U.S. Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, ending 50 years of federal abortion rights

[Jingthing]

Its victory day for the Handmaid's Tale brigade.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Jingthing

[Bkk Brian]

29 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

What an egregious claim - and highly predictable talking point.

The US still has unrestricted internal movement. It is still a country, made up of states. In the very small number of cases that "poor" women are so poor that they cannot afford to travel to a state like New Jersey (that still allows late 3rd trimester abortions), you can bet an unborn child's life on an outside pro-abortion organization coming in to finance the trip - and a TON of media coverage to boot.

 

 

Yea a predictable talking point and quite rightly so, egregious it is not. Its a little more complex than you think. 

 

There’s no guarantee that people can get abortions in liberal states, either

Edited June 24, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[stoner]

20 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Including those born as a result of rape or incest?

i understand the perspective but lets run the numbers of how many times that actually happens vs the number of total abortions. the number from rape and incest is very small i think we can agree ? compared to the ones not for those 2 reasons. 

 

this is a touchy subject all around.

 

personal experience then.....in my early 20s a gf got pregnant. had an abortion and only told me after she had the abortion.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, stoner said:

i understand the perspective but lets run the numbers of how many times that actually happens vs the number of total abortions. the number from rape and incest is very small i think we can agree ? compared to the ones not for those 2 reasons. 

 

this is a touchy subject all around.

 

personal experience then.....in my early 20s a gf got pregnant. had an abortion and only told me after she had the abortion.

It's not relevant how many there are right? I would disagree that rape induced pregnancies are that few but ALL of them should have the right to an abortion.

[Atlantis]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Those two seats were obtained by dirty trickery and you know it.

One of the seats was obtained by a disgraceful (but not entirely unprecedented) power grab by McConnell, but the nominee is neither unqualified nor "far right".
 

[stoner]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

It's not relevant how many there are right? I would disagree that rape induced pregnancies are that few but ALL of them should have the right to an abortion.

it kind of is though. if this was any number of other situations in life where stats could show a very lop sided statistic. most would be behind it without question. 

 

i would go out on a limb and say that over 99 percent of abortions daily in the USA are not because the woman was raped or involved with incest. 

 

if you can prove me wrong i will eat crow.

 

no where did i say anything about rights. 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Atlantis said:

One of the seats was obtained by a disgraceful (but not entirely unprecedented) power grab by McConnell, but the nominee is neither unqualified nor "far right".
 

Both seats were obtained unethically

Both are far right and pro theocracy.

They just overturned Roe v Wade.

I didn't mention qualification.

 

[Atlantis]

41 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It takes away civil rights women have had for many decades.

"It" doesn't take away anything.
"It" merely says 'this is not a federal issue / this is not in the constitution, it is up to the states.

Your issue is with certain red states. Those states would have had decades to respond to their voting public had it not been for Roe V Wade.
It won't sort itself out overnight. It might even take many more years to find some kind of equilibrium resembling many other civilized western nations.

And I'm talking about both red and blue states, some of which have far more lax abortion regulations than Europe / the UK.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Atlantis
'give' deleted

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, stoner said:

it kind of is though. if this was any number of other situations in life where stats could show a very lop sided statistic. most would be behind it without question. 

 

i would go out on a limb and say that over 99 percent of abortions daily in the USA are not because the woman was raped or involved with incest. 

 

if you can prove me wrong i will eat crow.

 

no where did i say anything about rights. 

The national rape-related pregnancy rate is 5.0% per rape among victims of reproductive age (aged 12 to 45); among adult women an estimated 32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year. Among 34 cases of rape-related pregnancy, the majority occurred among adolescents and resulted from assault by a known, often related perpetrator

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8765248/

 

Would you agree that that's 32,000 abortions a year which should be allowed. This figure doesn't include incest.

 

Almost 3 million women in the U.S. experienced RRP during their lifetime.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/understanding-RRP-inUS.html

Edited June 24, 2022 by ozimoron

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Atlantis said:

"It" doesn't take away anything.
"It" gives merely says 'this is not a federal issue / this is not in the constitution, it is up to the states.

