U.S. approves $820 million military aid package for Ukraine; Russia says iron curtain is ‘already descending’

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Thank you for your contribution.

 

Just curious, were you as exorcised about Putin when he took over the Crimean region in 2014? Were you calling for war and billions of dollars in aid for Ukraine at that time? I am trying to find some consistency in your views.

 

Or is it only.......this time.....that Putin has transformed into a global villain somehow?

I was outraged by it. But the political will wasn't there at that time (not with Obama and not with Western Europe)  in the west to push back adequately and ALSO Putin hadn't pushed his GENOCIDAL agenda yet towards the Ukraine people and nation. Yes of course the west should have tried to stop him earlier, that was a mistake, he was emboldened, and he was very surprised that the response was so different this time. 

 

Objectively even with the dark history in Ukraine, Chechniya, Syria, the terrorism he used to gain power yes we should have known how bad a monster Putin was before. But recently he has completely come out of the closet with his extreme horribleness, with his genocidal invasion of Ukraine, his Russian empire rhetoric, his threats to other European nations,  and it's likely linked to his age and very poor health. He wants to do a lot. quickly. 

 

To add, sorry to disappoint but I don't set U.S. foreign policy. IF Obama had decided to try to form a strong coalition and push back more aggressively at Putin after he stole Crimea, I most certainly would have supported him in that.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Jingthing

[Hanaguma]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I was outraged by it. But the political will wasn't there at that time (not with Obama and not with Western Europe)  in the west to push back adequately and ALSO Putin hadn't pushed his GENOCIDAL agenda yet towards the Ukraine people and nation. Yes of course the west should have tried to stop him earlier, that was a mistake, he was emboldened, and he was very surprised that the response was so different this time. 

Fair answer, well put. Thank you.  FWIW I agree that it did embolden him and is part of the reason for the current shambles.   And to be honest, if the victim were a more democratic and free nation I would be more inclined towards helping them. 

[Sametboy2019]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I was outraged by it. But the political will wasn't there at that time (not with Obama and not with Western Europe)  in the west to push back adequately and ALSO Putin hadn't pushed his GENOCIDAL agenda yet towards the Ukraine people and nation. Yes of course the west should have tried to stop him earlier, that was a mistake, he was emboldened, and he was very surprised that the response was so different this time. 

 

Objectively even with the dark history in Ukraine, Chechniya, Syria, the terrorism he used to gain power yes we should have known how bad a monster Putin was before. But recently he has completely come out of the closet with his extreme horribleness, with his genocidal invasion of Ukraine, his Russian empire rhetoric, his threats to other European nations,  and it's likely linked to his age and very poor health. He wants to do a lot. quickly. 

 

To add, sorry to disappoint but I don't set U.S. foreign policy. IF Obama had decided to try to form a strong coalition and push back more aggressively at Putin after he stole Crimea, I most certainly would have supported him in that.

To be fair they wouldnt of cared about your support. They do as they please. The World Governments are serving themselves not the people!

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Sametboy2019 said:

To be fair they wouldnt of cared about your support. They do as they please. The World Governments are serving themselves not the people!

True but collective popular support matters sometimes. Right now there is a strong majority support among Americans to support Ukraine's military. Without that it would be harder to get the needed funding.

[blazes]

On 7/2/2022 at 11:18 AM, Jingthing said:

Ukraine needs to win.

Putin needs to lose.

The results have global consequence.

Luckily the US doesn't have an America First fascist isolationist as president now.

Dude, you need to cool down.....

[vandeventer]

22 hours ago, steven100 said:

I say destroy Putin's  palaces .....   and then go after putin himself.   Wiping him out would likely stop the war immediately. 

I am surprised someone hasn't taken him out already .....   

I think if you push Putin too hard he will use his Nukes as he doesn't care about anything or anyone at this stage. He knows he is dying and in his frame of mind he might want to take all of us with him.

[heybruce]

17 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Iraq and Afghanistan were both total disasters. Not the kind of example I would use to justify excess military spending. Both left their regions worse off than before. 

 

If other countries want to join NATO, good for them. And also up to them.  

 

If you want to stop innocent loss of life, get Ukraine and Russia to the bargaining table and get them to hammer out an agreement.  But keeping Ukraine propped up with weapons and gold will not encourage them to negotiate. 

