Trump under investigation for potential violations of Espionage Act

[JonnyF]

Just now, ThailandRyan said:

Oh what a juicy Billion dollar lawsuit that would be, better make it a class action lawsuit to get a few coins tossed your way for your injured ego.

Nothing to do with ego. If it turns out to be politically motivated they deserve to be sued. But yes, I could see this going one of two ways. Indictment (no guarantee of conviction of course), or a massive lawsuit against the FBI. 

 

Let's wait and see. Should be interesting.

[SunnyinBangrak]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Really, so a conspiracy between the Dems, the DoJ, the FBI and the Federal Judge that signed the warrant.

 

Please, keep your imagination within the realms of the real fact based world.

 

Investigations are on going, be patient.

 

We don’t need your ludicrous conspiracy theory, simply because it is ludicrous.

 

 

don't sound so shocked. The same FED and same dems have history of doing exactly what you said.

 That is the problem here. It is not the first time they acted dishonestly trying to nail Trump on flimsy or flat out made up evidence. You know this, don't make me put up links again to FBI bad behaviour several years ago when they first tried to remove Trump.

 

[newnative]

2 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Bush receives them.

Carter receives them.

Obama receives them.

Clinton receives them. 

 

What I didn't know until today........... which I acknowledged above...........  is that Biden decided that Trump shouldn't  receive them.......... the first ever former President to be so denied.

 

Be that as it may, if Biden has decided that he should never consult with Trump, he's being foolish. A President has to consider things that no one else has to consider. Having an opportunity to consult with someone who's been in the same position, is invaluable........... regardless of who they are.

 

Good information is good information, regardless of the source!

Maybe the most laugh-out-loud post of this lengthy thread--and that's saying something considering some of the others.

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Really, so a conspiracy between the Dems, the DoJ, the FBI and the Federal Judge that signed the warrant.

 

Please, keep your imagination within the realms of the real fact based world.

 

Investigations are on going, be patient.

 

We don’t need your ludicrous conspiracy theory, simply because it is ludicrous.

 

 

At this point it's no more a conspiracy theory than those accusations being made against Trump. No evidence has been released either way. Nothing proved, nothing released, no indictment.

 

Nothing has been proved in court. Try to keep an open mind, or at least if your political bias precludes you from doing that, try to reduce the vitriol for us neutrals that do ????. 

[ThailandRyan]

7 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

Or more likely, as it has been several days past with no news just climbdowns that Garland did in fact know about it and that it is not nuclear material or whatever, that there will be no indictment.

If they had ANYTHING at all they would have charged him on the first day. They will have known they had to get it right this time, after many judicial and authority attacks on him failed dismally. They will have realized that to storm his house and even go as far as looking at Melania's underwear drawer they had better come out fast and with grade A evidence of a serious crime that was a clear and present danger to America.

 Huge fail. Now ex Presidents will get their houses stormed whenever the current President needs an urgent distraction, just like they will be impeached whenever the opposition don't like a President. The damage to democracy these hateful democrats have caused is unfathomable.

Or more likely you wish them to rush to judgment and arrest and charge him without having an airtight case so your hero can then as you say walk away with his reputation still intact, a man who was never impeached, who never paid out a settlement to a lawsuit, and never lost any of his hotels.  Hmmm he is an unimpeachable man in your view....But then I am so sorry your view is enclosed in such a narrow view  without seeing the actual emperor without his clothes on.  I guess when you tell yourself over and over again that the world is out to get you without looking at the optics, well then you start to believe it. 

[SunnyinBangrak]

10 minutes ago, Bruno123 said:

 

Quite pathetic that you had to start by labelling my quite salient post as a rant, in order to deflect once again.

Why is it more important to you as to what evidence they had to make the raid, as opposed to whether he really had classified documents that he knew he wasn't supposed to hold?

Do you care as to whether he is guilty or are you more concerned about protecting a potential criminal?

 

It looks like the latter from where I am sitting.  As if you are trying to get him off the hook on a technicality. What if he is a filthy traitor, in the pocket of Putin? Have you actually ever considered that or is that too much for your mind to ever consider?

What I know about Trump is that is somewhat of a 'snake oil salesman' and a an apparent narcissist. This long before he got into politics.

 

As to the political side of things, again I don't get involved other than to take what he says at face value. 

I will say one thing positive about him; that he is a maverick and certainly shook things up a bit; but a lot of it was just smoke and mirrors...a bit like they way he ran his business. He fooled a lot of people, but not everyone.

