Ukrainian leaders worried about 'war fatigue' among Western allies amid protracted conflict with Russia

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, GrandPapillon said:

Zelensky is unprepared and being invaded, he is in a weak spot.

 

Russia is not going to stop the war for all the reasons we explained before. It's too late now. We should have acted before.

 

Like I said, unless we want to start WW3 and have NATO involved, then Ukraine will fall one way or another.

 

There you go, Zelensky being unprepared according to you....lol

 

Yet you'll find that it was Putin who was unprepared for the bravery of the Ukraine military and its civilians who are fighting for their land and will continue to do so.

 

Putin has also made clear he is not stopping with just Ukraine does the west just let him carry on?

 

 

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1 minute ago, heybruce said:

In other words, you have nothing to support your claim that Ukraine will have to pay for the weapons sent to it, other than your claim to know something about the US and the Pentagon.

 

I suspect you know little or nothing about this topic.

I don't understand. You won't take the word of an anonymous poster on thaivisa who is clearly unwilling and/or unable to provide objectively confirmable evidence of his claims? 

[GrandPapillon]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

If the war had gone according to Putin's plan

We really don't know what was his plans, analysts are trying to interpret his moves, but there could hundreds of reasons why he is doing these tactics, maybe keep the Ukraine army busy while he is attacking other fronts. The truth is nobody can tell, not even the Pentagon spies. Not even Placeholder or you

 

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

However when some kind of truce or peace is negotiated after fighting the Russian "superpower" to a bloody stand-still it will leave Ukraine as an independent nation.  That is what Putin was trying to destroy. 

the Minsk accord he signed was doing this, yet was ignored by Zelensky and the Europeans. He claims he doesn't mind Ukraine joining the EU as long as it doesn't join NATO. Putin says what he means, unlike our western leaders.

 

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

It also will have exposed Russia's military as so incompetent it couldn't beat a much smaller opponent.

I don't think they are putting all their forces out there, some analysts are surprised by this also. Is it incompetence or strategic (saving resources for later attacks)? you can't tell, I can't tell.

 

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

That is not "all for nothing".

it's debatable, and I think it will be at the end, many died for what? for a peace accord that was a copy of what was already signed yet ignored.

 

War is always for nothing at the end.

[GrandPapillon]

27 minutes ago, heybruce said:

In other words, you have nothing to support your claim that Ukraine will have to pay for the weapons sent to it, other than your claim to know something about the US and the Pentagon.

 

I suspect you know little or nothing about this topic.

because you think you know more by repeating Biden words and news headlines. At best, you are like the Putin crowd following a scripted narrative...

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I don't know about Zelensky being unprepared, whatever that means, but Ukraine was certainly prepared. If it wasn't prepared enough it was only for want of materiel. Clearly in training and strategy, its military is far in advance of the Russians.

Ukraine is also far ahead of Russia in motivation.  Ukraine's soldiers are fighting for their homes and nation.  Many Russian soldiers didn't know they were being sent into a war until they were fired upon.  From then on they were simply trying to stay alive and loot, rape and drink as much as they could.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

We really don't know what was his plans, analysts are trying to interpret his moves, but there could hundreds of reasons why he is doing these tactics, maybe keep the Ukraine army busy while he is attacking other fronts. The truth is nobody can tell, not even the Pentagon spies. Not even Placeholder or you ????

 

 

You're wrong, he laid out his plans and demands clearly in Dec last year:

 

Putin’s ambitions go beyond Ukraine.
The so-called ‘security treaties’ he presented to NATO and the United States last December made demands not only on Ukraine, but also on NATO to refrain from any further enlargement, and remove NATO troops and infrastructure from countries that joined the Alliance after 1997, introducing some sort of first class and second class members of NATO.

These demands amount to the complete re-write of the European security order, enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act. 
One of the main principles in the Helsinki Final Act is the right of each nation to choose its own path. 
This is exactly what President Putin is openly contesting. 

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4 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

We really don't know what was his plans, analysts are trying to interpret his moves, but there could hundreds of reasons why he is doing these tactics, maybe keep the Ukraine army busy while he is attacking other fronts. The truth is nobody can tell, not even the Pentagon spies. Not even Placeholder or you ????

