Friday 13th: Instructor shot dead at rifle range - beginner student thought it wasn't a live round

[RJRS1301]

6 minutes ago, Burma Bill said:

Yes indeed.

What I ask is why does a 50 year old lady take firearms training with a Glock 19 handgun??

so that her bothersome husband remains in line

[Mac Mickmanus]

Will she be applying for a refund of her lesson fees ?

[RJRS1301]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Will she be applying for a refund of her lesson fees ?

Collecting her certificate of competence as we type I suspect. She hit something .

 

[Bluespunk]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

She said she thought that it was a dummy round after picking up a bullet mixed with others on the floor,

She loaded the gun with bullets that were lying on the floor?

[RocketDog]

6 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

My guess is it was due to being shot. 

You sure?

A shoulder wound getting immediate attention proved fatal?

There were other factors involved. Nobody dies

6 hours ago, webfact said:

found 37 year old Charnchai Lunseup from Phetchabun unconscious after being shot in the shoulder with a 9 mm gun

of a shoulder wound unless they bleed out, especially a young man.

[RJRS1301]

13 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

You sure?

A shoulder wound getting immediate attention proved fatal?

There were other factors involved. Nobody dies

of a shoulder wound unless they bleed out, especially a young man.

Must have got an artery

[Road Warrior]

what a" dummy" reason thought the gun had a dummy round !! 

[allanos]

The lady in question doesn't sound to be a rank amateur if she was

able to eject the magazine, place the live round in it, replace the

magazine in the pistol, jack the bullet up into the chamber, and fire it. 

 

In my view, it makes her conduct even more puzzling.

 

It is possible that the instructor died from the shock of sudden

blood loss.

 

 

[KhaoYai]

The one thing that shocked me when I joined a gun club in Thailand, was that none of the handguns (Glock's) owned by the club were fitted with traditional safety catches.  No idea if a safety catch would have prevented this accident but it might have - depends on the exact circumstances.  I would say though, that my club is very big on safety. If you do anything even slightly wrong, the culture there is that other members - as well as instructors will immediately alert you.

 

I'm not a gun expert and have little experience with handguns but I've used rifles regulary outside All of the rifles I've used have had saftey catches.

 

I've read Glock's explanations as to why its products don't have an actual safety catch - they claim they have 3 other safety mechanisms.  As fas as I can see, none of those mechanisms would prevent an accidental discharge in a tutorial situation.

[thailand49]

They might also check how many lessons has she had?  Sounds like one if more then check the former students of this instructor sadly it could be he wasn't very Good? 

R. I. P. 

[kennw]

7 hours ago, darksidedog said:

I guess the instructor never told her the very first rule of never pointing a gun at anyone, whether it is loaded or not.

The first rule is NEVER place your finger inside the trigger guard until you are ready to fire at the target.

[brucegoniners]

The Dick Cheney syndrome...

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, inThailand said:

Like most professionals here, did the instructor have any training? Incomplete training? Safety training? Or bad training? A taxi driver turned to be an instructor? 

'Captain' isn't usually a title for an ex taxi driver.

Dummy rounds were being used and she picked up a round from the floor. Is it possible the round came from an incorrect 'clearing' of a hand gun from previously, ie, operate the slide forgetting to remove the magazine and a live round hits the floor among all the old casings. Whoever did it didn't want to admit it so leaves the round on the floor. Up to that point she had only been given dummy rounds to play with so assumes the one on the floor is the same as the dummy rounds. 

I've seen nervous types close their eyes and turn their head before 'jerking' the trigger and the round going into the floor 4 metres in front of them.

 

[Cake Monster]

7 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

I own handguns. I shoot IDPA and have been to many ranges with many instructors, and never have I used or even seen a "dummy" round. The gun is either loaded or it's not. Your job is to know which it is. Why would this even happen? This confusion about the round being live or not. Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

As an Instructor for a Club in the UK, and fully trained by the NSRA, and registered as an Instructor by  them , I can only blame the " Instructor " here on this Range for his own sloppy and Dangerous practices.

