Should I let my drivers license from back home expire and just have the Thai DL?

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

In a nutshell... No your license isn't "Legal"... It has to be registered at you permanent address, but the chances of getting caught are probably 0.01%

Does the DVLA give any mention of ‘permanent address’  ?? or is that ’your take on it’ ???

 

The DL has to be registered at a UK address....

 

I haven’t seen anything yet which would suggest having a UK driving licence registered to an address we live at ’sometimes’ (whenever in the UK) is illegal.

There is no ’time stipulation’ which suggest we have to be living at that address for 6 months per year (or whatever) for the licence to be valid. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

FWIW I let my UK license lapse 23/12/2013 as I was in a dispute with HMRC about claiming Income tax back whilst being overseas so I decided not to give UK gov any chance of denying my claim... Again the chance of them catching me out was probably 0.01%  

Can the Inland Revenue use ’driving licence status' to decide your tax residency?... especially when you can prove you are not in the UK for more than 91 days per-year. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I own a house in the UK plus have all of my UK financial things registered at my parents address Plus could provide proof of ownership of that address & payment of all the utility bills (I'm named after my dad )

 

Reality is I'm not a UK resident & you're even more not a UK Resident as you have a work permit here. 

 

Reality #2 Is when it comes to driving license it doesn't matter.... Until it does... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I have a work permit makes no difference. If I was from Singapore and commuted to Thailand every day, or lived in London and commuted to New York, I'd still need a work permit.  I also pay taxes in both countries. 

Very few people have residency in Thailand - they are immigrants byt not so under Thai law.

 

The salient points on this thread are: - 

 

I - You don't invalidate your UK licence when living/staying abroad - renewal can be done online.

• a valid UK passport
• to be a resident of Great Britain - there’s a different service in Northern Ireland
• to pay £14 by MasterCard, Visa, Electron or Delta debit or credit card (there’s no fee if you’re over 70 or have a medical short period licence)
• addresses of where you’ve lived over the last 3 years
• your current driving licence (if you do not have your licence you must say why in your application)
• your National Insurance number (if you know it)
• to not be disqualified from driving - (DVLA)

2- Many UK expats don't realise there [pink plastic licence only lasts for 10 years.

3 - If you live over 90 days on Thailand you need to get a Thai licence

4 - An IDP if only valid as long as the licence it covers is valid

 

Your driving licence should arrive within a week if you apply online.

Edited December 4, 2022 by kwilco

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I own a house in the UK plus have all of my UK financial things registered at my parents address Plus could provide proof of ownership of that address & payment of all the utility bills (I'm named after my dad )

 

Reality is I'm not a UK resident & you're even more not a UK Resident as you have a work permit here. 

 

Reality #2 Is when it comes to driving license it doesn't matter.... Until it does... 

 

At one point this year I held legal residency in 3 separate countries outside of the UK. 

 

Example: Someone who works on Rotation in Dubai, has UAE residency, and can still live in the UK - thus the ‘work permit’ angle is not right. 

 

I could be work permitted in Thailand and travel back and forth to the UK, still living in the UK.

 

Thus, our UK licence is not voided just because we have legal residency in another country.

 

 

 

 

On this thread is seems some are ‘digging’ really hard to try and find a reason how someones UK Driving Licence may not be valid.

 

So far, the only reason a UK driving license may not be valid is if someone doesn’t have, or no longer has a UK address at which to register the licence. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

I think what's emerging on this thread is that a lot of expats are beginning to realise they aren't driving legally in Thailand by relying on their home licence or IDP and have lost their licence back home by failing to renew it.

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Does the DVLA give any mention of ‘permanent address’  ?? or is that ’your take on it’ ???

 

The DL has to be registered at a UK address....

 

I haven’t seen anything yet which would suggest having a UK driving licence registered to an address we live at ’sometimes’ (whenever in the UK) is illegal.