 

quote "What if he is a filthy traitor, in the pocket of Putin?"

 

 Probably the dumbest thing I have ever read. IF Trump was a puppet of Putin like the left claim with no evidence, why on earth did Putin not invade the Ukraine when his own puppet was leader of the free world? Makes no sense at all does it? Instead Putin waits for the incorruptible honest and tough Joe Biden and then invades? haha what nonsense.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, JonnyF said:

At this point it's no more a conspiracy theory than those accusations being made against Trump. No evidence has been released either way. Nothing proved, nothing released, no indictment.

 

Nothing has been proved in court. Try to keep an open mind, or at least if your political bias precludes you from doing that, try to reduce the vitriol for us neutrals that do ????. 

Again, I’ve not claimed there is an indictment, I’ve not claimed anything has been proven in court.

 

On multiple occasions I explained the process by which an indictment is obtained, this will all take time.

 

In the meantime the FBI are entirely justified in keeping the scope and breadth of the investigations under wraps.

 

That they are doing so is not evidence of anything other than following cautious procedure to protect on going investigations.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Given the amount of criticism they have taken, if they had solid reasons for such unprecedented action they may have wished to disclose it to quash the rumours and restore some credibility to the Bureau. This is not some low level dope dealing investigation, it is core to the credibility of the country.

 

That's if they had anything of course.

 

If they had very spurious reasons for raid and found nothing, the current policy of saying nothing might be prudent. Let things die down, then try to let it fade away until there's some new drama stealing the headlines. Kind of like the policy countries like Thailand take.

 

"If disclosed, the affidavit would serve as a roadmap to the government's ongoing investigation, providing specific details about its direction and likely course, in a manner that is highly likely to compromise future investigative steps," they wrote in a court filing.

They also said the affidavit must stay sealed because the inquiry involves "highly classified materials".

Edited August 16, 2022 by Rimmer

[ThailandRyan]

11 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Given the amount of criticism they have taken, if they had solid reasons for such unprecedented action they may have wished to disclose it to quash the rumours and restore some credibility to the Bureau. This is not some low level dope dealing investigation, it is core to the credibility of the country.

 

That's if they had anything of course.

 

If they had very spurious reasons for raid and found nothing, the current policy of saying nothing might be prudent. Let things die down, then try to let it fade away until there's some new drama stealing the headlines. Kind of like the policy countries like Thailand take.

Why?  So that the case is out in the open before the man is possibly charged, so the witnesses can be made to disappear, so the wire taps possibly in place can be found, so.....I could go on and on.  You say you understand the legal system and how an investigation works, yet you truly have no clue as to what your talking about but again nice try....off my reading list you are now.

[JonnyF]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Again, I’ve not claimed there is an indictment, I’ve not claimed anything has been proven in court.

 

On multiple occasions I explained the process by which an indictment is obtained, this will all take time.

 

In the meantime the FBI are entirely justified in keeping the scope and breadth of the investigations under wraps.

 

That they are doing so is not evidence of anything other than following cautious procedure to protect on going investigations.

Likewise, an FBI raid is not proof of Trump's guilt. If nothing is found during the raid, serious questions will need to be answered. Like I said, this isn't the local cops raiding a frat party because someone told them the kids were smoking weed.

 

Let's see how it plays out. As we stand, there was an unprecedented raid and no reasons for the raid have been given, and nothing has been released to indicate they found anything of note. Are the FBI hiding the stacks of evidence they found, or did they come up empty handed? We don't know. 

 

One of us is keeping an open mind to both eventualities.

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Says Mr Neutral. Why did you leave out what they actually said?

 

"If disclosed, the affidavit would serve as a roadmap to the government's ongoing investigation, providing specific details about its direction and likely course, in a manner that is highly likely to compromise future investigative steps," they wrote in a court filing.

They also said the affidavit must stay sealed because the inquiry involves "highly classified materials".

Because it's word salad. Nothing of substance in there.

 

A standard statement that could mean they found evidence, or could mean they didn't. I know it annoys you, but I refuse to apologise for remaining open to both possibilities. 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Because it's word salad. Nothing of substance in there.

 

A standard statement that could mean they found evidence, or could mean they didn't. I know it annoys you, but I refuse to apologise for remaining open to both possibilities. 

