Jan. 6 committee says probe shows Trump led and directed effort to overturn 2020 election

nauseus · June 12, 2022

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Not just the President.

Members of Congress and the Senate are also sworn to uphold the US Constitution and it’s enemies, against all enemies foreign and domestic.

So who knew what and when did they know it.

Let’s start with those begging for pardons.

Finally. Thankyou. But congress members with the power to order security were not looking for pardons.

ozimoron · June 12, 2022

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Not a dodge. If you mean the prime time Kangaroo Court Show then yes.

It's not claiming to be any court or issuing any judgement. It's doing nothing other than revealing evidence and explaining what that evidence means. The republicans had a chance to participate meaningfully but nominated their most guilty for the job and for that reason they were rightfully rejected., then they refused participation at all. Cheney and Kinzinger nominated themselves.

nauseus · June 12, 2022

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It's not claiming to be any court or issuing any judgement. It's doing nothing other than revealing evidence and explaining what that evidence means. The republicans had a chance to participate meaningfully but nominated their most guilty for the job and for that reason they were rightfully rejected., then they refused participation at all. Cheney and Kinzinger nominated themselves.

Really? Regarding Republican participation, I can't find any news or information to match what you say.

KanchanaburiGuy · June 12, 2022

2 hours ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Quite correct so it all depends on the context and situation. When a coach tells his sports team to go out there and fight like hell we all know what he means.

But when a sitting president falsely claims the election was stolen and he urges his most ardent supporters (all fired up and not exactly mental giants) to march on the Capitol and fight like hell I'd say the chances of them taking his words literally are a solid 100%. Which they did, and people died.

Get it now?

Hmmm. You're getting pretty heavy into convenient interpretation, here.

For example......... Yes, when a coach tells his team to go out and "fight like hell," we all know what he means. It means, Try your hardest and don't give the other guys a chance. It DOESN'T mean..........

Go over to the other team's bench or locker room, and beat the bejeezus out of them!

But as you assess what TRUMP said, suddenly you DO think those word mean (metaphorically)........

DO go over to the other team's bench or locker room, and beat the bejeezus out of them!

-----------------

See, there's really no reason to believe that Trump meant it any differently than how a coach would............ "We're in a fight. The victory can still be ours. So don't give up now!"

And even the encouragement to march to the Capitol.......... has a reasonable explanation.

"There are people who need to hear your voices. They are there, and we are here. So you need to go to where they can hear you!" How he actually said it, I'm not sure. But whatever he said, how do you know that THIS is not what he meant?

There was no call to violence. There was no encouragement to riot. He never told them they needed to go INSIDE the Capitol!

He just encouraged them to go TO the Capitol! And that isn't necessarily any more sinister than saying, "Go to where your voices can be heard!"

-----------

Like many things in life, if you're determined to cling to a bad take on things, you can almost always find a way to do so.

I loathe Trump. I'd love it if I never had to say anything that sounds like I'm defending him. I think Trump receiving the Republican Nomination in 2016 was the single biggest act of political stupidity in the last hundred years!

BUT!

I'm never going to let my loathing for him cloud my judgment. If there are reasonable explanations and outrageous ones, I'm going to give him the same credit for the reasonable explanations that I'd give anyone else, until proven otherwise!

But what I see from so many others is their hatred on full display. They jump straight to the outrageous explanations........... and pretend that reasonable explanations simply don't exist!

I can't do that.

No matter how much I loathe the man, I STILL can't deny him the benefit-of-the-doubt. I simply cannot pretend there is no doubt....... like we see so many doing........... when I can come up with at least a dozen reasonable explanations......... that show there are!

Yes, when a coach says to "fight like hell," we know what that means. But more importantly, we also know what that DOESN'T mean!

Automatically assuming Trump meant something different because he's Trump........... is just wrong!

Cheers!

ozimoron · June 12, 2022

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Really? Regarding Republican participation, I can't find any news or information to match what you say.

Pelosi rejects GOP picks Jordan, Banks on Jan. 6 committee; McCarthy threatens to pull out

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/21/pelosi-rejects-republicans-banks-jordan-jan-6-select-committee/8042839002/

"Was it Clyde? Gosar? Gaetz? Jordan? Boebert? Greene? Others? Please remind us @HouseGOP - which of your current sitting members sought pardons after the attack? In addition to @RepScottPerry of course,"

https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-january-6-pardon-clemency-requests-democratic-reactions-social-media-1714785

Cheney hasn’t named names … yet … but we already have a pretty good idea who those multiple other congressmen might be: House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California and Reps. Jim Jordan of Ohio, Mo Brooks of Alabama and yep, Andy Biggs.