Your issue is with certain red states. Those states would have had decades to respond to their voting public had it not been for Roe V Wade.
It won't sort itself out overnight. It might even take many more years to find some kind of equilibrium resembling many other civilized western nations.

And I'm talking about both red and blue states, some of which have far more lax abortion regulations than Europe / the UK.

NO!!!

Roe vs Wade gave a CONSTITUTIONAL right to abortion.

That has been stripped away.

This is disgusting.

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Atlantis said:

"It" doesn't take away anything.
"It" gives merely says 'this is not a federal issue / this is not in the constitution, it is up to the states.

Your issue is with certain red states. Those states would have had decades to respond to their voting public had it not been for Roe V Wade.
It won't sort itself out overnight. It might even take many more years to find some kind of equilibrium resembling many other civilized western nations.

And I'm talking about both red and blue states, some of which have far more lax abortion regulations than Europe / the UK.

Taking away abortion rights is taking away womens rights, that's exactly what the court has done and many states are following up on that. No matter how you want to spin it.

[Atlantis]

35 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Its victory day for the Handmaid's Tale brigade.

Because they finally correctly applied the US Constitution?!!!! You do know Amendments are a thing right?! You know, there's a mechanism to actually put expansive abortion rights in. Oh wait, but you can't just do that by getting 51% of the vote and then yelling 'fascist!'

"Fascism" isn't defined as properly following a constitution. I think that's called 'hyperbole' or alternatively 'throwing your toys out of the pram / stroller'

Edited June 24, 2022 by Atlantis
Edit: + In fact, you could say that correctly following a constitution is very much the opposite of fascism

[stoner]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

The national rape-related pregnancy rate is 5.0%

ok i was wrong about the 1 percent you are right on that.

 

95 percent is still the vast vast overwhelming majority. even if incest is 5 percent you are still at 90 which is still the vast majority. 

 

 

 

 

[ozimoron]

Just now, stoner said:

ok i was wrong about the 1 percent you are right on that.

 

95 percent is still the vast vast overwhelming majority. even if incest is 5 percent you are still at 90 which is still the vast majority.

Even if it's ONE pregnancy due to rape or incest, surely the mother should be able to have an abortion?

[Atlantis]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

NO!!!

 

Roe vs Wade gave a right to abortion.

That has been stripped away.

This is disgusting.

 

 

A legally ridiculous ruling that has caused decades of proper debate and legislation to be lost. The mistake has finally been rectified, and the rest is on the states. BASIC FACT.

[Jingthing]

An interesting factoid.

The mortality rate of American women giving birth is massively higher than other developed countries.

Most of the women that will now be forced to give birth are poor with usually substandard health care.

This decision.will result in the deaths of many of these poor women.

[Atlantis]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Taking away abortion rights is taking away womens rights, that's exactly what the court has done and many states are following up on that. No matter how you want to spin it.

There's nothing remotely ridiculously about the fact that it is certain states that are now restricting abortion.
Roe V Wade was a mistaken aberration that should have been obvious to highschoolers on first reading back in 1970s.

The publicly available draft ruling was as clear as day

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21835435-scotus-initial-draft

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Not surprising when one considers that six of the nine sitting Supreme Court justices are Catholic and another, Gorsuch, was raised Catholic.

 

Next up will be erosion of the separation of church and state with taxpayer money being given to religious schools and prayer being re-introduced into public school classrooms.

 

The West worked hard to extract itself from the morass of religion, but in the US it seems to be sinking back in.

 

Perhaps the one good thing about overturning Roe v. Wade is that the fundamentalist types will stop supporting the Republican Party now that their main political demand has been met.

 

 

[stoner]

 

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

An interesting factoid.

The mortality rate of American women giving birth is massively higher than other developed countries.

Most of the women that will now be forced to give birth are poor with usually substandard health care.

