49 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

.

  So in their beliefs, they were actually defending democracy .

Whether they were right or wrong is irrelevant , the point is that they were defending democracy, rather than trying to over throw it .

 

 

And therein lies an excellent example of why MAGA election denyers are anti-democratic.

 

To them, it doesn't matter who actually, really wins an election based on the ballots cast... It's who they BELIEVE wins elections that matters, regardless of the facts and realities.

 

And those people seem to believe they're entitled to do anything they want -- including criminal offenses and interfering in elections and obstructing the seating of a president -- based on those unfounded (debunked by every court and judge) beliefs.

 

If they have their way, the actual votes won't matter. It's who they believe should win that will matter, and they'll try to decide for the entire country.

 

 

 

Two more trolling posts have been removed. Continue, and you'll face a suspension.

 

20 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

In fact, what it's actually called is "seditious conspiracy," a federal criminal offense:

 

Prosecutors rest in Jan. 6 seditious conspiracy trial of Oath Keepers members

After a month of testimony, the government rested its case Thursday in the seditious conspiracy trial against Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes and four other members of the far-right group.

 

The trial is the most consequential yet to emerge from the Justice Department's sprawling investigation into the deadly Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol. Rhodes and the other defendants are accused of plotting to use force to prevent Joe Biden from taking office as president.

...

In one snippet, Rhodes can be heard saying: "If he's [Trump] not going to do the right thing, and he's just gonna let himself be removed illegally, then we should have brought rifles. We could have fixed it right then and there. I'd hang f****** Pelosi from the lamppost."

 

https://www.kedm.org/npr-news/2022-11-03/prosecutors-rest-in-jan-6-seditious-conspiracy-trial-of-oath-keepers-members

 

Are these more of those terrible terrorists who decided not to bring their guns to their own insurrection?  God forbid they should contravene DC's gun laws on their way to overthrowing democracy...

33 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

To repeat myself, in their opinion, they were defending democracy rather than trying to over throw it 

Defending democracy from what? Itself? Or the 7 million more voters? Every court has ruled against Trump, and his wizard of Oz claims. Every court. 

A post with unsourced claims has been removed.

 

11 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Are these more of those terrible terrorists who decided not to bring their guns to their own insurrection?  God forbid they should contravene DC's gun laws on their way to overthrowing democracy...

 

As the various reports above have explained, the insurrectionists first plan was to pressure VP Pence to block and/or delay Biden's certification by Congress (anti-democratic) and perhaps go down the fake electors road (anti-democratic).

 

But then if that failed... they were waiting for instructions/action from Trump (anti-democratic) that never came:

 

"Alpers said that during the meeting Rhodes typed out on Alpers' cellphone a message for Trump, in which Rhodes urged Trump to invoke the Insurrection Act to remain in power."

 

"As part of the alleged plot, prosecutors presented evidence that the Oath Keepers stashed guns at a hotel in Virginia just outside Washington, D.C., for a quick reaction force to speed into the city on Jan. 6, if necessary.

 

https://www.kedm.org/npr-news/2022-11-03/prosecutors-rest-in-jan-6-seditious-conspiracy-trial-of-oath-keepers-members

 

49 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Which has nothing to do with 99.99% of people who didnt use violence.

 

The Democrats will get smashed in mid terms and rightly so. Worst top 2 ever.

Actually, Biden has done quite alot. And he is likely somewhere in the middle of the list. Trump was likely 43rd, after Andrew Johnson and Buchanan. Harris is a different story. 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/presidents-ranked-worst-best/2/#app

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Your opinion and that of the legal courts does not match

That was there opinion at the time and it isnt necessarily my opinion 

So Biden is saying  in essence that people only have one option to vote for. If that's democracy I don't really understand the logic. 

43 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

As the various reports above have explained, the insurrectionists first plan was to pressure VP Pence to block and/or delay Biden's certification by Congress (anti-democratic) and perhaps go down the fake electors road (anti-democratic).

 

But then if that failed... they were waiting for instructions/action from Trump (anti-democratic) that never came:

 

"Alpers said that during the meeting Rhodes typed out on Alpers' cellphone a message for Trump, in which Rhodes urged Trump to invoke the Insurrection Act to remain in power."

 

"As part of the alleged plot, prosecutors presented evidence that the Oath Keepers stashed guns at a hotel in Virginia just outside Washington, D.C., for a quick reaction force to speed into the city on Jan. 6, if necessary.

 

https://www.kedm.org/npr-news/2022-11-03/prosecutors-rest-in-jan-6-seditious-conspiracy-trial-of-oath-keepers-members

 

...so....they go to the Capitol unarmed, somehow overcome the guards, find the VP, either hang him or pressure him, then the election will magically change.

 

If not, they wait for a call from the Bad Orange Man, then head back across the river to get their guns as a QRF to...what, exactly?  Will they NOW defy Washington's gun laws and react to.... man, I am confused. 

 

or

 

Occam's Razor suggests that they are blowhard wannabes.  No chance of doing any lasting harm to the system whatsoever.

