Electric Vehicles in Thailand

[Andrew Dwyer]

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

The Seal has an LFP 12v battery, should be good for a few years, most others are lead-acid, we have one of those Lithium based power banks that will start an ICE vehicle, it might be worth keeping one of those in the car.

Would be good to know which one would be suitable for a LFP 12v battery, do you have a link ?

 

I posted this before but now the Seal family has expanded thought it would be helpful to repost.

 

As the location of the Seal battery is unusual it is useful to know that jumping can be done from under the hood/bonnet.

 

From the on-board manual:

 

Investing in one of these battery packs for any future use seems like a good idea.

 

NOTE: not that i am suggesting the car is susceptible to this issue but as EV’s have an ever expanding range of electronic options better to be prepared.

 

[JBChiangRai]

19 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Would be good to know which one would be suitable for a LFP 12v battery, do you have a link ?

 

 

I think all the 12v ones are suitable, the 12v LFP battery and electrical system will be mimicking a normal cars system.

 

2-in-1 4USB Jump Start & Power Bank 99800mAh Jump Starter Kit with Air Pump + USB 4 Ports Portable Car Charger Jumpstarter Car Starter Aid Car Jump Start Jump Start Powerbank | Lazada.co.th

 

You probably only need the cheapest one as it's never going to turnover an ICE.

 

Interestingly, the Tesla Cybertruck has moved to a 48 volt system, I think that's a trend we will see.

[Yellowtail]

I am surprised you are not provided with a jump-cord that would allow you to jump off the main battery in emergencies.  

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

I am surprised you are not provided with a jump-cord that would allow you to jump off the main battery in emergencies.  

Main traction batteries in an EV are 400-800V batteries and that would probably be just a little too high voltage to jump a 12V with.   Additionally that little 12V battery is what powers/turn off and on some key components in the traction battery like the traction battery contactors (high power relay switches) that connect the traction battery to the electric drive motor when the EV is started.    Now the 12V battery gets recharged from the 400-800V traction battery after that high DC voltage is converted/stepped down by EV electronics to around 14V to keep the 12V charged.

 

Yeap, that 12V battery may be very small when standing next to that big ol' 400-800V traction battery but that little 12V battery knows that big traction battery can't power-up the car and some important stuff without him.  

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, Pib said:

Main traction batteries in an EV are 400-800V batteries and that would probably be just a little too high voltage to jump a 12V with.   Additionally that little 12V battery is what powers/turn off and on some key components in the traction battery like the traction battery contactors (high power relay switches) that connect the traction battery to the electric drive motor when the EV is started.    Now the 12V battery gets recharged from the 400-800V traction battery after that high DC voltage is converted/stepped down by EV electronics to around 14V to keep the 12V charged.

 

Yeap, that 12V battery may be very small when standing next to that big ol' 400-800V traction battery but that little 12V battery knows that big traction battery can't power-up the car and some important stuff without him.  

What does that have to do with what I said? 

 

Again: I am surprised you are not provided with a jump-cord that would allow you to jump off the main battery in emergencies.   

 

Surely this would not be that difficult.  

500V to 12V DC/DC converter, 400W • DWE (dwe-oss.eu)

[Pib]

23 hours ago, Pib said:

Update: I went to that manufacturers website to check on the specs of the device....it didn't show the BM200 that I saw anywhere but did show the next model up which was a BM300.  Looking at the specs/manual, it does "not" do impedance/resistance checking of the battery (i.e., scanning) or do you need to enter any new battery capacity info which means it simply monitors voltage levels like when cranking to primarily determine SOH.  Such a method is not a very good method to determine SOH in comparison via impedance/resistance measurement.  And it's a terrible way to determine SOH for a battery that never encounters a heavy load like when cranking....in an EV there is no cranking.

 

https://anceltech.com/collections/Heavy-Duty-Trucks-Scanner.html

 

 

Last night while watching a bunch of Youtube's in bed....my nightly routine to help me fall asleep....I did a Youtube search for: battery tester BM200.  Youtube came back with a bunch of videos showing use a real battery testers....hand held models that do a "battery resistance/impedance test to determine State of Health (SOH)."  And in each-and-every case one of the first steps is to enter the Cold Cranking Amperage (CCA) or similar battery rating of an identically rated "new" battery. 