There is no ’time stipulation’ which suggest we have to be living at that address for 6 months per year (or whatever) for the licence to be valid. 

 

 

Can the Inland Revenue use ’driving licence status' to decide your tax residency?... especially when you can prove you are not in the UK for more than 91 days per-year. 

LicenSe... 

 

To answer the Tax point, I was in a dispute with HMRC about a year that I'd spent not being Tax resident anywhere as I was bouncing around a lot of countries with work & ended up spending less than 30 days in the UK before moving to Singapore & paying Tax on my salary there. So I decided I wasn't going to risk giving them any ammunition by claiming (by virtue of updating my driving license) to live in the UK..

 

Again chances of this being a problem are about 0.01% - Chances of me getting a 25K tax refund are 100% (Spent already)... 

 

LOL at the simple "Spend 91 days in the UK" as being some sort of magic formula for being or not being UK Resident for Tax 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Mike Teavee

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

I think what's emerging on this thread is that a lot of expats are beginning to realise they aren't driving legally in Thailand by relying on their home licence or IDP and have lost their licence back home by failing to renew it.

 

 

License please! 

 

I had no idea that I couldn't just drive anywhere for any length of time on my UK driving license until I went to hire a car in Singapore & was told that I needed to convert my UK license to a Singaporean one as I'd been living there for > 6 months.

 

I think in Thailand you get 12 months before you have/are supposed to convert to a Thai one...  

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

At one point this year I held legal residency in 3 separate countries outside of the UK. 

 

Example: Someone who works on Rotation in Dubai, has UAE residency, and can still live in the UK - thus the ‘work permit’ angle is not right. 

 

I could be work permitted in Thailand and travel back and forth to the UK, still living in the UK.

 

Thus, our UK licence is not voided just because we have legal residency in another country.

 

 

 

 

On this thread is seems some are ‘digging’ really hard to try and find a reason how someones UK Driving Licence may not be valid.

 

So far, the only reason a UK driving license may not be valid is if someone doesn’t have, or no longer has a UK address at which to register the licence. 

 

License

 

Ok my situation is this... 

1. I own a house in the UK that I rent out - This is the house that my UK Pink license was registered to but I am not registered as living there for any purposes except being the owner
2. All of my UK correspondence addresses are to my parents house, this it the address my Green license is registered to but I am not registered as living there for any purposes except being the child of my parents.

Could I get by using either of these addresses - YES, would it be strictly legal - NO,  £1,000 fine for not having the correct address on my driving license

 

 

Quick question, are you still registered at that UK address & paying the appropriate council tax there? If not then you are not resident there... 

 

 

 

[macahoom]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

License please! 

 

Ha! You gotta laugh at Americans attempting to teach Brits how to spell!

 

Or even worse: A Brit teaching Brits how to spell!

 

License is both a noun and a verb in the United States. If you live in any other English-speaking country, like the UK, it's spelt licence when used as a noun and license when used as a verb.

Edited December 5, 2022 by macahoom

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, macahoom said:

Ha! You gotta laugh at Americans attempting to teach Brits how to spell!

 

Or even worse: A Brit teaching Brits how to spell!

 

License is both a noun and a verb in the United States. If you live in any other English-speaking country, like the UK, it's spelt licence when used as a noun and license when used as a verb.

Mea culpa 

 

In my defence I am having a Red wine Hangover morning plus using a new phone so haven’t changed the language on the spell checker but I’ll take that on the chin (& I am a Brit ????)

 

 

[IvorBiggun2]

License/licence! What does it matter? We got the posters drift.

[Mike Teavee]

The address you have on your licence  (????)  is obviously of material interest to your Insurance company as somebody living in small town would pay considerably less insurance for the same car than they would if they lived in the middle of London/Manchester/Liverpool etc... a quick google search says that somebody living in the South West would pay less than 1/2 of what somebody would pay living in Greater London... 

 https://www.comparethemarket.com/car-insurance/content/the-cheapest-postcodes-for-car-insurance/

 

 

 

 

So in the event of a serious accident (where the insurance company has to pay out a lot of money) I would assume that they are going to scrutinise all of your details including checking to see that you actually live where you claim to live & if you cannot show this then i can't see them paying out. 

