Taking the plunge

[BritManToo]

49 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

ALL the visa cases are farangs hence targets of somebody. And of course the profit per case is very different, 200 baht vs many thousand, up to 30 or so I understand.

You don't think non-white foreigners in Thailand have/need VISAs?

[JimmyJ]

15 minutes ago, Padthaigoong said:

 

I do agree that it is time to close the thread though as listening to grown men bickering like school children is tedious.

 

MOD - The OP is asking for the thread to be closed...

 

Discussion of Illegal Activities...

[nigelforbes]

Just now, PJ71 said:

I'm a 'legitimate expat' and could n't care less what people do to get visa's, it's none of my business, or yours.

I care very much when other peoples fraudulent activity breaks the system that I operate in. I care when foreigners do a runner on unpaid hospital bills because that means the government then imposes medical insurance in order for me to get my visa. I care when expats obtain their visas using scam methods because that means Immigration imposes new requirements on my visa application as a result, requirements such as having to keep funds on deposit for X months per year. So yes, it is my business because it effects me personally.

[nigelforbes]

4 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

MOD - The OP is asking for the thread to be closed...

 

Discussion of Illegal Activities...

Just an observation, you guys are way past that point, some posters have set out chapter and verse on this whole business.......whatever were they thinking!

[Padthaigoong]

4 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

I care very much when other peoples fraudulent activity breaks the system that I operate in. I care when foreigners do a runner on unpaid hospital bills because that means the government then imposes medical insurance in order for me to get my visa. I care when expats obtain their visas using scam methods because that means Immigration imposes new requirements on my visa application as a result, requirements such as having to keep funds on deposit for X months per year. So yes, it is my business because it effects me personally.

Oh give it up <deleted> man !

 

You are a bore.

 

Go and do some gardening.

 

Must be the smallest garden in the world since it only took you 5 minutes before you came back and bored us all again last time you did it.

[DrJack54]

@Padthaigoong you are the OP.

If you wish you can ask a Moderator to close the thread.

[PJ71]

9 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

I care very much when other peoples fraudulent activity breaks the system that I operate in. I care when foreigners do a runner on unpaid hospital bills because that means the government then imposes medical insurance in order for me to get my visa. I care when expats obtain their visas using scam methods because that means Immigration imposes new requirements on my visa application as a result, requirements such as having to keep funds on deposit for X months per year. So yes, it is my business because it effects me personally.

I don't care about any of the things you mention.

 

Did you poke your nose in other peoples business in your home country or just since arriving thailand?

[Padthaigoong]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

@Padthaigoong you are the OP.

If you wish you can ask a Moderator to close the thread.

Yes please do.

 

Do I have to pm one ?

[JimmyJ]

13 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Just an observation, you guys are way past that point, some posters have set out chapter and verse on this whole business.......whatever were they thinking!

The 1st worthwhile post by the ghost "nigelforbes", and it's an excellent one.

 

This is on the internet for eternity.

 

"Whatever were they thinking?"

 

Clearly not thinking.

 

Why be self destructive?

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by JimmyJ

[Olmate]

14 minutes ago, kinyara said:

Not surprised you're missing the point when you can't even work out how quote a post correctly.

Missed the relevance of taking money of my account you mean.?? 

[nigelforbes]

2 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

The 1st worthwhile post by the ghost "nigelforbes", and it's an excellent one.

 

This is on the internet for eternity.

 

Whatever are you guys thinking?

 

Clearly not thinking.

 

 

Beer o'clock, does it every time.

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, Padthaigoong said:

Do I have to pm one ?

No need. When a mod notices your request in the thread it will be closed.

 

I notice you did request earlier. 

 

Anyway think your questions have been covered.

You can work out what is best option.

[zzzzz]

Wow, i for one am amazed at the amount of posts related to this
there are Legitimate visa agents that assist you in getting a LEGAL extension even if you dont have the money in the bank
many people use agents cause they can't/don't want to deal with immigration.

one of them sponsored this section

if you think this is corrupt, fine

i look at it as backshish and if you lived in Thailand long enough your realize this keeps the country operating 

btw; i sleep fine at night  ????

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by zzzzz

[Padthaigoong]

1 minute ago, DrJack54 said:

No need. When a mod notices your request in the thread it will be closed.

 

I notice you did request earlier. 

 

Anyway think your questions have been covered.

You can work out what is best option.

Thanks

 

All the constructive comments are greatly appreciated.

[ozfarang]

3 minutes ago, Padthaigoong said:

Thanks

 

All the constructive comments are greatly appreciated.

I've read the entire thread and posted a couple of comments.

I'm off to see a visa agent on Tuesday to change from an extension of stay based on marriage to a Non-O retirement visa.

Had enough of dealing with immigration myself, I'll pay an agent to do that.

[Lacessit]

8 hours ago, BritTim said:

Caught by whom? ... And what crime is anyone going to be charged with?

