Trans women athletes fairness question is not going away

[Jotnar]

20 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

My thoughts are,

There should be no sexual partitioning in any sports.

Sure, divide them into weight categories, but that's it.

Going with the Dave Chappelle thinking.   

 

[Jingthing]

In general I think more formal competitive sports should remain sex segregated and realistically that's just not going to change.

 

There may be exceptions such as girls being allowed on younger age school sports teams.

 

 

[JeffersLos]

Born with an outie - male, compete in male events only.

 

Born with an innie - female, compete in female events only. 

 

Issue solved. ???? 

[Denim]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:11 AM, Dcheech said:

As such if you want it to be fair, then they need their own division to compete in.

Exactly. 

 

Either that or re classify sporting events into  ' womb participants ' and  ' non womb participants '

 

Let them pick the bones out of that one.

[CharlieH]

5 minutes ago, Denim said:

Exactly. 

 

Either that or re classify sporting events into  ' womb participants ' and  ' non womb participants '

 

Let them pick the bones out of that one.

XX & XY categories . ????

[Jingthing]

As said before there aren't enough trans athletes to support separate trans leagues. It's a completely ridiculous idea.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

As said before there aren't enough trans athletes to support separate trans leagues. It's a completely ridiculous idea.

Then they wont be able to compete and any leagues then .

People need to accept and understand that they cannot always get what they want 

[Jingthing]

53 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Then they wont be able to compete and any leagues then .

People need to accept and understand that they cannot always get what they want 

Of course.

Not everything 

But what is reasonably fair should be pushed for.

Such as access to toilets, non discrimination in housing, employment, and health care, and protection from violence.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If you were using a cubicle public toilet , would you prefer to have a Male , Female or transgender person sat in the adjoining cubicle next to you?

What's with the obsession with toilets?

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, Jingthing said:

What's with the obsession with toilets?

I was responding to a topic that you bought up 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I was responding to a topic that you bought up 

It was a loaded baiting question.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

It was a loaded baiting question.

 

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

It was a loaded baiting question.

 

   OK, I deleted the question 

[mtls2005]

22 hours ago, Jotnar said:

Going with the Dave Chappelle thinking. 

Are you though?

 

His final message in your clip evidently doesn't apply to you, or it went way over your head, or you chose to ignore it?

 

I love it when folks quote a "comedian", and DChap is a brilliant one, who always claim to be "just a comedian" who they tell us we should not take them seriously, as if we should take them seriously.

 

Go figure.

 

 

 

I don't follow this specific topic too closely. And I am rarely without an opinion, but I've chosen to, on this one, defer to the women and trans athletes to sort this out, and come up with solutions they find acceptable. Amend Title IX as necessary, without a lot of input from older, non-trans white males. Caitlyn can feel free to step off too.

 

By the way, Caitlyn Jenner was supportive of trans World Cup footballer Jaiyah Saelua back in 2017. Her pre-Kool-Aid days I guess.

 

My vaguest perception is that High-Scholl and College sports which feature individuals competing (yes, individual events, even relays can be part of a larger team event) are more subject to controversy. Here individual females have expressed concern with fairness, perhaps rightly so - I don't follow these events - results and testosterone level mandates - closely

 

While team events, like soccer, volleyball seem to be more accepting.

 

 

 

Title IX is settled law and legislated, but I'm sure Justice Alito will be along shortly to tell us otherwise. And that the Fourteenth Amendment does not apply.

 

Still amazing that we've yet to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by mtls2005

[Jotnar]

42 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

Are you though?

 

His final message in your clip evidently doesn't apply to you, or it went way over your head, or you chose to ignore it?

My reply was to the quoted BritMan reply, not to the thread title or the issue of trans in sports.  Pointing out a comedic agreement.

 

To the thread topic, trans vs women, I don't agree with.  Not a sports fan, but men competing against women in women designated sports just isn't right, for the obvious reasons.  If you have testes, you have a testosterone and muscular advantage.  I little I do read, men seem to be dominating the women sports they are competing in. 

 

If a 'menstuating' woman wants to compete against men, good luck.

 

Last interview I saw with Jenner, Jenner was against trans competing against women.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jenner+against+trans+sport

Edited May 9, 2022 by Jotnar

[Credo]

I don't have a strong opinion, but I think it would be best for individual sports to decide who should be included.   Some sports seem to be able to accommodate either women or men pretty close to equally.   

 

[Jingthing]

On 5/9/2022 at 11:09 AM, Jotnar said:

My reply was to the quoted BritMan reply, not to the thread title or the issue of trans in sports.  Pointing out a comedic agreement.

 

To the thread topic, trans vs women, I don't agree with.  Not a sports fan, but men competing against women in women designated sports just isn't right, for the obvious reasons.  If you have testes, you have a testosterone and muscular advantage.  I little I do read, men seem to be dominating the women sports they are competing in. 

 

If a 'menstuating' woman wants to compete against men, good luck.

 

Last interview I saw with Jenner, Jenner was against trans competing against women.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jenner+against+trans+sport

Jenner does not represent trans women at all! She's a republican who happens to be famous. Her opinion carries no more weight than any random transgender woman (who are overwhelmingly NOT republican for obvious reasons). In the U.S. the republican party has basically declared WAR on transgender people. 

 

i don't agree with calling trans women men. It's fine not to call them women but they ARE different in that they have transitioned or are in the process so that real difference should be acknowledged in referring to them. 