 

12V batteries come in all physical sizes, CCA capacity ratings, Amp-Hour ratings, etc.  High CCA ratings for big engine/high compression vehicles like diesel powered vehicles which require a lot of amp to crank, lower CCA ratings for compact vehicles with small engines which require a moderate level of amps (say around a 100A) to crank.  After entering the CCA of a new battery which serves as a reference for the SOH tester the tester then does its measurements over a few seconds of the battery you are testing and then displays results like battery resistance, voltage, calculated CCA, and a Good/Pass/Replace type reading...and a key factor in making that determination was referenced to a new battery CCA rating.  

 

But in the half dozen or Youtube videos for the BM200 tester no CCA rating was ever entered when installing/using it...and it appeared to give a SOH percentage/rating based solely on comparing how low the voltage dipped momentarily when starting the vehicle (a.k.a., like cranking an ICE vehicle to life).  If while starting the vehicle say it dipped to 9V I expect the BM200 would give a low SOH percentage and probably a Replace battery warning.  But if dipping to the 9-11V range it would probably give a medium SOH percentage and a Weak battery warning.  And anything above 11V it would probably give a high SOH percentage and Good battery reading.    Yes, it sure appears it determined SOH purely based on how low the battery momentarily dipped while "starting/cranking" the vehicle versus scanning the battery to determine battery resistance/impedance to calculated a current CCA capacity referenced to a new/factory fresh battery and its CCA capacity.   

 

How low a battery dips while "starting/cranking" is definitely a good indicator if your battery has lost capacity, getting weak, etc., but it does not give you a more precise indication of how much capacity (i.e., CCA) currently remains in comparison to when it was new...also what the battery resistance is which is another good indicator of battery health.    

 

Now if you were buying the BM200 for a ICEV , repeat, a ICEV which has a starter and draws "in the ballpark of over 100A when starting a small engine ICEV, 200-300A when starting a big/high compression/diesel engine" then if it reports the voltage is dipping to around the 9-10V while starting which means the battery has lost a lot of it's original capacity/getting weak then yes it could be very useful in getting heads-up your 12V battery is reaching it's end of life....has a low SOH....time to replace it.  Hopefully avoid the battery just having a heart attack one morning when trying to start your vehicle...can't even crank the engine.....gotta get someone to give you a jump....call a tow truck...call for a new battery.

 

But a BM200 on a 100% electric vehicle would be nothing more than a device that gives you a voltage reading that would always be good right up until the point the battery just flat-out died one day.   That's because since a BEV does not have a starter which draws hundreds of amp which will cause a the 12V battery to dip momentarily in voltage by around 1 to 3 volts the BM200 would always see a voltage reading of a full 12V battery which would be around 12.6V (or higher) except "just before" the battery was getting ready to have a heart attack.

 

This morning I did some battery testing on my BEV....a BYD Atto 3 which has a 12V lead acid battery, P/N 38B20L, 12V, 36Ah, CCA 335A...specs listed right on top of the battery.   It put a DC clamp-on amp meter on a battery cable while also monitoring the voltage for a dip with a voltmeter.  Started the car and approx 20 to 22A was very briefly pulled...the voltage level didn't dip even a tenth of a volt with such a light draw of current.  A few seconds after the car started with AC and running lights a 3.6A battery draw was shown.....when turning off the car approx 6A was shown and a voltage of 13.8V like the battery "charging/topping up" was occurring...OR, maybe the car electronics was taking care of some other tasks....because when you turn off an EV it's more of putting the car in standby/sleep mode vs being completely turned off.     Yeap, more amps was being drawn after turning off the car than when running.  I expect amps draw would have tapered off to very little if I had monitor the current draw longer.    I did this starting tests a few times....same results each time.  Very little current draw on the 12V battery....it's not worked very hard like a 12V on an ICEV.

 

I also used my hand held battery tester to test the 12V battery....I've had the Atto for less than 3 months....I expect the battery is no more than 6 months old....after entering the CCA 335A for a new battery I ran the test....it came back with  a SOH of 100%, State of Charge 98%, lower resistance reading,  and a 380 CCA reading ...a "higher" CCA than a new battery which is questionable in my mind.  I haven't seen that on other batteries I've tested on ICE vehicles like my Toyota Fortuner.   Maybe the questionable CCA rating is due to being an in-car test vs testing the battery disconnected.  Or maybe the CCA reading was correct.  Some day I'll run a test with the battery disconnected from the car...see if it makes a difference.  Testing the battery hooked up or unhooked on my Fortuner ICEV doesn't make a difference.  

