfer it safely.

Putin and his generals planned a clean, surgical military operation that would take over Ukraine in a few days. They prepared the ground with a barrage of propaganda over the last 6 months. He is now finding out, as von Moltke said, no plan survives contact with the enemy.

[candide]

3 hours ago, NotReallyHere said:

For the record, I am NOT a Trump supporter...

 

When Trump was demanding that Germany meet it's NATO agreement to pay 2% of GDP on defense, Germany said it wasn't possible.  Germans were incensed that he would dare make such demands.  And that was when there was a conservative CDU government in power.  Now the Social Democrats and Greens are in power but they are singing a different tune.  Major outlook shift...  Probably has something to do with the likely event that the US will be moving forces out of Germany to Eastern European borders.

I am known for not being a Trump supporter and I agree with you that Trump, for once, was intuitively right. Well not completely as the key issue is not about each European country independently spending enough, It's about how these military expenses could be coordinated in order to efficiently complement each other.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

5 hours ago, Virt said:

Looks like Putin is getting the totally opposite of what he thought.

 

Germany stepping up and will be spending more than 100 billion $ a year on the army,

which could make the German army stronger than Russia's.

Germany totally changed their political agenda due to this crisis,

so Putin managed to make NATO even stronger than before.

 

Many nations are now standing together, instead of being divided.

He didn't get the full support from China that he most likely hoped for.

Sanctions are tightened and there is still more sanctions to play if he continues. 

Protests are slowly starting to form in Russia.

Airspace are closed as of today in the whole of EU for Russian planes.

EU are also financing a lot of the Ukrainian weapons.

 

Russia has very few friends left on this planet.

 

Let's hope there still is a way out of this and he is still capable of acting like a sane person.

He should have realized by now that he is not getting Ukraine, without a huge number of casualties on both sides.

 

Even Putin can't be interested in that.

 

Also Sweden said last night that they will send five thousand shoulder launch anti tank weapons to Ukraine and over one billion SEK. Russia's foreign minister had threatened Sweden and Finland just before if they join NATO that Russia will not sit still.  

[Bkk Brian]

Large deployment of Russian ground forces including tanks moving toward Kyiv, according to satellite imagery.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-convoy-ground-forces-fuel-tanks-moving-toward-kyiv-maxar-2022-02-27/

[Bkk Brian]

Germany united against Putin, huge crowds protesting.

Source AFP

[Jingthing]

8 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Some Putin watchers are saying something has fundamentally changed with him. Perhaps medical. But yeah, he appears to have transitioned from maybe a rational actor to DEFINITELY NOT. 

More on this. 

I guess the world should be on alert. 

We've got a crazy old man with nukes making threats.

Aside from the Cuban missile crisis, did the cold war ever get as bad as this?

 

 

Putin 'Increasingly Unhinged,' May Not Negotiate 'Peaceful Outcome': McFaul (msn.com)