Word salad, and your bias speculative post was? Jeez, just more proof of your ridiculous disclaimers....lol

 

What we do know is that Trumps lawyer said there were no documents, only for documents to be found earlier this year. Clear evidence gathered recently of which the FBI is looking at these statues:

 

18 U.S.C. SS 793: Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information, which carries a penalty of up to 10 years in prison.

18 U.S.C. SS 2071: Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally, which carries a penalty of up to three years in prison and disqualification from holding office (more on this below).

18 U.S.C. SS 1519: Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy, which carries a penalty of up to 20 years in prison.

 

The FBI is not going to reveal an affidavit and compromise its position when this is potentially a very serious case.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Likewise, an FBI raid is not proof of Trump's guilt. If nothing is found during the raid, serious questions will need to be answered. Like I said, this isn't the local cops raiding a frat party because someone told them the kids were smoking weed.

 

Let's see how it plays out. As we stand, there was an unprecedented raid and no reasons for the raid have been given, and nothing has been released to indicate they found anything of note. Are the FBI hiding the stacks of evidence they found, or did they come up empty handed? We don't know. 

 

One of us is keeping an open mind to both eventualities.

You need to catch up.

 

TS/SCI documents were found and recovered.

 

I have explained before, this represents a two fold threat.

 

Firstly a threat to Trump who now seems to explain his possession of these TS/SCI documents, months after his own attorneys has submitted signed statement that all documents had been returned.

 

Secondly there is the far more serious threat to National security arising from who might have had access to these documents.

 

The upshot is we can be certain this investigation is only just getting started.

 

The documents recovered are evidence of both serious crime and extremely serious threats to national security.

 

This is going to get nasty.

[JonnyF]

7 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Why?  So that the case is out in the open before the man is possibly charged, so the witnesses can be made to disappear, so the wire taps possibly in place can be found, so.....I could go on and on.  You say you understand the legal system and how an investigation works, yet you truly have no clue as to what your talking about but again nice try....off my reading list you are now.

Witnesses made to disappear? And I'm the conspiracy theorist? ???? 

 

Wire taps found? Yep, no way Trump's team are going to look for things like wire taps until the FBI release these details. I bet they're just keeping their powder dry until THAT happens.

 

Off your reading list? ???? Are you 'cancelling' me for disagreeing with you? Showing your left wing credentials there... ????

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The FBI is not going to reveal an affidavit and compromise its position when this is potentially a very serious case.

Assuming it's position is favourable.

 

It's also possible they found nothing, and hence have nothing to reveal. Playing for time while they try to figure a way out of this without heads rolling.

 

Both scenarios perfectly possible...

[heybruce]

42 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You completely lost my attention at this point "as a neutral"...............????

JohhnyF's first two posts on this topic https://aseannow.com/topic/1268315-politics-trump-says-fbi-raiding-his-mar-a-lago-home/#comments

 

began with

 

"Wow. State sponsored raids on the homes of political rivals? " 

 

and 

 

"Of course it was politically motivated."

 

yet he insisted he was neutral on that one as well.

 

I don't think he knows the meaning of "neutral".

[Lacessit]

12 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Why?  So that the case is out in the open before the man is possibly charged, so the witnesses can be made to disappear, so the wire taps possibly in place can be found, so.....I could go on and on.  You say you understand the legal system and how an investigation works, yet you truly have no clue as to what your talking about but again nice try....off my reading list you are now.

I put the poster you refer to on ignore some time ago.

 

Quite apart from wiretaps and witnesses, IMO there is an informant at Mar-Al-Lago. How else did the FBI know Trump still had sensitive documents in his possession? How else would a Federal judge and Merrick Garland both sign off on the search warrant?

Whatever the informant provided must have been solid information.

 

Quite probably, the identity of the informant was in the affidavit tendered to the Federal judge. Given Trump's propensity ( vide Pence ) for egging on his followers, it makes sense to protect the informant's identity, and ignore howling Republicans.

 

My hypothesis could be wrong. However, based on what transpired with the search itself, it seems very likely. The FBI knew exactly what they were looking for.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Assuming it's position is favourable.

 

It's also possible they found nothing, and hence have nothing to reveal. Playing for time while they try to figure a way out of this without heads rolling.

 

Both scenarios perfectly possible...

Let’s dispense with your failure to have heard the FBI found TS/SCI documents when they searched Mar-a-Largo:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62527628

 

This should save you going through the trouble of posting misinformed suggestions that nothings has been found

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Assuming it's position is favourable.