 

But my amperage and voltage tests this morning while starting the EV shows a very light amperage draw of around 20A when starting which is very easy/places little stress on the battery....much less stress than the high cranking current draw of hundreds of amps in an ICEV. 

 

 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

What does that have to do with what I said? 

 

Again: I am surprised you are not provided with a jump-cord that would allow you to jump off the main battery in emergencies.   

 

Surely this would not be that difficult.  

500V to 12V DC/DC converter, 400W • DWE (dwe-oss.eu)

 

That's a big DC/DC converter for a jump-cord.  Plus, with a dead/flat 12V battery the traction battery wouldn't be engaged to provide a power output to it's charging port like for a Vehicle-To-Load setup to power the a jump-cord setup.  But I guess the manufacturer could redesign their EV electronics/controls to create an internal 12V jumper, but I expect they would have a variety of reasons they don't do such with some of them being safety related.

 

Do you know of any EV manufacturer that provides a jump-cord setup like you propose?

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

That's a big DC/DC converter for a jump-cord.  Plus, with a dead/flat 12V battery the traction battery wouldn't be engaged to provide a power output to it's charging port like for a Vehicle-To-Load setup to power the a jump-cord setup.  But I guess the manufacturer could redesign their EV electronics/controls to create an internal 12V jumper, but I expect they would have a variety of reasons they don't do such with some of them being safety related.

 

Do you know of any EV manufacturer that provides a jump-cord setup like you propose?

 

I do not, and that surprises me.

 

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

Does anyone know how to make Google maps open with charging stations already showing ??

I believe it can be done both on phone and on the car version if you have sideloaded ( probably if done on phone then the car version will follow if signed in, not sure )

I can bring up charging stations on both phone and car ( they are slightly different versions ) but cannot save to open with the chargers on the map automatically.

 

Anyone ??

[mistral53]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:54 PM, Pib said:

 

Last night while watching a bunch of Youtube's in bed....my nightly routine to help me fall asleep....I did a Youtube search for: battery tester BM200.  Youtube came back with a bunch of videos showing use a real battery testers....hand held models that do a "battery resistance/impedance test to determine State of Health (SOH)."  And in each-and-every case one of the first steps is to enter the Cold Cranking Amperage (CCA) or similar battery rating of an identically rated "new" battery. 

 

12V batteries come in all physical sizes, CCA capacity ratings, Amp-Hour ratings, etc.  High CCA ratings for big engine/high compression vehicles like diesel powered vehicles which require a lot of amp to crank, lower CCA ratings for compact vehicles with small engines which require a moderate level of amps (say around a 100A) to crank.  After entering the CCA of a new battery which serves as a reference for the SOH tester the tester then does its measurements over a few seconds of the battery you are testing and then displays results like battery resistance, voltage, calculated CCA, and a Good/Pass/Replace type reading...and a key factor in making that determination was referenced to a new battery CCA rating.  

 

But in the half dozen or Youtube videos for the BM200 tester no CCA rating was ever entered when installing/using it...and it appeared to give a SOH percentage/rating based solely on comparing how low the voltage dipped momentarily when starting the vehicle (a.k.a., like cranking an ICE vehicle to life).  If while starting the vehicle say it dipped to 9V I expect the BM200 would give a low SOH percentage and probably a Replace battery warning.  But if dipping to the 9-11V range it would probably give a medium SOH percentage and a Weak battery warning.  And anything above 11V it would probably give a high SOH percentage and Good battery reading.    Yes, it sure appears it determined SOH purely based on how low the battery momentarily dipped while "starting/cranking" the vehicle versus scanning the battery to determine battery resistance/impedance to calculated a current CCA capacity referenced to a new/factory fresh battery and its CCA capacity.   

 

How low a battery dips while "starting/cranking" is definitely a good indicator if your battery has lost capacity, getting weak, etc., but it does not give you a more precise indication of how much capacity (i.e., CCA) currently remains in comparison to when it was new...also what the battery resistance is which is another good indicator of battery health.    