“Unless Speaker Pelosi reverses course and seats all five Republican nominees, Republicans will not be party to their sham process and will instead pursue our own investigation of the facts," McCarthy said in a statement on Wednesday afternoon.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/21/pelosi-rejects-republicans-banks-jordan-jan-6-select-committee/8042839002/

The accusations, however, are to some degree disingenuous: it was McCarthy who pulled all Republican participation, incensed at Pelosi’s refusals, rather than name different members

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/27/kevin-mccarthy-refuses-capitol-attack-subpoena

House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy sent a letter via his lawyer to the House select committee investigating the January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol, outlining why he will not comply with his subpoena as it stands and delivering a list of demands in order to move forward.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/27/politics/kevin-mccarthy-january-6-subpoena/index.html

ozimoron · June 12, 2022

Ocasio-Cortez says Republicans who were ‘in on’ Capitol riot shouldn’t be on Jan. 6 committee

“We need a Select Committee to investigate the Jan. 6th domestic terrorist attack. But we must also be careful about any Republicans that may serve on the committee. There are indications that some of these folks were in on it, & we can’t have them be a part of the investigation,” Ocasio-Cortez wrote on Twitter.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/561102-ocasio-cortez-says-republicans-who-were-in-on-capitol-riot-shouldnt-be-on-jan/

KanchanaburiGuy · June 12, 2022

9 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Hasn’t worked for the convictions already secured.

Cheers!

I apologize. Perhaps I haven't been paying close enough attention.

What were the names of the protestors/rioters who were convicted of threatening the Vice President, again?

And were they "convicted".......... or did they reach a plea agreement?

(Sorry for my skepticism, but you're saying "it hasn't worked." But I'm pretty sure there hasn't even been a charge like that, yet. But again, maybe I just haven't been paying attention!.........

????????????)

Cheers!

ozimoron · June 12, 2022

26 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

I apologize. Perhaps I haven't been paying close enough attention.

What were the names of the protestors/rioters who were convicted of threatening the Vice President, again?

And were they "convicted".......... or did they reach a plea agreement?

(Sorry for my skepticism, but you're saying "it hasn't worked." But I'm pretty sure there hasn't even been a charge like that, yet. But again, maybe I just haven't been paying attention!.........

????????????)

Cheers!

Did you not see and hear videos of dozens, if not hundreds, of the rioters shouting 'hang Pence"? Is this just part of the wilful ignorance campaign? What relevance is it that individuals were not identified and convicted?

In video showed Wednesday at Trump’s second impeachment trial, rioters chanted “Hang Mike Pence!” and “Bring out Pence!” as they roamed the halls searching for the former vice president and other lawmakers. Outside, the mob set up a makeshift gallows on the field near the Capitol.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-video-shows-capitol-mob-calling-for-the-death-of-the-vice-president-plaskett-says

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/12/trump-capitol-attack-rioters-mike-pence

Trump said it was 'common sense' for Capitol rioters to chant 'Hang Mike Pence'

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/11/12/donald-trump-rioters-chanting-hang-mike-pence-common-sense/8594353002/

Was ‘Hang Mike Pence’ Chanted at Capitol Riot?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hang-mike-pence-chant-capitol-riot/

https://www.audacy.com/1010wins/news/politics/video-pro-trump-mob-chants-hang-mike-pence

Edited June 12, 2022 by ozimoron

nauseus · June 12, 2022

55 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Pelosi rejects GOP picks Jordan, Banks on Jan. 6 committee; McCarthy threatens to pull out

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/21/pelosi-rejects-republicans-banks-jordan-jan-6-select-committee/8042839002/

"Was it Clyde? Gosar? Gaetz? Jordan? Boebert? Greene? Others? Please remind us @HouseGOP - which of your current sitting members sought pardons after the attack? In addition to @RepScottPerry of course,"

https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-january-6-pardon-clemency-requests-democratic-reactions-social-media-1714785

Cheney hasn’t named names … yet … but we already have a pretty good idea who those multiple other congressmen might be: House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California and Reps. Jim Jordan of Ohio, Mo Brooks of Alabama and yep, Andy Biggs.