 

 

End of the day, legally you cannot renew your UK license unless  you live in the UK, when you try to one of the 1st things they ask you to declare is your home address & how long you have lived there for... Obviously you can lie & the chances of getting caught are more or less 0 but the fact remains that you cannot legally renew your UK license unless you live in the UK - I believe the criteria is you need to have lived in the UK for 185 days in the previous 12 months but I can't find where I read that now. 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Mike Teavee

[sometimewoodworker]

12 hours ago, kwilco said:

Ah - that's rubbish

you seem to be making a lot of unsubstantiated statements, just repeating what I said or not understanding what you dug up on Google.

For someone who claims to have once been a magistrate in the U.K. you are certainly mistaken and misinformed

 

12 hours ago, kwilco said:

I've always had a valid address in UK and an address in Thailand - I'm not a Thai resident or citizen, but had a work permit which had my Thai address on it -

 Not being a Thai resident (The Thai tax office has a rather different opinion, but it doesn’t matter) does not provide proof of residence in any other country. You can in fact be non resident in all countries.

 

You may have a U.K. address (I have a couple) however it is extremely unlikely that you are a resident of Great Britain, as a resident of Great Britain, you will be paying Council Tax, along with paying U.K. tax on your Thai income as a U.K. resident.

 

see HMRC Guidance note for residence under

 

So are you stating that you pay council tax and U.K. income tax as a resident of the U.K.? So your “valid” U.K. address is actually a valid home address for DVLA purposes?

 

I certainly do not and my “valid” U.K. (I own the properties) address is not a valid home address for DVLA purposes. I also have been non-resident and not ordinarily resident in the U.K. for somewhat over 30 years so my non U.K. income is not taxable in the U.K. it is almost certainly not taxable in Thailand as I don’t get income remittances in the year they are earned and do not earn in Thailand.

Quote

1.3 When you’re UK resident you’re normally taxed on the arising basis of taxation. This means that all your worldwide income and gains will be taxable in the UK. Therefore, even if your foreign income and gains have already been taxed in another country they will still be taxable in the UK and you must declare all of your foreign income and gains on your tax return

[sometimewoodworker]

37 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

the fact remains that you cannot legally renew your UK license unless you live in the UK - I believe the criteria is you need to have lived in the UK for 185 days in the previous 12 months but I can't find where I read that now. 

The view is that you are resident from the day you return if you have the intention of staying so you should then renew you licence or change your address if needed. the 185 days (I quoted the information in this thread) is the point at which you become resident  if you are backwards and forwards to the U.K. ‘You’re normally a resident if you live in Great Britain for 185 days in each calendar year.’

 

The confusion arises with the different definitions of residency between HMRC for tax the DVLA for licenses and other body’s opinions.

 

It is really sad that someone who has claimed to have been a magistrate should be so ignorant of the law.

 

As you say the chances of getting found out a vanishingly small if you aren’t involved in an accident with serious money involved or involved with the police where they need to confirm you actual address. Thousands are illegally claiming U.K. residency for the DVLA without any problem. Note if you are not resident in the U.K. you commit an offence by not informing the DVLA. if you do not inform the DVLA your license is no longer valid.

The U.K. license requires you to notify the DVLA of any changes that affect your right to hold the licence. The fact that your license doesn’t expire with time until age 70 does not trump the requirements.

 

 

[Orinoco]

14 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The view is that you are resident from the day you return if you have the intention of staying so you should then renew you licence or change your address if needed. the 185 days (I quoted the information in this thread) is the point at which you become resident  if you are backwards and forwards to the U.K. ‘You’re normally a resident if you live in Great Britain for 185 days in each calendar year.’