This decision.will result in the deaths of many of these poor women.

40 odd percent of the worlds population lives on about 5.50 a day. oldish numbers but the idea is there.

Edited June 24, 2022 by stoner

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Not surprising when one considers that six of the nine sitting Supreme Court justices are Catholic and another, Gorsuch, was raised Catholic.

 

Next up will be erosion of the separation of church and state with taxpayer money being given to religious schools and prayer being re-introduced into public school classrooms.

 

The West worked hard to extract itself from the morass of religion, but in the US it seems to be sinking back in.

 

Perhaps the one good thing about overturning Roe v. Wade is that the fundamentalist types will stop supporting the Republican Party now that their main political demand has been met.

 

 

No. 

Their target is LGBT now.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Atlantis said:

There's nothing remotely ridiculously about the fact that it is certain states that are now restricting abortion.
Roe V Wade was a mistaken aberration that should have been obvious to highschoolers on first reading back in 1970s.

The publicly available draft ruling was as clear as day

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21835435-scotus-initial-draft

I did'nt say it was ridiculous that certain states were banning abortion, I clearly said that you claiming womens rights are not affected was ridiculous, comprehend?

 

Clearly written and clearly understood as no rights to abortion read the whole page not just the highlighted section:

 

[Atlantis]

1 hour ago, stoner said:

i would go out on a limb and say that over 99 percent of abortions daily in the USA are not because the woman was raped or involved with incest. 

@stoner It should be far far higher than 99 percent

 

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

The national rape-related pregnancy rate is 5.0% per rape among victims of reproductive age (aged 12 to 45); among adult women an estimated 32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year. Among 34 cases of rape-related pregnancy, the majority occurred among adolescents and resulted from assault by a known, often related perpetrator

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8765248/

This 5% is not related. It is the percentage of rape victims within a certain age group who supposed become pregnant. The numerator would be pregnancies in this subgroup, the denominator would be the number of rape victims.  That is not the same thing as the number of abortions due to rape across all age groups divided by the total number of abortions.

 

 

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Atlantis said:

@stoner It should be far far higher than 99 percent

 

This 5% is not related. It is the percentage of rape victims within a certain age group who supposed become pregnant. The numerator would be pregnancies in this subgroup, the denominator would be the number of rape victims.  That is not the same thing as the number of abortions due to rape across all age groups divided by the total number of abortions.

Every one of those women should have the choice, whether they choose to exercise that right is irrelevant to the right to make that choice. Is that not true? You agreed previously that they should have that right.

 

[Atlantis]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Every one of those women should have the choice, whether they choose to exercise that right is irrelevant to the right to make that choice. Is that not true? You agreed previously that they should have that right.

 

 

As discussed in a previous thread, not only do I feel the right should be given to rape victims, I clearly believe that rights should be much more in line with European countries that allow termination upto 20+ weeks.

I will state again: this is nothing to celebrate, it is merely the lesser of two evils given the current state of technology and social capability / willingness to care for unwanted children.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Atlantis said:

As discussed in a previous thread, not only do I feel the right should be given to rape victims, I clearly believe that rights should be much more in line with European countries that allow termination upto 20+ weeks.

I will state again: this is nothing to celebrate, it is merely the lesser of two evils given the current state of technology and social capability / willingness to care for unwanted children.

I commend your first point. I think the lesser of two evils would have been to respect  stare decisis and leave the previous 50 year old decision intact. At least two of those justices stated under oath that would be their inclination.

[ozimoron]

President Biden: "This is not over".

[ozimoron]

Should women who get abortions in defiance of the law be punished? Should state laws outlawing abortion carry a punishment as all laws do?

[Scott]

Inflammatory post reported and removed.

 

[Jingthing]

This is a very dark day in American history. 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

29 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I commend your first point. I think the lesser of two evils would have been to respect  stare decisis and leave the previous 50 year old decision intact. At least two of those justices stated under oath that would be their inclination.

Yes. Very sleazy behavior..