“Unless Speaker Pelosi reverses course and seats all five Republican nominees, Republicans will not be party to their sham process and will instead pursue our own investigation of the facts," McCarthy said in a statement on Wednesday afternoon.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/21/pelosi-rejects-republicans-banks-jordan-jan-6-select-committee/8042839002/

The accusations, however, are to some degree disingenuous: it was McCarthy who pulled all Republican participation, incensed at Pelosi’s refusals, rather than name different members

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/27/kevin-mccarthy-refuses-capitol-attack-subpoena

House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy sent a letter via his lawyer to the House select committee investigating the January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol, outlining why he will not comply with his subpoena as it stands and delivering a list of demands in order to move forward.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/27/politics/kevin-mccarthy-january-6-subpoena/index.html

No wonder McCarthy got the hump. Pelosi being so democratic. 555.

nauseus · June 12, 2022

55 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Ocasio-Cortez says Republicans who were ‘in on’ Capitol riot shouldn’t be on Jan. 6 committee

“We need a Select Committee to investigate the Jan. 6th domestic terrorist attack. But we must also be careful about any Republicans that may serve on the committee. There are indications that some of these folks were in on it, & we can’t have them be a part of the investigation,” Ocasio-Cortez wrote on Twitter.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/561102-ocasio-cortez-says-republicans-who-were-in-on-capitol-riot-shouldnt-be-on-jan/

Can’t have this, can’t have that, can’t have anyone who might ask questions we don't like. Hopeless.

ozimoron · June 12, 2022

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Can’t have this, can’t have that, can’t have anyone who might ask questions we don't like. Hopeless.

How about "the accused can't be on the jury"? McCarthy was subpoenaed by the committee..

Did you read AOC's comments?

Edited June 12, 2022 by ozimoron

pomchop · June 12, 2022

Hear no evil see no evil.

Of course trump never ever had any intention of trying to encourage his cult , or Pence, to impede the official certification of the vote and of course he never ever tried to twist any arms to have states like Georgia "find" him more votes...and of course he never repeats ad nauseum with zero proof to this day that the election was stolen continuing to stir the pot of crazies...and he never ever inflated values of his property for bank loans and then deflated the value when it came tax time....He has convinced his cult members that he would never ever violate any laws.

Old legal idiom: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is most likely a duck.

GrandPapillon · June 12, 2022

we need more people like Trump, let's hope he is re-elected, pardon everyone on the January 6th incident, and put Biden in jail for being a boring wa*nker ????

Jingthing · June 12, 2022

18 minutes ago, pomchop said:

Hear no evil see no evil.

Of course trump never ever had any intention of trying to encourage his cult , or Pence, to impede the official certification of the vote and of course he never ever tried to twist any arms to have states like Georgia "find" him more votes...and of course he never repeats ad nauseum with zero proof to this day that the election was stolen continuing to stir the pot of crazies...and he never ever inflated values of his property for bank loans and then deflated the value when it came tax time....He has convinced his cult members that he would never ever violate any laws.

Old legal idiom: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is most likely a duck.

The committee isn't a court.

But they are setting the table.

Donald John Trump is clearly GUILTY of conspiracy to defraud the United States just based on overwhelming evidence of the pressure he was putting on Mike Pence to overturn the election.

FELONY. It doesn't need to be complicated,. They don't need a smoking gun on the insurrection riot conspiracy (they use encrypted apps so not likely to find).

They don't need ten indictments with ten convictions.

One FELONY one will do the job. He's an old man. Such a conviction puts him out of the picture (but not his allied politicians or cult followers).

This is coming down to a political decision for Garland.

Perhaps the most important such decision in American history.

It is not customary to lay criminal charges on former presidents.

He will face a lot of pressure to do so after the committee finishes.

If he proceeds I'm assuming he will know a conviction is almost definite.

Will that spark civil war? Maybe.

But we may be headed for civil war and / or the end of democracy anyway.

They haven't managed to change the laws that would have made the 2020 coup possible so it will likely happen again.

If Garland acts, at least for the sake of history, an effort will have been made.

More than can be said for Joe Manchin.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Jingthing

Chomper Higgot · June 12, 2022

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Finally. Thankyou. But congress members with the power to order security were not looking for pardons.

My guess is just the ones that aided and abetted the insurrection.

Stay tuned, all will be revealed.

candide · June 12, 2022

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Finally. Thankyou. But congress members with the power to order security were not looking for pardons.

Which Congress members had the power to order security? I could not find any reliable source about it?

Chomper Higgot · June 12, 2022

1 hour ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

I apologize. Perhaps I haven't been paying close enough attention.

What were the names of the protestors/rioters who were convicted of threatening the Vice President, again?

And were they "convicted".......... or did they reach a plea agreement?

(Sorry for my skepticism, but you're saying "it hasn't worked." But I'm pretty sure there hasn't even been a charge like that, yet. But again, maybe I just haven't been paying attention!.........

????????????)