Last time I looked the uk residents test is 183 or more days. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Orinoco

[JBChiangRai]

11 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

Last time I looked the uk residents test is 183 or more days. 

I wouldn't bother arguing with him, he's as thick as the wood he works with

[sometimewoodworker]

56 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

Last time I looked the uk residents test is 183 or more days. 

The tax residency (183 days) is different from the DVLA residency (185 days) 

 

So we are both correct, but since this about the DVLA not HMRC I am more correct ???? 

[sometimewoodworker]

6 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I think in Thailand you get 12 months before you have/are supposed to convert to a Thai one...  

the situation in Thailand is rather less than positively defined.

 

the RTP (boys in brown) will generally accept any license that is still valid specially if accompanied by an IDP and in English.

 

the Thai insurance companies that provide the insurance that you want ( first class, second class and 3rd class) have a clause that requires anyone who has been in Thailand for 90 days to have a Thai license. This like other Thai requirements has varied enforcement, though it is extremely probable that if there is a substantial claim it will be rigorously enforced. as far as I know the legally required insurance (a few hundred Baht) is valid as long as the car is taxed and covers any driver (it may even cover unlicensed and DUI drivers)

It is also common for a licensed or sober driver to claim to have been driving in the event that an unlicensed or drunk driver has an accident, for insurance purposes 

[sometimewoodworker]

For what it is worth.

 

Ignorance of the law is no excuse or defence.

I have knowingly failed in my duty to notify the DVLA of a material change in my circumstances for the last 32 years.

the important point is highlighted 

 

I do not try to Wiesel out of my inaction. Nor do I claim that my U.K. licence should not have been declared invalid 32 years ago. I have used the invalid licence to hire cars in the U.K. I have always had a valid non U.K. license for the 32 years so the only possible offence I have committed would have been misrepresentation to the hire company, I suspect that this maybe a civil offence if indeed it is one as I always showed my valid non U.K. license.

 

[Negita43]

Why does a simple question generate so much animosity? I thought forums were for exchange of information/opinion in an adult manner and without rancour. Say you piece and leave in peace.

[seedy]

3 minutes ago, Negita43 said:

Why does a simple question generate so much animosity? I thought forums were for exchange of information/opinion in an adult manner and without rancour. Say you piece and leave in peace.

Some people have an Ego which will not tolerate anyone disagreeing with them on any matter, no matter how small and/or trivial.

They go on Ad Infinitum when the first challenge appears to what they say, what they do, what they think, ...

I think their biological clock keeps on ticking, but the maturity one stopped when they were about 12 years old.

So they pout, show Arrogance, belittle others, just to salve that black-and-blue bruised core of their Ego.

[richard_smith237]

8 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

License

 

Ok my situation is this... 

1. I own a house in the UK that I rent out - This is the house that my UK Pink license was registered to but I am not registered as living there for any purposes except being the owner
2. All of my UK correspondence addresses are to my parents house, this it the address my Green license is registered to but I am not registered as living there for any purposes except being the child of my parents.

Could I get by using either of these addresses - YES, would it be strictly legal - NO,  £1,000 fine for not having the correct address on my driving license

Well, it appears you have a two UK licences... 

The Green&Pink Paper Licence (registered at your parents house) is no longer valid.

It would be superseded by the Pink Licence which is registered at your ‘rental property’.

 

Thus: I your case, I’d agree that no, you are not living at that property.

IF your Pink Card Licence was registered at your parents property, you could claim that is your UK address (If my comments below are not incorrect). 

 

 

8 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Quick question, are you still registered at that UK address & paying the appropriate council tax there? If not then you are not resident there... 

I’m not sure the payment of council tax has any relevance to the DVLA and licensing.

 

Paying council tax also depends on your ‘earning status’ thus... IF not earning in the UK and living with your parents when in the UK - I don’t believe there is any requirement to pay council tax. 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

8 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

If not then you are not resident there... 