Keeping Ukraine propped up with weapons and gold will encourage Russia to negotiate.  Allowing Russia to overrun Ukraine will not.

[IAMHERE]

The cool aid from America; The west is always right, don't cha know? 

[Cory1848]

On 7/2/2022 at 11:45 AM, Hanaguma said:

A pity what is happening in Ukraine, but they aren't worth a single life of an American soldier.

 

Oh. A “quarrel in a faraway country, between people of whom we know nothing.” At risk of stating the obvious (and of misquoting another aphorism): “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

[blazes]

19 minutes ago, Cory1848 said:

Oh. A “quarrel in a faraway country, between people of whom we know nothing.” At risk of stating the obvious (and of misquoting another aphorism): “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

Precisely.  Well put, but surely you did not mean it as I have taken it?? 

 

That is, those who cannot remember  America's defeats in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are condemned to repeat them ad nauseam.....

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, blazes said:

Precisely.  Well put, but surely you did not mean it as I have taken it?? 

 

That is, those who cannot remember  America's defeats in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are condemned to repeat them ad nauseam.....

Have you considered that the Soviet Union's defeat in Afghanistan might be the more appropriate historical analogy? Remember that's when Americans aided the indigenous people to defeat the Soviet machine. Much like the way the USSR helped the Vietnamese defeat the Americans. And the Iranians helped to undermine the Americans in Iraq. 

Do you get the picture now? Outside aid to locals trumps foreign invaders.

[blazes]

28 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Have you considered that the Soviet Union's defeat in Afghanistan might be the more appropriate historical analogy? Remember that's when Americans aided the indigenous people to defeat the Soviet machine. Much like the way the USSR helped the Vietnamese defeat the Americans. And the Iranians helped to undermine the Americans in Iraq. 

Do you get the picture now? Outside aid to locals trumps foreign invaders.

Love the verb in that last sentence!!

So, just so that a dimwit like me can "get the picture" now, you are saying, are you, that the "outside [American] aid" given to the terrorists of the Mujahadeen led to the locals overthrowing the Soviets and welcoming the Americans post 9/11????

How come the Afghans failed to show their appreciation of American aid when the Soviets had left and the Americans invaded (the 3rd occupying country in a century) ??  But yes, that does show that the Americans were only the latest in a long line of imperialists to fail to learn from history.

 

So, I guess we agree?

[placeholder]

17 minutes ago, blazes said:

Love the verb in that last sentence!!

So, just so that a dimwit like me can "get the picture" now, you are saying, are you, that the "outside [American] aid" given to the terrorists of the Mujahadeen led to the locals overthrowing the Soviets and welcoming the Americans post 9/11????

How come the Afghans failed to show their appreciation of American aid when the Soviets had left and the Americans invaded (the 3rd occupying country in a century) ??  But yes, that does show that the Americans were only the latest in a long line of imperialists to fail to learn from history.

 

So, I guess we agree?

Why would the locals hostile reaction to an American invasion even be relevant?( In fact, aid from Pakistan and Iran to the Afghanis against the American invasion was very effective.)  The point is that aiding an indigenous population against a hated invader has repeatedly been show to be very effective. And I want to apologize for not thanking you before for providing all the examples, including the latest one, that show how effective that aid can be. Thanks a lot.

Edited July 4, 2022 by placeholder

[Bkk Brian]

Ukraine president adviser names conditions for resumption of talks with Russia

 

"Ceasefire. Z-troops withdrawal. Returning of kidnapped citizens. Extradition of war criminals. Reparations mechanism. Ukraine's sovereign rights recognition. The Russian side knows our conditions well.

[MrJ2U]

On 7/2/2022 at 10:13 PM, Hanaguma said:

Yes Russia is the aggressor, but so what?  How much blood and treasure do you think we should expend to prop up Zelenskyy?  How many boys would you like to see come home in body bags? I say zero.

 

Russia is not a global threat, at best they are a regional nuisance. And one that Europe should be easily able to handle if they truly wanted to. Instead, they addicted themselves to Putin's energy resources and have been turning a blind eye for years. 

 

Yet somehow when a problem arises, Uncle Sugar has to foot the bill. The US has given far more than the rest of the world combined. It has to end.  The $40 billion sent to push back on Putin has to come from somewhere- it's more money than NASA gets in a year!  