 

If you know a good Thai lawyer, some time give them the following scenario and ask what crime(s) are being committed by anyone ...

1. Agent pays the senior official's wife to induce the official to use his discretion to waive funds seasoning and approve an extension
2. The official duly approves the extension
3. Both the agent and the official freely admit that this is what was done

You are going to be mighty surprised by the answer. No crime! This is a deliberate loophole in Thai law, and is heavily used, even to influence the approval of multi billion baht contracts. Third world countries' legal systems are not like those of first world countries.

 

Even if you believe the agent and/or the official committed a crime, what crime have you committed? The agent is the expert on immigration matters. Did you force him to commit a crime (assuming a crime was committed which it was not).

I'm a law-abiding person, and I always pay my bills as soon as I get them. I can sleep soundly at night accordingly.

 

The scenario you are presenting assumes the "senior official" is always going to be that. I can remember some years ago there was a new broom at the top of Chiang Mai Immigration, and some hasty retirements resulted. I don't know if that resulted in revocation or denial of visas and extensions, but there was a fair flap going on with some expats.

.

I guess there are a lot of foreigners here that use such agents out of economic necessity. There are probably others that get their rocks off flouting the system even though they have enough cash to satisfy the financial requirements.

 

The first group might get a bit of sympathy from me if things go pear-shaped, the second would get none whatsoever. Som nam na.

[nigelforbes]

9 hours ago, BritTim said:

Caught by whom? ... And what crime is anyone going to be charged with?

 

If you know a good Thai lawyer, some time give them the following scenario and ask what crime(s) are being committed by anyone ...

1. Agent pays the senior official's wife to induce the official to use his discretion to waive funds seasoning and approve an extension
2. The official duly approves the extension
3. Both the agent and the official freely admit that this is what was done

You are going to be mighty surprised by the answer. No crime! This is a deliberate loophole in Thai law, and is heavily used, even to influence the approval of multi billion baht contracts. Third world countries' legal systems are not like those of first world countries.

 

Even if you believe the agent and/or the official committed a crime, what crime have you committed? The agent is the expert on immigration matters. Did you force him to commit a crime (assuming a crime was committed which it was not).

Two points:

 

An officer of Immi cannot arbitrarily decide not to charge applicants visa fees, they must have a valid reason which must withstand scrutiny. And if a "valid reason" is found, how many times can it be used without attracting attention? If those reasons don't exist, the officer is derelict in his duties and is guilty of causing loss to the state. If subsequent scrutiny reveals the officer or his family has become unduly enriched, a charges will likely follow.

 

If the visa applicant pays say 30k for a retirement visa, that person can be assumed to know that is not the market price for obtaining a 1,900 retirement visa and that other services are being provided......it just doesn't pass the test of reasonability. 

[hotandsticky]

1 minute ago, nigelforbes said:

Two points:

 

An officer of Immi cannot arbitrarily decide not to charge applicants visa fees, they must have a valid reason which must withstand scrutiny. And if a "valid reason" is found, how many times can it be used without attracting attention? If those reasons don't exist, the officer is derelict in his duties and is guilty of causing loss to the state. If subsequent scrutiny reveals the officer or his family has become unduly enriched, a charges will likely follow.

 

If the visa applicant pays say 30k for a retirement visa, that person can be assumed to know that is not the market price for obtaining a 1,900 retirement visa and that other services are being provided......it just doesn't pass the test of reasonability. 

 

 

...and there is the flaw in your argument  -  "it just doesn't pass the test of reasonability."

 

This is Thailand, corruption is normal practice and any government office seems more adept at it.

 

 

An Immigration Officer has the authority to approval a RETIREMENT extension for whatever reason he chooses. This rule has created the loophole that provides HUGE income for Immigration officers and the hierarchy. No one is interested in killing the golden goose so this practice will not change for the foreseeable future. Occasional ripples occur when the 'new broom' happens from time to time; the last time in Jomtien things tightened up for a week or so, but were soon back to normal.

 

People can take the pious, moral high ground and claim that they can sleep easy at night. If I had an extension, obtained through the agent route, I would also sleep easy at night because I know that my extension stamp is as valid as anyone's who has undertaken the process themselves.

[nigelforbes]

4 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

...and there is the flaw in your argument  -  "it just doesn't pass the test of reasonability."

 

This is Thailand, corruption is normal practice and any government office seems more adept at it.

 

 

An Immigration Officer has the authority to approval a RETIREMENT extension for whatever reason he chooses. This rule has created the loophole that provides HUGE income for Immigration officers and the hierarchy. No one is interested in killing the golden goose so this practice will not change for the foreseeable future. Occasional ripples occur when the 'new broom' happens from time to time; the last time in Jomtien things tightened up for a week or so, but were soon back to normal.