" Picked up a round off the Floor, and did not know if it as a  dummy or not "

It does not get any more incompetent than this.

It is not a Novice Shooters job to know which rounds are live, and which are not,... Its the Instructors Job, and duty of care to himself and all Range users.

He is there to supervise the person over all Safety issues on the Range, and correct procedures are to be used at all times, and this includes the supervision of the Loading and clearance of the Weapon being used, and correct Ammunition accountability.

I would suggest this Guy paid for his own stupidity with his life.

[Jimbo53]

7 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Because she’s a halfwit?

I wouldn't give her that much!!!

[hansnl]

8 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

I own handguns. I shoot IDPA and have been to many ranges with many instructors, and never have I used or even seen a "dummy" round. The gun is either loaded or it's not. Your job is to know which it is. Why would this even happen? This confusion about the round being live or not. Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

If you are an instructor you should always be aware and in control of the man/woman you give instruction to.

Other instructors should learn from this.

 

[KannikaP]

23 minutes ago, Cake Monster said:

I would suggest this Guy is stripped of " Instructors " Duty without any delay.

He already has been.........................with his life

[Arkady]

8 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

I own handguns. I shoot IDPA and have been to many ranges with many instructors, and never have I used or even seen a "dummy" round. The gun is either loaded or it's not. Your job is to know which it is. Why would this even happen? This confusion about the round being live or not. Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

Sor Ror Phor, the military range in Lardplakhao that trains VIP protection guards and has civilian members for its courses, does training with dummy rounds. These are used for training with semi auto pistols. What happens is that the instructor loads your magazine with a dummy round somewhere without letting you see where it is in the mag.  The idea is the gun won't shoot when you hit the dummy and you have to clear it.  So it is training for clearing malfunctions. But to do these semi auto courses you have to pass the basic revolver course and you know the basics of gun safety already.  Also the instructors never stand in front of the students in dry firing drills or drills with dummy rounds which may be what happened here.  Like you I have never seen dummy rounds used in training anywhere in Thailand other than at Sor Ror Phor, which is rather unique, and I have done a lot of IDPA, IPSC and other handgun courses in country.

[roo860]

I use a range in Chiang Mai, the amount of holes in the tin roof at the firing point is unbelievable. 

I only use when no students are present.

[Moonlover]

4 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

And the unfortunate victim who somehow got in front of a gun…at a gun range … huge no no. ????

heart attack from shock ? Nobody dies from a 9 mm round to the shoulder! it surely must have deflected to heart ? A 7.62 or 50 cal hit is certainly possible to kill though, anywhere , from massive kinetic energy. 

 

There are a number of veins and arteries running to and through the shoulder, chief among them the brachial artery. Sever any one of them, especially the brachial artery and you can bleed out very quickly.

 

In the early 80s a lone Army undercover officer took down 3 IRA terrorists, all tooled up with armalites who had laid an ambush for him in Londonderry. His only weapon was a 9mm Browning, the standard side arm back then.

 

Never underestimate the ability of any weapon.

[Arkady]

A tragic accident but it is not at all clear from the news articles and TV clips exactly what happened.  Unfortunately, as usual in Thailand, all the reports have the same wording as the police press release which starts, "On 13 May at 11.30 hours Pol. L/Cpl Somchai received a call about an accident at 333 range...."  So there has been no independent reporting on the incident. It is not clear if the instructor was standing in front of the students and getting them to do dry firing drills with dummy rounds or not but it sound as if that may sadly be the case.  If so, a massive breach of gun safety rules and common sense.

 

I am a member of the 333 Rangsit range but I mainly use the 200 yard rifle range.  I have shot IDPA matches there and most the ranges there are 25 metre ranges used for IDPA and IPSC matches and training, as well as beginner courses like this one.  In IDPA and IPSC when you finish your stage, you are asked to "show clear" which means you remove the magazine from a semi auto pistol and rack back the slide to show the official there is no round in the chamber.  This unfortunately results in a large number of live rounds ejected on the ground.  You try to either catch your round or pick it up from the ground but often they are hard to see and you have to move on quickly to verify your scores on the targets. 