Cheers!

I see you slipped a ‘threatening the Vice President’ in there.

Conspiracy to sedition does not necessarily require a threat to the Vice President.

The courts have accepted the guilty pleas on ‘Seditious Conspiracy’ of two ‘Oath Keepers’.

Brian Ulrich and Joshua James now await sentencing.

More to come, stay tuned.

Cheers!

Jingthing · June 12, 2022

Whether Mr. Trump is eventually indicted or not, just imagine how he is feeling now. There is no doubt that he knows that there is ample evidence to send him to prison and the decision to proceed is on one man. If he isn't quaking in his golf shoes he isn't paying attention.

Scratch that. It isn't only one man. The state of Georgia could get him on the infamous (find me the votes) phone call.

I find the people still saying there is nothing to nail him on hilarious. There is plenty to nail him on. The problem is having the political cajones to actually do it.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Jingthing

TallGuyJohninBKK · June 12, 2022

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The courts have accepted the guilty pleas on ‘Seditious Conspiracy’ of two ‘Oath Keepers’.

Brian Ulrich and Joshua James now await sentencing.

It's up to THREE of them now... not two

Third Oath Keepers defendant pleads guilty to sedition in Capitol riot case

William Todd Wilson, a 44-year-old military and law enforcement veteran, has agreed to cooperate with authorities

WASHINGTON — A North Carolina member of the Oath Keepers pleaded guilty on Wednesday to seditious conspiracy and obstruction of an official proceeding in connection with the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.

William Todd Wilson, a 44-year-old former leader of the Sampson County chapter of the far-right militia group, is the third Oath Keeper to admit to seditious conspiracy. Joshua James and Brian Ulrich pleaded guilty to the charge earlier this year and agreed to cooperate with the government.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/third-oath-keepers-defendant-pleads-guilty-sedition-capitol-riot-case-rcna27294

Chomper Higgot · June 12, 2022

The hearings will not convince hardline pro-Trump of anything, they will cement the views of those who oppose Trump but neither of these groups will decide the next election.

The target audience is the middle between these two opposed groups.

Revealing to this large and electorally important body of the public what happened on Jan 6, who organized, funded the attack, who was responsible from top to bottom.

Importantly explaining, with evidence, that this was an organized, funded seditious attack on the Democracy of the United States.

People with their thumbs stuffed in their ears while screaming to drown out truth and facts don’t matter, they aren’t going to listen, they don’t care, they are offended by the exposure of the lies they’ve swallowed and they are far out numbered by the moderate middle.

Chomper Higgot · June 12, 2022

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

It's up to THREE of them now... not two

Third Oath Keepers defendant pleads guilty to sedition in Capitol riot case

William Todd Wilson, a 44-year-old military and law enforcement veteran, has agreed to cooperate with authorities

WASHINGTON — A North Carolina member of the Oath Keepers pleaded guilty on Wednesday to seditious conspiracy and obstruction of an official proceeding in connection with the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.

William Todd Wilson, a 44-year-old former leader of the Sampson County chapter of the far-right militia group, is the third Oath Keeper to admit to seditious conspiracy. Joshua James and Brian Ulrich pleaded guilty to the charge earlier this year and agreed to cooperate with the government.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/third-oath-keepers-defendant-pleads-guilty-sedition-capitol-riot-case-rcna27294

Thank you, but actually it only needed to be one to prove the fallacy I was addressing.

And there’s more to come.

TallGuyJohninBKK · June 12, 2022

4 hours ago, onthedarkside said:

during which approximately 10,000 people came onto Capitol grounds, with many engaging in violent clashes with officers trying to protect the building and lawmakers inside. At least 2,000 made it inside the Capitol building.

Interesting, the following May 5 report from NBC News has an even larger number involved...

"More than 2,500 people are believed to have entered the Capitol on Jan. 6, while hundreds more committed crimes outside."

And it included the following other interesting updates:

"a former New York City Police officer who assaulted a D.C. police officer on the day of the riot was found guilty by a jury, a former QAnon supporter from Pennsylvania who helped assault law enforcement officers with a giant "Trump" sign pleaded guilty, and a former Marine who kicked an officer was sentenced to more than two years in federal prison."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/third-oath-keepers-defendant-pleads-guilty-sedition-capitol-riot-case-rcna27294

Seems like a fair number of ex military and ex law enforcement types were involved in this... along with a lot of people who after the fact turned out to have had histories of various mental problems, having been on medications, etc etc.