 

Now if you were buying the BM200 for a ICEV , repeat, a ICEV which has a starter and draws "in the ballpark of over 100A when starting a small engine ICEV, 200-300A when starting a big/high compression/diesel engine" then if it reports the voltage is dipping to around the 9-10V while starting which means the battery has lost a lot of it's original capacity/getting weak then yes it could be very useful in getting heads-up your 12V battery is reaching it's end of life....has a low SOH....time to replace it.  Hopefully avoid the battery just having a heart attack one morning when trying to start your vehicle...can't even crank the engine.....gotta get someone to give you a jump....call a tow truck...call for a new battery.

 

But a BM200 on a 100% electric vehicle would be nothing more than a device that gives you a voltage reading that would always be good right up until the point the battery just flat-out died one day.   That's because since a BEV does not have a starter which draws hundreds of amp which will cause a the 12V battery to dip momentarily in voltage by around 1 to 3 volts the BM200 would always see a voltage reading of a full 12V battery which would be around 12.6V (or higher) except "just before" the battery was getting ready to have a heart attack.

 

This morning I did some battery testing on my BEV....a BYD Atto 3 which has a 12V lead acid battery, P/N 38B20L, 12V, 36Ah, CCA 335A...specs listed right on top of the battery.   It put a DC clamp-on amp meter on a battery cable while also monitoring the voltage for a dip with a voltmeter.  Started the car and approx 20 to 22A was very briefly pulled...the voltage level didn't dip even a tenth of a volt with such a light draw of current.  A few seconds after the car started with AC and running lights a 3.6A battery draw was shown.....when turning off the car approx 6A was shown and a voltage of 13.8V like the battery "charging/topping up" was occurring...OR, maybe the car electronics was taking care of some other tasks....because when you turn off an EV it's more of putting the car in standby/sleep mode vs being completely turned off.     Yeap, more amps was being drawn after turning off the car than when running.  I expect amps draw would have tapered off to very little if I had monitor the current draw longer.    I did this starting tests a few times....same results each time.  Very little current draw on the 12V battery....it's not worked very hard like a 12V on an ICEV.

 

I also used my hand held battery tester to test the 12V battery....I've had the Atto for less than 3 months....I expect the battery is no more than 6 months old....after entering the CCA 335A for a new battery I ran the test....it came back with  a SOH of 100%, State of Charge 98%, lower resistance reading,  and a 380 CCA reading ...a "higher" CCA than a new battery which is questionable in my mind.  I haven't seen that on other batteries I've tested on ICE vehicles like my Toyota Fortuner.   Maybe the questionable CCA rating is due to being an in-car test vs testing the battery disconnected.  Or maybe the CCA reading was correct.  Some day I'll run a test with the battery disconnected from the car...see if it makes a difference.  Testing the battery hooked up or unhooked on my Fortuner ICEV doesn't make a difference.  

 

But my amperage and voltage tests this morning while starting the EV shows a very light amperage draw of around 20A when starting which is very easy/places little stress on the battery....much less stress than the high cranking current draw of hundreds of amps in an ICEV. 

 

 

 

From my experience, the battery needs to be disconnected from the car to get accurate readings on the 12V battery SOH?

[Andrew Dwyer]

My experience of ordering a TOU meter ( 2nd circuit for EV charging only ) from PEA, if any thinking of going this route.

 

Ordered car Oct 24th, visited local PEA Authority Oct 25th.

Docs required: Car booking receipt, car spec ( brochure ), wall charger spec ( showroom sent by SMS ).

PEA checked specs of existing meter from house owner id, and checked location of power pole via Google Maps.

Received authorisation and job number.

Received car Nov 30th, Wall charger installed Dec 23rd, pay 9000 baht flat fee plus 300 baht per metre for extra cable used ( 1st 15 metre free ).

Informed PEA Dec 25th.

PEA visit to check installation Dec 26th.

Return to PEA Authority Dec 27th to sign contract and pay 4,900 baht flat fee.

PEA installed TOU meter Jan 8th.

 

76 days for me, most time waiting for car delivery and wall charger installation, PEA 2 weeks, YMMV.

[Pib]

Andrew, Good rundown...thanks. 