 

It's also possible they found nothing, and hence have nothing to reveal. Playing for time while they try to figure a way out of this without heads rolling.

 

Both scenarios perfectly possible...

They did find something, the FBI took 11 sets of classified documents some of which were "top secret/SCI" -- one of the highest levels of classification.

[heybruce]

It seems Trump's defenders have now resorted to denying reality and complaining that the investigation isn't being conducted the way they want it to be conducted.

[Phoenix Rising]

50 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Simple things confuse simple minds ????

Apparently, as you lost me because of the humongous porky pie you served, which in no shape or form could be confused with the truth.????

[LosLobo]

15 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Witnesses made to disappear? And I'm the conspiracy theorist? ???? 

 

A history of Trump's alleged witness tampering | The Week

[ThailandRyan]

16 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

They did find something, the FBI took 11 sets of classified documents some of which were "top secret/SCI" -- one of the highest levels of classification.

The poster can not come to a grip with reality and instead to him it is all make believe.  He could be shown the evidence he wants to be shown and still say that's not evidence.  He acts just like an arrestee I had many years ago who was arrested for being under the influence and when searched prior to being booked had small packages of crack taped to her legs under her pants.  Of course she said "Thats not mine, you planted that on me", just like the Trump admirers and followers have been trying to say about the FBI.........

Edited August 16, 2022 by ThailandRyan

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, Phoenix Rising said:

And that's where you lost me!

He lost the plot long before you. 

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

The poster can not come to a grip with reality and instead to him it is all make believe.  He could be shown the evidence he wants to be shown and still say that's not evidence.  He acts just like an arrestee I had many years ago who was arrested for being under the influence and when searched prior to being booked had small packages of crack taped to her legs under her pants.  Of course she said "Thats not mine, you planted that on me", just like the Trump admirers and followers have been trying to say about the FBI.........

Looks like it's your turn to get real.

[Thailand]

Oh no not more bad news!

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/08/15/giuliani-target-georgia-criminal-investigation/

[ThailandRyan]

12 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Looks like it's your turn to get real.

Tell me how.  Are you a supporter who believes the FBI found no evidence, or one who believes that they planted it?  The investigation is on-going and will not be played out in the purview of the public, with pundits trying the case.

 

More republicans distancing themselves and calling Trump out as well as his supporters

 

Rep. Adam Kinzinger Slams Trump, His 'Creepy' Supporters' Reaction To FBI Search (msn.com)

 

“Donald Trump and his supporters have become quite creepy in how they’re acting and what they’re threatening,” Kinzinger said, referring to a message Trump reportedly had conveyed to Attorney General Merrick Garland last week.

 

A person familiar with the exchange told The New York Times the message was: “The country is on fire. What can I do to reduce the heat?”

“I don’t know what it means,” Kinzinger said. “Only Donald Trump in his own head knows what that means. But it does strike me as something like, you know, what you hear from the mafia. ‘Hey, if you want your store to be secure, give us money. We’ll make sure you’re secure,’ when in fact there was never a threat in the first place.’”

Edited August 16, 2022 by ThailandRyan

[riclag]

2 hours ago, androokery said:

Is this a machine? It's clear to EVERYONE that this notion of retroactive declassification is just a tactic employed after the fact. And AS SUCH - would you be comfortable with the outcome if this tactic succeeded? Even though you have NO IDEA what the documents that would then be declassified contain? That is the question.

Who am i to doubt or cast dispersion on the experts that Politifact subscribed too in describing the rights afforded to the office of the Potus to declassify/ classify with out process.

Im comfortable with the office holding these  constitutional powers!  

[EVENKEEL]

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

You have now confirmed that you have never worked extensively with classified or in the bureaucracy of a large organization.

 

To answer your question:  Yes, many important documents are stored in cardboard boxes.  The security comes from the number of sturdy locks, doors, walls, and security checks a person would have to go through to get to them.  In the White House there would be a lot of security measures.  It is clear that was not the case at Mar-a-Lago.

Me I've never worked at the White House. I'm assuming you have personal knowledge of how the documents are stored at the White House. Or could it be you're making it up as you go. 

[androokery]

21 minutes ago, riclag said:

Who am i to doubt or cast dispersion on the experts that Politifact subscribed too in describing the rights afforded to the office of the Potus to declassify/ classify with out process.

Im comfortable with the office holding these  constitutional powers!  

You're still not answering the question though. But I can guess which way you're leaning.