Such as, among others, the infamous QAnon shaman and his horned helmet:

"The Phoenix man, who suffers from mental illness, and who had subscribed to the bogus “QAnon” conspiracy theory, pleaded guilty Sept. 3 to obstructing a proceeding of Congress, one of six criminal counts he faced when he was indicted."

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/30/qanon-shaman-jacob-chansley-appeals-conviction-in-trump-capitol-riot-case.html

And then there's another kind of illness as well:

"The attorney for another Capitol riot defendant named Anthony Antonio blamed his alleged actions January 6 on watching too much FOX News Network during another court hearing in May. That attorney said his client had fallen victim to “Foxitis.”

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/national/capitol-riots/qanon-shaman-mental-illness-competent-to-stand-trial-capitol-riots-jacob-chansley-donald-trump-q-anon/65-edec1f29-ff6a-48d8-923c-0cd0c4ed80fd

ozimoron · June 12, 2022

Members of the House committee investigating the Capitol riot said Sunday they have uncovered enough evidence for the Justice Department to consider an unprecedented criminal indictment against former President Donald Trump for seeking to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

The committee announced that Trump’s campaign manager, Bill Stepien, is among the witnesses scheduled to testify at a hearing Monday that focuses on Trump’s effort to spread his lies about a stolen election.

As the hearings unfold, Rep. Adam Schiff said he would like the department to “investigate any credible allegation of criminal activity on the part of Donald Trump.” Schiff, D-Calif., who also leads the House Intelligence Committee, said that ”there are certain actions, parts of these different lines of effort to overturn the election that I don’t

https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-adam-schiff-government-and-politics-presidential-elections-d87892379e7e81c2907edef81a3b2b86

KarenBravo · June 12, 2022

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

Actually, early in his career he did do some great complicated projects. Although, his father was still there to help him But as time went by he became more and more impulsive. His deals for the Casinos, the Plaza, the Trump shuttle were way too high priced. He got out-negotiated.

Even his love buddy Kim Jong Un out-negotiated him.

Kim got photo opportunities and legitimacy and a propaganda coup whilst the US got nothing.

heybruce · June 12, 2022

6 hours ago, candide said:

That would be a case of failure to act. It is the duty of a president to protect the U.S. Constitution and its institutions. On top of it, if it comes up to be the outcome, not only of negligence, but also of common interest with and sympathy for the rioters, it would be an aggravating circumstance.

Failure to act, whether it's President George Bush freezing on September 11, 2001 when he was told the country was under attack or President Donald Trump waiting to see how the attack on the Capitol played out before making any action, should disqualify anyone from being President and Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces.

heybruce · June 12, 2022

2 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

we need more people like Trump, let's hope he is re-elected, pardon everyone on the January 6th incident, and put Biden in jail for being a boring wa*nker ????

Putin would certainly agree.

candide · June 12, 2022

11 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Failure to act, whether it's President George Bush freezing on September 11, 2001 when he was told the country was under attack or President Donald Trump waiting to see how the attack on the Capitol played out before making any action, should disqualify anyone from being President and Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces.

There was a big difference between these two cases. Bush was not particularly supportive of the terrorist organisation. It was only due to his incompetence. There could not be any suspicion that he did it on purpose.

That's quite different from Trump who was supportive of the protesters. Actually, he called them to protest (even if he did not literally tell them to storm the Capitol). There is a credible suspicion that he failed to act on purpose. Well, I guess we'll know more about it after the next hearings.

Lacessit · June 12, 2022

Committee finds enough evidence to indict Donald Trump over Capitol riots

Source: The New Daily, Australian independent media.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/us-news/trump-news/2022/06/13/donald-trump-riot-evidence/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning News - 20220613

Edited June 12, 2022 by Lacessit

Chomper Higgot · June 12, 2022

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

No wonder McCarthy got the hump. Pelosi being so democratic. 555.

He got the hump because Pelosi understood the rules and out played him.

Lacessit · June 12, 2022

5 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

No matter how much I loathe the man, I STILL can't deny him the benefit-of-the-doubt. I simply cannot pretend there is no doubt....... like we see so many doing........... when I can come up with at least a dozen reasonable explanations......... that show there are!

Yes, when a coach says to "fight like hell," we know what that means. But more importantly, we also know what that DOESN'T mean!

Automatically assuming Trump meant something different because he's Trump........... is just wrong!

There's a video on the Australian ABC news site which shows police battling to hold off the rioters at the Capitol, getting bashed for their pains, and pleading for support of their radios.

The video also has a voice-over from Trump, saying how he can feel all the love in the air. A spill-my-coffee on the keyboard moment.

Trump plays to the basest instincts of people. You're the one that is wrong.

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