 

Your costs were basically identical to this lady's installation costs in Chonburi.  Below snapshot is from her Youtube video on her install where she detailed the costs of "Running a 2nd Circuit + PEA Costs"....took pretty much all day in her case.  I expect installation at her residence was more complicated than yours.....each install will be different.   If Google Translate and I understood her video/cost chart correctly, here's a summary of costs:

 

The 1st column shows what parts/labor are included in a typical "Bt9,000 package" deal to install a 2nd circuit. 

 

The 2nd column gives more detail on the package deal.   

 

The 3rd column shows the installation cost "at her residence" which went Bt2,700 over the Bt9,000 package flat price adding up to Bt11,700 before she got a Bt1,700 with final price (parts and labor) for the 2nd circuit/charger install being Bt10,000.     But we haven't got to PEA costs yet.  

 

The 4th column is just a column reflecting "market retail" parts costs excluding any labor costs....just something to help show the package deal of the charger installer is a probably a good deal compared to open market (retail) price.

 

Now at this time PEA has "not" installed the 2nd meter or inspected the installation.....the installer just does a quick check of the charger installation by temporarily connecting to her currently installed meter (a.k.a., 1st circuit)   Once the charger is tested and its operation explained to the lady that temporarily connection is removed awaiting PEA to come out inspect the installation and install the 2nd meter.  

 

And the 5th column reflects the PEA cost of Bt4,795.80.   

 

So, if I understood her video/cost chart correctly she paid Bt10K to the charger installer plus another almost Bt4.8K to PEA for install of her charger which required a second circuit/meter.  Grand total approx Bt14.8K....ah heck, let's just call it Bt15K.

 

 

Snapshot from the video detailing the cost of a 2nd Circuit/Meter required for her charger installation. 

[Andrew Dwyer]

5 minutes ago, Pib said:

Andrew, Good rundown...thanks. 

 

Your costs were basically identical to this lady's installation costs in Chonburi.  Below snapshot is from her Youtube video on her install where she detailed the costs of "Running a 2nd Circuit + PEA Costs"....took pretty much all day in her case.  I expect installation at her residence was more complicated than yours.....each install will be different.   If Google Translate and I understood her video/cost chart correctly, here's a summary of costs:

 

The 1st column shows what parts/labor are included in a typical "Bt9,000 package" deal to install a 2nd circuit. 

 

The 2nd column gives more detail on the package deal.   

 

The 3rd column shows the installation cost "at her residence" which went Bt2,700 over the Bt9,000 package flat price adding up to Bt11,700 before she got a Bt1,700 with final price (parts and labor) for the 2nd circuit/charger install being Bt10,000.     But we haven't got to PEA costs yet.  

 

The 4th column is just a column reflecting "market retail" parts costs excluding any labor costs....just something to help show the package deal of the charger installer is a probably a good deal compared to open market (retail) price.

 

Now at this time PEA has "not" installed the 2nd meter or inspected the installation.....the installer just does a quick check of the charger installation by temporarily connecting to her currently installed meter (a.k.a., 1st circuit)   Once the charger is tested and its operation explained to the lady that temporarily connection is removed awaiting PEA to come out inspect the installation and install the 2nd meter.  

 

And the 5th column reflects the PEA cost of Bt4,795.80.   

 

So, if I understood her video/cost chart correctly she paid Bt10K to the charger installer plus another almost Bt4.8K to PEA for install of her charger which required a second circuit/meter.  Grand total approx Bt14.8K....ah heck, let's just call it Bt15K.

 

 

Snapshot from the video detailing the cost of a 2nd Circuit/Meter required for her charger installation. 

Yes, i forgot to mention that the wall charger installation crew (contracted by BYD) were very professional, knew exactly what each one had to do.
They temporarily energised the charger with an extension lead plugged into an existing external socket.

One guy explained it all to me, about creating a username, password etc and setting up the app.

 

“ Free vending “ means I don’t have to do any authentication ( using the supplied RFID card or authorise via the app) but means anyone can use the charger ….. and my electric …. should probably disable that !

 

The PEA “ inspector “, who came to check the installation, had the easiest job I have ever seen !

Left his pickup running in the middle of the soi, knowing he wouldn’t be more than 2 minutes, took some photos of existing meter, wall charger and the breakers told us to revisit PEA and hot footed it out of there.

 

Mine was 14,200 for both installs but will hopefully get that back soon with the cheap tariffs off peak, currently taking advantage of the weekend tariff.