18 minutes ago, pegman said:

So Biden is saying  in essence that people only have one option to vote for. If that's democracy I don't really understand the logic. 

Perhaps this will explain the situation to you. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/03/obama-says-democracy-may-not-survive-if-arizona-republicans-win/

 

 

Obama says democracy ‘may not survive’ if Arizona Republicans win

The warning Wednesday in Phoenix illustrates alarm about voters putting a slate of election deniers in charge of the state’s elections

 

 

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

...so....they go to the Capitol unarmed, somehow overcome the guards, find the VP, either hang him or pressure him, then the election will magically change.

 

If not, they wait for a call from the Bad Orange Man, then head back across the river to get their guns as a QRF to...what, exactly?  Will they NOW defy Washington's gun laws and react to.... man, I am confused. 

 

or

 

Occam's Razor suggests that they are blowhard wannabes.  No chance of doing any lasting harm to the system whatsoever.

Most of them may have been blowhard wannabes, but they assaulted the Capitol because they did not like the results of the elections. And some people try to minimize the significance of it: after all they were harmless, too stupid, etc... As if it were not something important. And that's exactly what is doing a lasting harm to system. If after all, It's not that bad, why not do it again or do something similar next time.

 

It confirms how the U.S. is <deleted>#$% up! Including some posts In this thread! In other democratic countries, there would be no assault of Westminster, the Assemblée Nationale, or the Bundestag, in the hope of overturning elections. And in case it would have happened, no major political party would try to justify it, excuse it, or try to minimise its significance.

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

So much for uniting America. Joe looks so desperate now.

 

I would like to remind you that President Biden and the Democrats actually WON the 2020 Presidential election with a comfortable majority.

 

Unlike EX president Trump, they are NOT wailing and whining about how the election was stolen from him. Just one of the hundreds of baseless lies that EX president Trump spews on a daily basis. 

 

They are trying to unsnarl all of EX president Trump's screwups and run the country as it should be run.

 

I am not sorry if this self evident truth upsets you, EX president Trump's supporters on this forum and even upsets the MAGA supporters as well.

Doesn't upset me at all, as I'm expecting a big win for the GOP in a few days time. I'll only be upset if that doesn't happen.

14 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

 

"As part of the alleged plot, prosecutors presented evidence that the Oath Keepers stashed guns at a hotel in Virginia just outside Washington, D.C., for a quick reaction force to speed into the city on Jan. 6, if necessary.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the demonstrators didn't actually use firearms during the invasion of the Capitol, did they?

 

So, if it was intended to use them, why didn't they?

2 hours ago, candide said:

Most of them may have been blowhard wannabes, but they assaulted the Capitol because they did not like the results of the elections. And some people try to minimize the significance of it: after all they were harmless, too stupid, etc...

You cannot have it both ways .

Its either one or the other .

You cannot claim that they didn't accept the democratic  election result and also they thought the result was rigged ..

   They either thought that the result was rigged and then (in their opinion) tried to fight for democracy and stop the election being stolen OR , they accepted the democratic vote and tried to overturn the vote because they lost .

   It cannot be that they thought the election result was rigged AND they also tried over turn  the democratic vote .

   It needs to be one of the other 

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Perhaps this will explain the situation to you. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/03/obama-says-democracy-may-not-survive-if-arizona-republicans-win/

 

 

Obama says democracy ‘may not survive’ if Arizona Republicans win

The warning Wednesday in Phoenix illustrates alarm about voters putting a slate of election deniers in charge of the state’s elections

 

 

May not? Using fear tactics. Last resort of the desperate. Like the world was going to end by 2010 according to Gore. Sad sad tactics.

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

election deniers in charge of the state’s elections

Sounds like the climate deniers tactic. Bottom of the barrel tactics. Just proves the Democrats are finished.

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You cannot have it both ways .

Its either one or the other .

You cannot claim that they didn't accept the democratic  election result and also they thought the result was rigged ..

   They either thought that the result was rigged and then (in their opinion) tried to fight for democracy and stop the election being stolen OR , they accepted the democratic vote and tried to overturn the vote because they lost .

   It cannot be that they thought the election result was rigged AND they also tried over turn  the democratic vote .

   It needs to be one of the other 

It's not that simple. It's not just about an exercise of formal logic. They believed (or pretended to believe) it because that's what they wanted to believe, as they could not stand losing. They were given this pretext and they happily seized it.

1 minute ago, candide said:

It's not that simple. It's not just about an exercise of formal logic. They believed (or or pretended to believe it) it because that's what they wanted to believe, as they could not stand losing. They were given this pretext and they happily seized it.

So what was it ?

Did they accept the democratic vote and try to overturn that democratic vote or did they think that the vote was fraudulent and try to uphold democracy by not accepting the vote ?

    It cannot be both

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So what was it ?

Did they accept the democratic vote and try to overturn that democratic vote or did they think that the vote was fraudulent and try to uphold democracy by not accepting the vote ?

    It cannot be both

It can be both and more, "Psychologists have long observed how individuals in frenzied crowds seem to lose their sense of individual responsibility and become willing to engage in anti-social behavior they’d never contemplate on their own."