 

Not worth it.

 

 

Thats what many appeasers said about Hitler.

 

Russia is a menace to society. 

[Tropposurfer]

On 7/3/2022 at 1:32 AM, Bkk Brian said:

So what? Is that your attitude to the war crimes going on? This is a small world and we are not propping up just Zelensky, Putin has already made it clear it does not end there with other sovereign nations in his sights. This is a fight for freedom, international law and to stop a genocide.

 

What boys are you referring to coming home in body bags? You mean the foreign legion who volunteered to fight out in Ukraine and who are made of many nationalities?

 

The relevant figure when comparing how much a country contributes to Ukraine is via its GDP and the US is nowhere near the top supplier. That 40 billion has also not been sent, it is part of a budget over some future months.

 

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/

 

 

Here here! 

[transam]

An interesting chat with the head Polish military guy, perfect English too, well worth a watch.....

 

[Tropposurfer]

32 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

Thats what many appeasers said about Hitler.

 

Russia is a menace to society. 

Yep MrJ, Its amazing how some folks, lots of people actually have absolutely no understanding of the nature of our world today. This narrative that we are somehow able to sit separated, isolated, independent (economically socially existentially) of others in the world as it is today and in the future is truly mind-numbingly myopic.

 

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, blazes said:

Precisely.  Well put, but surely you did not mean it as I have taken it?? 

 

That is, those who cannot remember  America's defeats in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are condemned to repeat them ad nauseam.....

Yes, America should not try to prop up unpopular governments.  That's not what's happening in Ukraine.

[superal]

On 7/3/2022 at 8:13 AM, steven100 said:

I say destroy Putin's  palaces .....   and then go after putin himself.   Wiping him out would likely stop the war immediately. 

I am surprised someone hasn't taken him out already .....   

I would think that Putin has a peerless security and an assassination attempt at close quarters would be all but impossible . It is more likely to come from one of his own , or using a missile attack at a known venue of his presence .   

[hotchilli]

On 7/3/2022 at 12:10 AM, tgw said:

Even now, the aid remains limited.

Ukraine didn't receive any armaments with useful ranges of 500-1000Km.

 

Ukraine should be striking Russia's naval bases in Sevastopol and target the Kherch bridge, military infrastructure, but instead it's still David against Goliath.

Part of the "Promise" to receive arms/munitions was that they would not be used to target Russian soil directly.

[blazes]

59 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Yes, America should not try to prop up unpopular governments.  That's not what's happening in Ukraine.

Sad.  Clearly you have absolutely no knowledge of the history of Ukraine. But, more to the point, no awareness of what part Ukraine plays in America's (weird) obsession with a relatively weak Russia.  Since 1917, and for 30 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, America has never quite managed to shrug off the nightmare that the "commies" might one day actually "win" the never-ending war that America has needed to "fight" ever since WW2.

 

And in the never-ending war you need input from the Raytheons of this world....

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, blazes said:

Sad.  Clearly you have absolutely no knowledge of the history of Ukraine. But, more to the point, no awareness of what part Ukraine plays in America's (weird) obsession with a relatively weak Russia.  Since 1917, and for 30 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, America has never quite managed to shrug off the nightmare that the "commies" might one day actually "win" the never-ending war that America has needed to "fight" ever since WW2.

 

And in the never-ending war you need input from the Raytheons of this world....

What's clear is that you are avoiding the question of Ukrainian popular support for the war. Russia denies that there is even such a thing as Ukrainian culture. How do you think Ukrainians feel about that. Especially when they see replacing Ukrainian language schools being replaced by Russian language schools in Kherson, an ethnic Ukrainian region?

[Purdey]

Admittedly, I am much more interested in where is the UN while all this is happening? It was founded specifically to maintaining international peace and security among other things. I just don't see them actually doing anything to stop the war. America clearly is more interested in donating weapons and will probably have strings attached to ensure the Ukraine remains loyal to them. But the UN is flipping useless. 

[heybruce]

21 minutes ago, blazes said:

Sad.  Clearly you have absolutely no knowledge of the history of Ukraine. But, more to the point, no awareness of what part Ukraine plays in America's (weird) obsession with a relatively weak Russia.  Since 1917, and for 30 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, America has never quite managed to shrug off the nightmare that the "commies" might one day actually "win" the never-ending war that America has needed to "fight" ever since WW2.