Sure. Putin lost a huge amount of materiel as well as many elite troops, just as a kind of feint. And lots of generals and intelligent agents got punished afterwards because of the good job they did in reporting about what kind of reception the Russian army would receive on its advance towards Kiiv. It is to laugh.

[placeholder]

 

6 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

because you think you know more by repeating Biden words and news headlines. At best, you are like the Putin crowd following a scripted narrative, at worst, a propagandist ????

 

What don't you understand about the difference between objectively confirmable evidence and claims backed only by suspicions?

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

because you think you know more by repeating Biden words and news headlines. At best, you are like the Putin crowd following a scripted narrative, at worst, a propagandist ????

 

I think I know more than you because you posted that Biden was "sanctioning the EU with silly restrictions and forcing a gas and oil ban on his EU partners while he is "selling" expensive new toys to Ukraine".

 

You also stated "knowing the story of the US and the Pentagon in particular when it comes to "selling" toys".

 

Yet you have not come up with anything to support your claims of knowledge about US dominance of the EU or the US hitting countries with unexpected bills for weapons sent to them. 

 

You post fact-free opinions and insist they are correct because you have superior knowledge that you won't disclose.

 

You may have sold yourself on that nonsense, but you don't appear to have convinced anyone else.

 

 

[GrandPapillon]

41 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

What don't you understand about the difference between objectively confirmable evidence and claims backed only by suspicions?

what is it you don't understand that all you are posting is "opinions" and "claims",

 

news links and government statements are not "objectively confirmable" evidence, just opinions posted by others

 

you accuse others of doing the exact same thing you are doing

Edited June 14, 2022 by onthedarkside
trolling comment removed

[heybruce]

12 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

We really don't know what was his plans, analysts are trying to interpret his moves, but there could hundreds of reasons why he is doing these tactics, maybe keep the Ukraine army busy while he is attacking other fronts. The truth is nobody can tell, not even the Pentagon spies. Not even Placeholder or you ????

 

the Minsk accord he signed was doing this, yet was ignored by Zelensky and the Europeans. He claims he doesn't mind Ukraine joining the EU as long as it doesn't join NATO. Putin says what he means, unlike our western leaders.

 

I don't think they are putting all their forces out there, some analysts are surprised by this also. Is it incompetence or strategic (saving resources for later attacks)? you can't tell, I can't tell.

 

it's debatable, and I think it will be at the end, many died for what? for a peace accord that was a copy of what was already signed yet ignored.

 

War is always for nothing at the end.

Wasting a large portion of the invasion force was not a tactic, it was incompetence.

 

The Minsk accord was doomed in large part because Russia refused to admit that it had a significant military presence in eastern Ukraine, which was a violation of the agreement.

[GrandPapillon]

33 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I think I know more than you because you posted that Biden was "sanctioning the EU with silly restrictions and forcing a gas and oil ban on his EU partners while he is "selling" expensive new toys to Ukraine".

well I am assuming you are not Europeans, because the impact is real here, prices at gas station are at an all time high...

 

try critical thinking and question what you are being fed with official narratives. But I guess it's too much for some people, and they will prefer the "emotional assurance" of following the official "news" narrative to go through their day

 

[GrandPapillon]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Wasting a large portion of the invasion force was not a tactic, it was incompetence.

 

now you are a war expert? what is your "objective evidence" of that ? ????

 

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

right from the NATO propaganda machine ????

 

so you are a propagandist, knew it ????

 

From the head of NATO speaking just a couple of days ago actually quoting Putins list of demands made in December.

 

It was widely reported back in Dec by Russia’s foreign ministry. Propaganda?

[heybruce]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

now you are a war expert? what is your "objective evidence" of that ? ????

 

Now you are displaying incredible ignorance of military matters.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

what is it you don't understand that all you are posting is "opinions" and "claims",

 

news links and government statements are not "objectively confirmable" evidence, just opinions posted by others

 

you accuse others of doing the exact same thing you are doing, it's hilarious ????

 

Sure. So, every source that's reporting on the legislation is conspiring to promote a big lie? Nowhere have I seen a report that claims this aid is really a loan. Not one reporter has looked at the legislation and corroborated your claims. You've got nothing except ridiculousness to back you up.

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

we will need some "objective evidence" of that, not some words "transcribed" by the head of NATO ????