 

Most dummies used in Thailand are the A-Zoom brand which are are made of aluminium and colored burgundy or blue, so as to be easily distinguishable from live rounds.  They are also dummies that long like full metal jacket live rounds with a brass case and a copper nose but colored red on the head stamp or where the primer would go on a live round to distinguish them. The idea of these is that they are exactly the same weight as live rounds but they are not really very safe because they look so much like live rounds that an accident like this one could happen.  However, I have never seen anyone selling or using this type of dummy in Thailand. (I have also never seen an instructor using dummy rounds other than at Sor Ror Phor as mentioned in the post above).  At any rate, the rounds mainly used in practice ranges and in IDPA/IPSC in Thailand look quite different as they cheaper lead nosed bullets not FMJ copper nosed like those dummies.  However a few competitive shooters use copper nosed bullets in Thailand.  So it is just possible, although extremely unlikely, that they were doing dry firing drills with copper nosed dummy and the student happened to chance upon a live copper nosed round on the ground that she mistook for a copper nosed dummy she had just ejected from her Glock. 

 

The  above scenario seems a one in a thousand chance or less.  So I expect the story put out by the police is either unfactual or the there was extreme stupidity exercised either the instructor or the student or both.  I have heard of other range accidents that were less serious where a story was concocted before the police arrived to protect everyone. Maybe this happened here too. We may never know. 

 

RIP instructor Capt Charnchai.  So sad for his family and Miss Tacha will have to live with this for the rest of her life.

[LukKrueng]

8 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

I own handguns. I shoot IDPA and have been to many ranges with many instructors, and never have I used or even seen a "dummy" round. The gun is either loaded or it's not. Your job is to know which it is. Why would this even happen? This confusion about the round being live or not. Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

In Thailand they refer to the copper plated bullets as live or operation bullets, and the uncoated as training bullets. I assume the dummy is a mistranslation. I guess the reason is that the coated bullets are more expensive and therefore you wouldn't want to water them for training...

That said, as far as I'm concerned there are only 2 rules in regards to guns:

1. If you don't know how to handle one, don't touch it.

2. Never ever aim a gun at anyone or anything you don't intend to shoot at. Not even a toy gun.

 

"Training" bullets...

 

Real bullet...

 

[SomchaiCNX]

Not surprised, to many cowboys on shooting ranges. 

[Sydebolle]

So, and what exactly is the autopsy for? Just wondering .......... did he die from a shot or a shock over the way his "student" is handling the Glock? 

[LukKrueng]

8 minutes ago, Arkady said:

A tragic accident but it is not at all clear from the news articles and TV clips exactly what happened.  Unfortunately, as usual in Thailand, all the reports have the same wording as the police press release which starts, "On 13 May at 11.30 hours Pol. L/Cpl Somchai received a call about an accident at 333 range...."  So there has been no independent reporting on the incident. It is not clear if the instructor was standing in front of the students and getting them to do dry firing drills with dummy rounds or not but it sound as if that may sadly be the case.  If so, a massive breach of gun safety rules and common sense.

 

I am a member of the 333 Rangsit range but I mainly use the 200 yard rifle range.  I have shot IDPA matches there and most the ranges there are 25 metre ranges used for IDPA and IPSC matches and training, as well as beginner courses like this one.  In IDPA and IPSC when you finish your stage, you are asked to "show clear" which means you remove the magazine from a semi auto pistol and rack back the slide to show the official there is no round in the chamber.  This unfortunately results in a large number of live rounds ejected on the ground.  You try to either catch your round or pick it up from the ground but often they are hard to see and you have to move on quickly to verify your scores on the targets. 