 

There have been some high profile cases where transgender women competing with women have been exceptional athletes, but by no means are most of them at the elite level. But some are and that pisses off a lot of people as the accusation of UNFAIRNESS is made. It may or may not be objectively unfair in a particular case, but the thesis of this topic is that there is an actual rational basis for the accusations.  It's at the very least a defensible position. Compared to pure hateful policies such as making giving health care to trans youth in Alabama a felony is pure bigotry, hate, and political demagoguery. 

 

This topic isn't about not respecting or understanding transgender issues.

It's about political realism. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

38 minutes ago, Credo said:

I don't have a strong opinion, but I think it would be best for individual sports to decide who should be included.   Some sports seem to be able to accommodate either women or men pretty close to equally.   

 

I guess that makes sense but frankly I think it's really really hard to avoid this issue being politicized.

[SunnyinBangrak]

"Doctors confirm trans swimmer Lia Thomas DOES have an unfair advantage even after taking testosterone suppressants

Mayo Clinic doctor Michael Joyner said testosterone is the '800lb gorilla' which gives biological men an advantage "

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10868453/Mayo-Clinic-doctor-confirms-trans-swimmer-Lia-Thomas-given-unfair-advantage.html

 

I wonder if Lia's trophies and records will be rescinded? About time this nonsense came to an abrupt end.

 

[Jingthing]

37 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

"Doctors confirm trans swimmer Lia Thomas DOES have an unfair advantage even after taking testosterone suppressants

Mayo Clinic doctor Michael Joyner said testosterone is the '800lb gorilla' which gives biological men an advantage "

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10868453/Mayo-Clinic-doctor-confirms-trans-swimmer-Lia-Thomas-given-unfair-advantage.html

 

I wonder if Lia's trophies and records will be rescinded? About time this nonsense came to an abrupt end.

 

Let's make these decisions which will hurt some people in the spirit of love and tolerance, rather than as a culture wars political football.

[Jingthing]

I could have predicted this.

A losing issue.

Its not gonna get better.

Pick your fights wisely.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/06/13/washington-post-umd-poll-most-americans-oppose-transgender-athletes-female-sports/

 

 

 

 ISSUES

Most Americans oppose trans athletes in female sports, poll finds

 

Even as an increasing share of Americans report familiarity with and tolerance for transgender people, most oppose allowing transgender female athletes to compete against other women at the professional, college and high school level, according to a Washington Post-University of Maryland poll.

The poll, conducted May 4 through 17 among 1,503 people across the United States, finds 55 percent of Americans opposed to allowing transgender women and girls to compete with other women and girls in high school sports and 58 percent opposed to it for college and professional sports. About 3 in 10 Americans said transgender women and girls should be allowed to compete at each of those levels, while an additional 15 percent have no opinion.

[tgw]

On 5/8/2022 at 7:33 AM, JeffersLos said:

Born with an outie - male, compete in male events only.

 

Born with an innie - female, compete in female events only. 

 

Issue solved. ???? 

okay, what about people who are born with both? can they compete in either ?

[tgw]

On 5/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, CharlieH said:

XX & XY categories . ????

even these are not so clear-cut.

[tgw]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:17 AM, Jingthing said:

equality goals

my opinion is that equality is inhuman, and perfect equality unachievable.

 

nature itself is not perfect, as it allows for people with 2 visible gender attributes to exist (yes, you read that correctly, there are people born with both a vagina and a penis), as well as for people with more or less than the 2 normal chromosome pairs XX and XY.

 

furthermore, both concepts of gender and fairness are human creations.

Edited June 14, 2022 by tgw

[Rhys]

FINA is taking steps...finally...

[Jingthing]

19 minutes ago, Rhys said:

FINA is taking steps...finally...

As I said this is a losing issue for trans women athletes. Save the fight for winnable issues.

[Credo]

I am going to go along with the decision by Fina.  They are in the best position to decide, IMO.  I believe they allow trans women who have transitions before the age of 12 (puberty) to participate.  As I understand it, they will start another category for trans people.   

 

I have the greatest amount of compassion for trans people.  I don't understand it, but I can't for a moment believe that anyone would take such drastic action lightly.     

 

 

[jak2002003]

It's disagree with stopping anyone entering some sport competition, disabled, trans, race, gender, anything. Everyone should have the right to compete.

 

There should be no discrimination whatsoever.  First priority is the stop the 'mens' this and 'womens' that. 

 

Everybody should just compete together in one group. 

 

Men against women, women against disabled, age against age.....to find the winner who is the most able.  Then that is 100 percent inclusive and none discriminatory.  No one can say they were excluded.   No group should get special treatment. 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by jak2002003

[Rhys]

The concept of fairness of sport has become quite difficult to define, sadly like the definitions of men and women.

[Jingthing]

*Deleted topic edited out*

 

Defining transgender women as merely a man wearing a skirt suggests massive ignorance. Its so sad to me that it has become fashionable indeed a blood sport to display such ignorance like a badge of cisgender heteronormative  honor.  Internationally autohoritarian demagogue politicians as varied as Bolsonaro, Putin, and DeSantis are milking such ignorance to stoke hatred and gain or keep in power.. Scapegoats are always politically useful but its not so nice for the people being scapegoated.

[KhunLA]

I have my own opinion why Lia Thomas decided to compete against women instead of men.   This little tidbit may help you understand that opinion of mine.  I guess it sucked losing all the time.

 

...  "According to the swimming data website Swimcloud, Thomas is ranked 36th among female college swimmers in the United States for the 2021–2022 season, and 46th among women swimmers nationally. By the conclusion of Thomas's swimming career at UPenn in 2022, her rank had moved from 65th on the men's team to 1st on the women's team in the 500-yard freestyle, and 554th on the men's team to 5th on the women's team in the 200-yard freestyle"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas#Penn_men's_swim_team_records