If you're at the stage that you question the head of NATO in relaying Putin's security demands as propaganda then you are so far down the rabbit hole its pointless debating further with you

[heybruce]

18 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

what is it you don't understand that all you are posting is "opinions" and "claims",

 

news links and government statements are not "objectively confirmable" evidence, just opinions posted by others

 

you accuse others of doing the exact same thing you are doing, it's hilarious ????

 

That explains why you haven't supported any of your posts with facts and sources.

 

Do you believe in any source for "objectively confirmible evidence"?

[heybruce]

17 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

well I am assuming you are not Europeans, because the impact is real here, prices at gas station are at an all time high, but I guess you will need an official "government" statement to acknowledge that ????

 

jesus, try critical thinking and question what you are being fed with official narratives. But I guess it's too much for some people, and they will prefer the "emotional assurance" of following the official "news" narrative to go through their day ????

 

I see.  You want Russia to be given a free hand to crush Ukraine because you are unhappy with gas prices.

 

No doubt the people of Ukraine sympathize with your terrible hardship.

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Now you are displaying incredible ignorance of military matters.

What don't you understand about the fact the destroying huge quantities of your armaments is actually a brilliant tactical feint. And losing elite troops is more of the same. Not to mention the deaths of thousands of other troops. And the imprisonments of Russian intelligence officials for the accuracy of their intelligence reports. What's more, I'm sure that Papillon can produce scores of military experts praising the success of Russians Kiiv "feint". 

[placeholder]

22 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

well I am assuming you are not Europeans, because the impact is real here, prices at gas station are at an all time high, but I guess you will need an official "government" statement to acknowledge that ????

 

jesus, try critical thinking and question what you are being fed with official narratives. But I guess it's too much for some people, and they will prefer the "emotional assurance" of following the official "news" narrative to go through their day ????

 

How about the Finns? Are they European enough for you? After over 75 years of remaining neutral, they decided to join NATO. 

[talahtnut]

Nothing of the truth will be learnt from Western news agencies.

[3NUMBAS]

meanwhile russias heading down the  toilet to never recover in a 100 years to the stone age

 

aviation gone for good ,wonder what it will be like in the s**t for good

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Nothing of the truth will be learnt from Western news agencies.

There's no war in Ukraine then, those mass graves are empty, it was western actors who set up the Bucha war crimes and those who have lost loved ones are dreaming?

[JimmyJ]

The USA using Ukraine in their  proxy war vs Russia, and the USA is bravely determined to fight to the last Ukrainian.

Edited June 14, 2022 by JimmyJ

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

The USA using Ukraine in their  proxy war vs Russia, and the USA is bravely determined to fight to the last Ukrainian.

Right. The USA is forcing the Ukrainians to accepts its weapons?

[ballpoint]

2 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

The USA using Ukraine in their  proxy war vs Russia, and the USA is bravely determined to fight to the last Ukrainian.

Unaided, Ukraine will bravely fight to the last Ukrainian.

Aided, Ukraine will bravely fight to the last Russian.

[sscc]

6 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Of course peace negotiations is likely to be the only way out, that is very different from your  "Zelensky will eventually surrender"

 

As for your "Zelensky is going to fail" there's your Hollywood movie but its fine keep dreaming, RT news does it all the time

 

Giving land to Putin will be Ukraine only way out. 

Putin is for real ;  Zelensky is for showbiz. 

99-year old Henry K  still has a clearer mindset  than Zelensky who may be half the age.     

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, sscc said:

Giving land to Putin will be Ukraine only way out. 

Putin is for real ;  Zelensky is for showbiz. 

99-year old Henry K  still has a clearer mindset  than Zelensky who may be half the age.     

Yes, Putin has repeatedly demonstrated the awesomeness of the Russian military. A military that Ukraine has defeated in one compaign and has taken back territory from Russia as well as losing some. And this despite Russia's big advantage in arms. Have you considered the possibility that Russia may not be able to keep up the pace of its offensive for much longer?

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, sscc said:

Giving land to Putin will be Ukraine only way out. 

Putin is for real ;  Zelensky is for showbiz. 

99-year old Henry K  still has a clearer mindset  than Zelensky who may be half the age.     

Nope  there is another way out. Defeat the war criminal Putin.