 

Most dummies used in Thailand are the A-Zoom brand which are are made of aluminium and colored burgundy or blue, so as to be easily distinguishable from live rounds.  They are also dummies that long like full metal jacket live rounds with a brass case and a copper nose but colored red on the head stamp or where the primer would go on a live round to distinguish them. The idea of these is that they are exactly the same weight as live rounds but they are not really very safe because they look so much like live rounds that an accident like this one could happen.  However, I have never seen anyone selling or using this type of dummy in Thailand. (I have also never seen an instructor using dummy rounds other than at Sor Ror Phor as mentioned in the post above).  At any rate, the rounds mainly used in practice ranges and in IDPA/IPSC in Thailand look quite different as they cheaper lead nosed bullets not FMJ copper nosed like those dummies.  However a few competitive shooters use copper nosed bullets in Thailand.  So it is just possible, although extremely unlikely, that they were doing dry firing drills with copper nosed dummy and the student happened to chance upon a live copper nosed round on the ground that she mistook for a copper nosed dummy she had just ejected from her Glock. 

 

The  above scenario seems a one in a thousand chance or less.  So I expect the story put out by the police is either unfactual or the there was extreme stupidity exercised either the instructor or the student or both.  I have heard of other range accidents that were less serious where a story was concocted before the police arrived to protect everyone. Maybe this happened here too. We may never know.  But RIP instructor.

Any person who stands IN FRONT of another person holding and aiming a gun at him is not an instructor in my books

[Jonathan Swift]

8 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

I own handguns. I shoot IDPA and have been to many ranges with many instructors, and never have I used or even seen a "dummy" round. The gun is either loaded or it's not. Your job is to know which it is. Why would this even happen? This confusion about the round being live or not. Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

Yeah, hard to fathom. We've had quite the prime time news education about "dummy rounds" being exclusive to Hollywood/Production propmasters as the only reason for them to exist, per the Alec Baldwin tragedy. As I may say elsewhere, one wonders at what kind of bad luck would cause a shoulder injury to be fatal. My guess would be a severed subclavian artery which is almost directly from the heart and arches across each shoulder. That would bleed out fast. Imagine now how the shooter has to live with this. But as you insinuate, the safety protocols you and I know were likely not the standard here. 

[Gandtee]

8 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

I own handguns. I shoot IDPA and have been to many ranges with many instructors, and never have I used or even seen a "dummy" round. The gun is either loaded or it's not. Your job is to know which it is. Why would this even happen? This confusion about the round being live or not. Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

Or maybe the instructor was not up to the mark? Rounds on the floor? Are we coming back to the 'safety issues' again in Thailand ?

 

[Tropposurfer]

8 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

I own handguns. I shoot IDPA and have been to many ranges with many instructors, and never have I used or even seen a "dummy" round. The gun is either loaded or it's not. Your job is to know which it is. Why would this even happen? This confusion about the round being live or not. Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

The dummy is the instructor - IF there was some so-called "dummy round" ????  Maybe this "dummy round" was  colour coded blank used to explain and demonstrate the ejection and jamming processes and how to clear the weapons breach and the port if jammed? How was it the instructor allowed the newby to turn and face the instructor with live rounds in the breach (should be standing behind the person holding the weapon at all times.

[Derek B]

So sad for everyone involved.....................

 

 

[Jonathan Swift]

A Glock 19. An American movie staple and icon. Widely used by citizens, police, and criminals in the US, I don't know about other countries. One can only guess where and to what extent universal gun safety protocols were not followed. Where she got the idea that "dummy rounds" would be present at a gun range, or why she would know and use the term, can only be from media, perhaps from the Alec Baldwin case, and if so much of that story was not understood (language barrier?). Perhaps what she meant was blanks, the press might have mistranslated from Thai. Either way, neither would, or should, be present at a gun range. The American version of this thing is when an instructor handed a full auto machine gun to an 8 year old who could not control it and killed HIS instructor. Yup, Americans can go to gun ranges and shoot machine guns. even 8 year olds. I'm not anti-gun per se, but there are too many careless idiots in the world for there not to be a price paid for gun freedoms.