 

And in the never-ending war you need input from the Raytheons of this world....

That's a very weak dodge.  What evidence do you have that the current government of Ukraine is not popular with the majority of Ukrainians?

[superal]

6 hours ago, vandeventer said:

I think if you push Putin too hard he will use his Nukes as he doesn't care about anything or anyone at this stage. He knows he is dying and in his frame of mind he might want to take all of us with him.

Putin is dying ? Do you have proof or is it just media speculation ?

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, superal said:

Putin is dying ? Do you have proof or is it just media speculation ?

Do you have eyes?

[transam]

52 minutes ago, blazes said:

Sad.  Clearly you have absolutely no knowledge of the history of Ukraine. But, more to the point, no awareness of what part Ukraine plays in America's (weird) obsession with a relatively weak Russia.  Since 1917, and for 30 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, America has never quite managed to shrug off the nightmare that the "commies" might one day actually "win" the never-ending war that America has needed to "fight" ever since WW2.

 

And in the never-ending war you need input from the Raytheons of this world....

Blimey, I nearly had a tear, comrade.....????

[superal]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Do you have eyes?

No proof . You are a medical person who can give a diagnosis from a video or picture ? 

[billd766]

5 hours ago, blazes said:

Love the verb in that last sentence!!

So, just so that a dimwit like me can "get the picture" now, you are saying, are you, that the "outside [American] aid" given to the terrorists of the Mujahadeen led to the locals overthrowing the Soviets and welcoming the Americans post 9/11????

How come the Afghans failed to show their appreciation of American aid when the Soviets had left and the Americans invaded (the 3rd occupying country in a century) ??  But yes, that does show that the Americans were only the latest in a long line of imperialists to fail to learn from history.

 

So, I guess we agree?

Well the Russians left Afghanistan in February 1989 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=when+did+the+russians+leave+afghanistan&sxsrf=ALiCzsaAAMfhy_26cTNTSfhRqMfzUzCN7w%3A1656917285151&source=hp&ei=JY3CYpDRBujvsAf5_7OYCg&iflsig=AJiK0e8AAAAAYsKbNS9keGfn0mlvrfjnV22bprQshss1&ved=0ahUKEwjQ983x0d74AhXoN-wKHfn_DKMQ4dUDCAw&oq=when+did+the+russians+leave+afghanistan&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAw6BAgjECc6BAguECc6BQgAEIAEOggILhCABBDUAjoLCC4QgAQQxwEQ0QM6CAgAEIAEEMkDOgUILhCABFAAWPnhAWCz9QFoAHAAeACAAcgCiAGuQ5IBCDAuMy4zNS4xmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

 

In April 1988, after years of stalemate, Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev signed a peace accord with Afghanistan. In February 1989, the last Soviet soldier left Afghanistan, where civil war continued until the Taliban’s seizure of power in the late 1990s.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=when+did+the+us+invade+afghanistan&sxsrf=ALiCzsYBbCoRAZHGrzNEoy2GoGjB54QoaQ%3A1656917360016&source=hp&ei=b43CYtfjO8PBkwX6opXABg&iflsig=AJiK0e8AAAAAYsKbgOz7Pjem62yyjH65NTMwml4H41e0&oq=when+did+the+us+invade+&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYATIFCAAQgAQyCggAEIAEEIcCEBQyCggAEIAEEIcCEBQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEOgQIIxAnOgQILhAnOgQIABBDOgoILhDHARDRAxBDOgcILhDUAhBDOgQILhBDOggIABCABBDJA1AAWIVuYN2gAWgAcAB4AIABigKIAYEnkgEEMi0yM5gBAKABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

 

On October 7, 2001, the US invaded Afghanistan to avenge the al-Qaida-orchestrated September 11 terrorist attacks. The primary aim of the US invasion was to hunt down Osama bin Laden and punish the Taliban for providing safe haven to al-Qaida leaders.

It took little effort on part of the US to dismantle the Taliban regime. Bin Laden, however, managed to escape. The former al-Qaida head was eventually killed by US troops in Pakistan's Abbottabad city in 2011.

 

The US arrived over 12 years later for a completely different reason.

 

 

1 hour ago, blazes said:

Wrong post. Sorry.