 

 

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So what was it ?

Did they accept the democratic vote and try to overturn that democratic vote or did they think that the vote was fraudulent and try to uphold democracy by not accepting the vote ?

    It cannot be both

As I mentioned before it is not an exercise of formal logic.

Same as when some people want to have a fight.  They will use any pretext in order to start a fight: he looked at me, he looked at my girlfriend, etc... 

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

It can be both and more, "Psychologists have long observed how individuals in frenzied crowds seem to lose their sense of individual responsibility and become willing to engage in anti-social behavior they’d never contemplate on their own."

 

 

It cannot be both .

They cannot have both accepted the democratic vote as being legitimate  and also rejected the same democratic vote as being fraudulent .

2 minutes ago, candide said:

As I mentioned before it is not an exercise of formal logic.

That is correct , the people saying that Trump supporters didn't accept the democratic vote and the same people tried to over turn a legitimate election, make no  logical sense  at all 

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

It can be both and more, "Psychologists have long observed how individuals in frenzied crowds seem to lose their sense of individual responsibility and become willing to engage in anti-social behavior they’d never contemplate on their own."

 

 

Out of context quote. Nothing to do with the election. Many thought it was rigged. Ask people in Europe or Asia. 

 

 

Just now, Sparktrader said:

Out of context quote. Nothing to do with the election. Many thought it was rigged. Ask people in Europe or Asia. 

 

 

Why out of context? Link to it here 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dozens-of-jan-6-rioters-have-apologized-and-disowned-their-stop-the-steal-claims-01617410591

 

More on mob mentality here including Capitol Hill

https://www.ntdaily.com/mob-mentality-is-manipulative-and-merciless/

22 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Why out of context? Link to it here 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dozens-of-jan-6-rioters-have-apologized-and-disowned-their-stop-the-steal-claims-01617410591

 

More on mob mentality here including Capitol Hill

https://www.ntdaily.com/mob-mentality-is-manipulative-and-merciless/

This was almost 2 years ago. If Democrats have zero ideas just admit it. Out they go. After 15 years of lies it is time to boot them out for a long time.

1 minute ago, Sparktrader said:

This was almost 2 years ago. If Democrats have zero ideas just admit it. Out they go. After 15 years of lies it is time to boot them out for a long time.

I was responding to your claim that my quote was out of context. It was not and very relevant to the crowd frenzy in Capitol Hill

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I was responding to your claim that my quote was out of context. It was not and very relevant to the crowd frenzy in Capitol Hill

Nobody cares. If people engage in violence they get arrested. Nothing to do with mid terms. Biden is desperate. Having a voting choice equals democracy. Obviously Biden is a dictator and anti democratic. He doesn't think people should have a choice.

Just now, Sparktrader said:

Nobody cares. If people engage in violence they get arrested. Nothing to do with mid terms. Biden is desperate. Having a voting choice equals democracy. Obviously Biden is a dictator and anti democratic. He doesn't think people should have a choice.

My post was responding to someone else who mentioned Capitol Hill. Those who feared for their lives, ie Pence, Nancy, all those who had to barricade themselves in including the secret service cared.

 

On the election:

Conservative group finds ‘absolutely no evidence of widespread fraud’ in 2020 election

Eight prominent conservatives released a 72-page report Thursday refuting claims of election fraud in the 2020 presidential election in dozens of unsuccessful court cases brought forth by former President Trump and his allies.

The group — which includes former federal judges, Republican senators and Republican-appointed officials — said they reviewed all 64 court cases Trump and his allies initiated challenging the election outcome, saying they had reached an “unequivocal” conclusion that the claims were unsupported by evidence.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3559758-conservative-group-finds-absolutely-no-evidence-of-widespread-fraud-in-2020-election/

 

Fact check: Courts have dismissed multiple lawsuits of alleged electoral fraud presented by Trump campaign

As reported by Reuters   here  , state and federal judges - some appointed by Trump - dismissed more than 50 lawsuits brought by Trump or his allies alleging election fraud and other irregularities.

Independent experts, governors and state election officials from both parties say there was no evidence of widespread fraud.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-courts-election-idUSKBN2AF1G1

5 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Nobody cares. If people engage in violence they get arrested. Nothing to do with mid terms. Biden is desperate. Having a voting choice equals democracy. Obviously Biden is a dictator and anti democratic. He doesn't think people should have a choice.

Pointing out that voting for a party that is actively working to deny citizens the right to vote is putting democrat risk is not, in any rational world, ‘anti democratic’.

 

If a raving communist party was standing for election I doubt very much that you’d object to other parties warned that voting for the raving communists would put democracy at risk.

 

https://www.democracydocket.com/opinion/republican-anti-voting-lawsuits-pile-up-in-2022/

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/08/03/brennan-center-report-voting-restrictions-prevalent-gop-states/10226602002/

 

https://www.vox.com/22463490/voting-rights-democracy-texas-georgia-suppression-jim-crow-supreme-court-sb7