 

Have tried the charging timer set in the car and it worked a treat with notifications on the BYD app giving a status and when charging stops all from the comfort of my bed !

 

 ABB app is also handy, keeps a running total of the costs although is a guesstimate so far until the 1st bill 

 

As we said before, there is a loss between charger and the car 7.2 kw to 6.4 kw, but it’s all good.

 

 

Ignore the Atto 3 photo on app and the range as it is fixed at NEDC (650 km on the Premium ) whereas in the car is Dynamic range setting and I have had above and below that figure when charging to 100 %.

[Pib]

51 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

 

Mine was 14,200 for both installs but will hopefully get that back soon with the cheap tariffs off peak, currently taking advantage of the weekend tariff.

 

 

Regarding savings related to EV fuel (electricity) vs ICEV fuel (fossil fuel) I made myself a spreadsheet to compare a variety of costs factors relating to driving my 2023 BYD Atto 3 BEV vs my 2009 Toyota Fortuner 3.0L Diesel ICEV.

 

Just today the wife asked me how much fuel money have we saved since getting the Atto on 25 Oct 2023 and since then driving  it 5,890 kilometers as of today/13 Jan 2024 instead of driving the Fortuner.   I did quick modification of my spreadsheet and showed her....see snapshot below.  

 

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

Deleted

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

10 hours ago, Pib said:

 

Regarding savings related to EV fuel (electricity) vs ICEV fuel (fossil fuel) I made myself a spreadsheet to compare a variety of costs factors relating to driving my 2023 BYD Atto 3 BEV vs my 2009 Toyota Fortuner 3.0L Diesel ICEV.

 

Just today the wife asked me how much fuel money have we saved since getting the Atto on 25 Oct 2023 and since then driving  it 5,890 kilometers as of today/13 Jan 2024 instead of driving the Fortuner.   I did quick modification of my spreadsheet and showed her....see snapshot below.  

 

 

Some rough calculations:

{ using household electricity at 5 baht per kw, TOU off peak at 3.5 baht per kw and gasohol 95 at 35 baht per litre }

My Seal gives me around 0.66 baht per km ( mainly granny charging) that should go down to 0.46 baht with the TOU

My Jolion gave me 2.0 baht per km .

 

So, my 2200 km in the Seal has cost me 1,452 baht or would have cost 4,400 baht in the Jolion, by the time I reach 9,240 km the TOU meter and installation will have paid for itself.

 

Or something like that 😀

[Gweiloman]

Most people don’t actually realise how much they are paying for fuel until they actually sit down and work it out. As there is no choice of whether to fuel or not, it’s just a matter of fill and go and not thinking about it.

 

It’s apparent that the fuel savings can mount up significantly as mentioned several times by @KhunLA. Doubly so if having solar. Does anyone know if there are smart chargers with solar divert for sale in Thailand?

[Bandersnatch]

5 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Does anyone know if there are smart chargers with solar divert for sale in Thailand?

 

I contacted myenergi in the UK about their zappi charger and they said they would ship it to Thailand for ฿40,000. 

 

It is a solar diverter like their Eddi hot water heater that monitors how much electricity you export back to the grid via ct clamps and sends the same amount of power into the car and if you have the eddi as well it will then heat the water up in your hot water tank.

 

Being off-grid it was no use to me. 

[JBChiangRai]

I would like to understand how a solar diverter charger works.

 

Is it possible to tell the car to vary the charge rate?  I understood once the initial handshake is done, it's not possible for the wallbox to tell the car to change the charge rate, but I may be wrong.

 

Or does the wallbox tell the car to stop charging and re-initialise with a new charging rate? If it stops the charging by forcing a fault (i.e. stopping charging by power cut off) then some cars won't re-initialise without removing the plug.

 

I made something using an under/over voltage cutoff contactor and then a changeover contactor to reverse the effect.  Charging begins at my set voltage (245v) and stops when it drops to another set voltage (230v).  Charging only starts when my grid-tied inverters are kicking out a good amount of current to the grid and consequently the voltage rises, charging then starts.  If a cloud crosses the sun, charging stops and starts again when the sun comers out again.  The flaw in this is that it cuts the power causing the car to see an error, some cars allow this a couple of times (German) others won't restart without removing the plugb (MGEP+/4).  I haven't tried the Seal yet.