 

People can take the pious, moral high ground and claim that they can sleep easy at night. If I had an extension, obtained through the agent route, I would also sleep easy at night because I know that my extension stamp is as valid as anyone's who has undertaken the process themselves.

"An Immigration Officer has the authority to approval a RETIREMENT extension for whatever reason he chooses". You don't know that, you assume he does. There can be no doubt whatsoever that the officer has to account to his superiors for that reason which may or may not withstand scrutiny.

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

...and there is the flaw in your argument  -  "it just doesn't pass the test of reasonability."

 

This is Thailand, corruption is normal practice and any government office seems more adept at it.

 

 

An Immigration Officer has the authority to approval a RETIREMENT extension for whatever reason he chooses. This rule has created the loophole that provides HUGE income for Immigration officers and the hierarchy. No one is interested in killing the golden goose so this practice will not change for the foreseeable future. Occasional ripples occur when the 'new broom' happens from time to time; the last time in Jomtien things tightened up for a week or so, but were soon back to normal.

 

People can take the pious, moral high ground and claim that they can sleep easy at night. If I had an extension, obtained through the agent route, I would also sleep easy at night because I know that my extension stamp is as valid as anyone's who has undertaken the process themselves.

You may be right about killing the golden goose. I am not being pious or moral, it's more about risk tolerance.

Your extension stamp is only as valid as mine while the status quo exists. Permit me to doubt it would be if the IO giving you that stamp was to be under investigation for corruption.

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the officer has to account to his superiors for that reason which may or may not withstand scrutiny.

Only if he didn't share the bribe with them.

[hotandsticky]

9 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

"An Immigration Officer has the authority to approval a RETIREMENT extension for whatever reason he chooses". You don't know that, you assume he does. There can be no doubt whatsoever that the officer has to account to his superiors for that reason which may or may not withstand scrutiny.

Incorrect. I do know that.

 

If you also want to be in the know then do the research that I did on Thai Bureau of Immigration website and you will find the exact wording.

[nigelforbes]

Just now, BritManToo said:

Only if he didn't share the bribe with them.

Everybody has a job description, even the Thai Immi officers, especially the Thai Immi officers. EVERYONE reports to somebody, bribe shared or not, the person who decided to waive the visa fee can be called on to account for the reasons why. Maybe not to the immediate superior but to somebody in the line above him/her. 

[nigelforbes]

Just now, hotandsticky said:

Incorrect. I do know that.

 

If you also want to be in the know then do the research that I did on Thai Bureau of Immigration website and you will find the exact wording.

Put simply, you are quite wrong, everyone reports to somebody and everyone has a job description. What do you think the purpose of the NACC is.

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Everybody has a job description, even the Thai Immi officers, especially the Thai Immi officers. EVERYONE reports to somebody, bribe shared or not, the person who decided to waive the visa fee can be called on to account for the reasons why. Maybe not to the immediate superior but to somebody in the line above him/her. 

I would disagree, as the bribes are shared at all levels.

And the highest level immigration officers paid significant bribes to get their posts.

Edited October 16, 2022 by BritManToo

[Orinoco]

1 hour ago, zzzzz said:

Wow, i for one am amazed at the amount of posts related to this
there are Legitimate visa agents that assist you in getting a LEGAL extension even if you dont have the money in the bank
many people use agents cause they can't/don't want to deal with immigration.

one of them sponsored this section

if you think this is corrupt, fine

i look at it as backshish and if you lived in Thailand long enough your realize this keeps the country operating 

btw; i sleep fine at night  ????

 

 

As always in Thailand.

Money Number 1.

Right across the board.

[hotandsticky]

4 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You may be right about killing the golden goose. I am not being pious or moral, it's more about risk tolerance.

Your extension stamp is only as valid as mine while the status quo exists. Permit me to doubt it would be if the IO giving you that stamp was to be under investigation for corruption.

I don't fault your theory - only the practicality.

 

In a country where face is everything, can you really see the authorities coming to me (in those circumstances) and saying "We appear to have a problem with corruption in our organisation and we need to revoke an official extension stamp a bent IO inserted in your passport". 

 

It will never happen. Is it a "risk" - yes, of course it is; but that risk has been voiced for the last 20 years and I would invite anyone to show me the evidence of one - just one - retirement extension being revoked because the IO was under investigation for corruption.

 

At the end of the day the argument is irrelevant; you and I choose to do it the 'straight' way - me solely on cost grounds, other choose the available services of an agent. No different to the option of paying for the services of a bar girl - both practices are illegal  -  but totally acceptable in the Land of Corruption.

 

Long may it continue to be so. 

[hotandsticky]

5 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Put simply, you are quite wrong, everyone reports to somebody and everyone has a job description. What do you think the purpose of the NACC is.

I am not - but, please, keep on ploughing your furrow.

 

Your naivety is astounding.

[Rimmer]

Constant bickering, reports also  requests from the OP to close this topic

//CLOSED//