 

The elegant way to do this would be to use a smart charger with OCPP communication and tell the charger to stop, and start again with a new current.

[Gweiloman]

8 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I would like to understand how a solar diverter charger works.

 

Is it possible to tell the car to vary the charge rate?  I understood once the initial handshake is done, it's not possible for the wallbox to tell the car to change the charge rate, but I may be wrong.

 

Or does the wallbox tell the car to stop charging and re-initialise with a new charging rate? If it stops the charging by forcing a fault (i.e. stopping charging by power cut off) then some cars won't re-initialise without removing the plug.

 

I made something using an under/over voltage cutoff contactor and then a changeover contactor to reverse the effect.  Charging begins at my set voltage (245v) and stops when it drops to another set voltage (230v).  Charging only starts when my grid-tied inverters are kicking out a good amount of current to the grid and consequently the voltage rises, charging then starts.  If a cloud crosses the sun, charging stops and starts again when the sun comers out again.  The flaw in this is that it cuts the power causing the car to see an error, some cars allow this a couple of times (German) others won't restart without removing the plugb (MGEP+/4).  I haven't tried the Seal yet.

 

The elegant way to do this would be to use a smart charger with OCPP communication and tell the charger to stop, and start again with a new current.

What you’ve done is completely over my head lol. I don’t know how a solar diverter would work but I imagine that it varies the current on the fly, depending on excess solar power generated. This would not be unlike charging at a DC fast charger which reduces the current as the battery starts filling up. In the case of the latter, I imagine the car is controlling how much power it can accept. In the former (solar diverter), I would imagine the charger controls the current being outputted.

 

You raise a good point about some vehicles not being able to stop and start charging without the charger being disconnected.

[Yellowtail]

10 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Most people don’t actually realise how much they are paying for fuel until they actually sit down and work it out. As there is no choice of whether to fuel or not, it’s just a matter of fill and go and not thinking about it.

 

It’s apparent that the fuel savings can mount up significantly as mentioned several times by @KhunLA. Doubly so if having solar. Does anyone know if there are smart chargers with solar divert for sale in Thailand?

 

A lot of people do know what they spend on fuel. A lot of people don't realize how hard it is to actually cost justify buying a new car based on fuel savings. This is what I spent in 2023 on fuel driving a 2016 2.8L Fortuner:

 

Even if I paid nothing for electricity, it would take almost 18 years to justify one million Baht to buy a new EV.

 

The average km per month I've drive since the car was new, is 1,086. That's about a THB3,120 spend per month for fuel.

 

Add another 2-3K twice a year for oil changes. 

 

Trying to use cost savings to justify buying a new vehicle makes little sense to me. 

 

 

 

 

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Even if I paid nothing for electricity, it would take almost 18 years to justify one million Baht to buy a new EV.

You don't need to justify the full cost of the EV, only the difference i cost between the ICE and EV, if any. 

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, sirineou said:

You don't need to justify the full cost of the EV, only the difference i cost between the ICE and EV, if any. 

Only if you need a new vehicle. 

 

I did run the numbers comparing the same model MG in ICE and EV versions and I think to offset the cost of the upcharge for the EV was about seven years if memory serves me correctly, and again, assuming the electricity is free. 

 

The best reason to buy a new car is because you want one. 

 

The best reason to buy an EV is because you want one. 

[sirineou]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I did run the numbers comparing the same model MG in ICE and EV versions and I think to offset the cost of the upcharge for the EV was about seven years if memory serves me correctly

The MG ZS EV is1,023,000 and the comparable MG ZS ice is  759,000  a difference of 264,000

using the numbers you provided  of 56,170 per year (which is below average but if we take your number  then it will take less than 4 years to offset the difference of 264,000 bht

[Yellowtail]

37 minutes ago, sirineou said:

The MG ZS EV is1,023,000 and the comparable MG ZS ice is  759,000  a difference of 264,000

using the numbers you provided  of 56,170 per year (which is below average but if we take your number  then it will take less than 4 years to offset the difference of 264,000 bht

Why do you claim 56,170 is below average? What is the average?

 

In any event, a 2.8-liter Fortuner burns significancy more fuel than for a MG ZS, so even with the extra cost of petrol vs diesel, the MG is much cheaper to fuel. 

 

And again, the numbers are based on getting electricity for free, which is not really possible unless you are stealing it. Even if you charge using only excess solar (not likely), you still have the cost of the solar installation to consider. 

 

I'm not knocking EVs, I am probably going to buy one in April, I just don't see the cost savings being as great as they seem. 

 

Of course, the more you drive, the more you would save. Before I retired, I was driving over 60,000km a year.

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

The MG ZS EV is1,023,000 and the comparable MG ZS ice is  759,000  a difference of 264,000

using the numbers you provided  of 56,170 per year (which is below average but if we take your number  then it will take less than 4 years to offset the difference of 264,000 bht

MG ZS EV is ฿859k again, and ฿949k when not discounted.

[Bandersnatch]

21 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I would like to understand how a solar diverter charger works.

 

You can use it like a regular charger or you can choose to use only the amount of power that would be have been exported.

 

I considered it as I used to charge my car in the middle of the day and wake up after my nap to find that the it had clouded over and I had drained my house batteries into my car.

 

Now I just wait until it gets dark (My inverters priority setting is Solar First, Then Utility, Then Battery) and power the house from the Seal for a few hours.

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

7 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

And again, the numbers are based on getting electricity for free, which is not really possible unless you are stealing it. Even if you charge using only excess solar (not likely), you still have the cost of the solar installation to consider. 

 

The thing about solar in Thailand is that you get abundant power in the middle of the day. So if you installed a small solar system like 5kW, your house is probably only using about 1kW per hour but in the middle hours of the day you will be getting close to an 4 extra kW. 

 

My AWD performance EV (not the most efficient EV) can travel 7km/kWh (580km range from a 82.5kWh battery) 

 

You drove 50km/day last year so you need only 7kWh per day.

 

So yes the power for your EV is free if you installed solar for your house 

 

 

[sirineou]

7 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why do you claim 56,170 is below average? What is the average?

I understand the point you are trying to make and I am not entirely opposed to it . I  simply challenging your methodology. 

I did a search on Google for the average mileage driven per year in Thailand. I Didn't find any official statistics but  there were many reports in this forum of 20-25k per year , which seems to be in line with our driving also, so based on that your 18K seemed to be on the low side. 

other than that I used your numbers, If you thought that the fortuner is a guzzler  you should not had used that for an example, 

But regardless, for you, those would be the numbers .

I am not saying that you basic premise is wrong , I  am challenging your assumption that you need to consider the full price of the EV in your calculations, but rather the difference between an ICE and an EV ,  

And that your calculations were a bit on the high side. 

I would also not buy an EV right now, though I am tempted. For us, at this point, an EV would be as a second vehicle. We like to drive  long distances around Thailand, and the EV range and charging times would make that difficult.  

But when it is time for our 2 year old seven seater to be replaced we will seriously consider getting an EV.  I have an old pickup truck that i use to play around at the farm.  We were thinking that perhaps ,when it comes time to replace vehicles we get a new  extended cab  pickup truck,( I like a 4 door but their bed is so small) and a small EV for around town, but who knows by then the range issue might have improved, (I hear reports of 1,000 kn range in the pipeline) 

   90% of our driving, perhaps more, is around town and no more that 30 km from home,  Aside from all the other benefits. A small EV  would eliminate  90% plus of our fuel consumption. 

   IMO for anyone who owns a house and an EV would be a good idea to  have a small solar cell installation .

At our farm we had a solar cell installed to run the well pump. I don't remember exactly how much it cost but it was  not more than 40k . I am sure it is less now as prices seem to go down.  

 As I briefly mentioned above . the benefits of an EV are not limited to fuel consumption, of course we have the reduction in pollution. but also the simplicity of the system that eliminates costly maintenance and repairs. 

Anyway right or wrong, that's my thinking on the subject.

 

PS: for the benefits I forgot to mention that in the event of a blackout , you can also run your house with most EVs, try doing this with my , or your ICE vehicle 

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

 As I briefly mentioned above . the benefits of an EV are not limited to fuel consumption, of course we have the reduction in pollution. but also the simplicity of the system that eliminates costly maintenance and repairs. 

Anyway right or wrong, that's my thinking on the subject.

 

For me the biggest benefit is the way it drives.  It's a pleasure to be able to drive in silence, have the power to never get stuck behind any trucks or buses and arrive after a long drive as fresh as a daisy.