Another point which may be relevant is as word we are throwing around... ‘Resident’... 

 

Does the DVLA state we must have resident status in the UK to hold a UK licence. 

OR, do we just have to have a UK address ?

(i.e. are some people making up their own statements and presenting them as fact ?).

 

The two separate terms ‘UK address' and 'Resident status’ have different implications. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

3 hours ago, Orinoco said:

Last time I looked the uk residents test is 183 or more days. 

I'm not sure the DVLA applies any relevance to ‘resident status’...

 

Additionally - IF true and the UK DVLA were to stipulate that a person has to be a UK resident for a minimum of 183 days per year, then that would prevent all rotational workers from being able to get a UK licence....

 

(i.e. those working a month on and month off - i.e. O&G workers, those working on ships etc)

 

This is obviously not the case. 

 

[Kwasaki]

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Another point which may be relevant is as word we are throwing around... ‘Resident’... 

 

Does the DVLA state we must have resident status in the UK to hold a UK licence. 

OR, do we just have to have a UK address ?

(i.e. are some people making up their own statements and presenting them as fact ?).

 

The two separate terms ‘UK address' and 'Resident status’ have different implications. 

There is a DVLA website. 

From what I remember what I read was to give the wrong address for a UK DL is an offence.

 

Also if out of the country for more than 2 years you should use your UK DL to get a DL in the country you staying in. 

 

If you return UK you can get your UK DL back. 

 

This was some 15 years ago when It looked.

 

I don't need my UK DL anymore.

[richard_smith237]

13 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

There is a DVLA website. 

From what I remember what I read was to give the wrong address for a UK DL is an offence.

 

Also if out of the country for more than 2 years you should use your UK DL to get a DL in the country you staying in. 

 

If you return UK you can get your UK DL back. 

 

This was some 15 years ago when It looked.

 

I don't need my UK DL anymore.

I get that... but it also seems there is a ‘large grey area’...  which may not even be a grey area.

 

There is no mention of ’duration’ made by the DVLA as far as I can tell.

 

Thus: for the purposes of the DVLA and holding a UK Driving Licence I have not yet seen anything which provides clarity and suggests that its incorrect or illegal to use our UK address if we stay at that same address intermittently throughout the year (i.e. twice per year, a few weeks in winter and a few weeks in summer). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

32 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

There is a DVLA website. 

From what I remember what I read was to give the wrong address for a UK DL is an offence.

 

Also if out of the country for more than 2 years you should use your UK DL to get a DL in the country you staying in. 

 

If you return UK you can get your UK DL back. 

 

This was some 15 years ago when It looked.

 

I don't need my UK DL anymore.

So, if you hadn't read it would it still be illegal. 

 

When I was applying for US DL I used a PO Box that looked like a physical address, the lady just looks at me and goes "so, you live in a box", I profusely apologized and gave her a different physical address. But the PO box is on my license.  

[richard_smith237]

4 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

So, if you hadn't read it would it still be illegal. 

 

When I was applying for US DL I used a PO Box that looked like a physical address, the lady just looks at me and goes "so, you live in a box", I profusely apologized and gave her a different physical address. But the PO box is on my license.  

Seems they weren’t so bothered about you having your UK DL at a PO box !!!...  and here we are discussing the issue in great detail, perhaps more detailed or bothered about it than the DVLA are !!! 

 

But, for the purposes of the discussion... there are unanswered questions. 

 

I'm still wondering... 

 

If I live at that UK address for 6 months a year is the UK DL Legal ?

If I live at that UK address for 4 months a year is the UK DL Legal ?

If I live at that UK address for 2 months a year is the UK DL Legal ?

If I live at that UK address for 7 weeks a year is the UK DL Legal ?

 

Is there a cut off ??? at which point the DVLA classify a person as ’not living at an address’ thus voiding their driving licence ????

 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by richard_smith237

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

I get that... but it also seems there is a ‘large grey area’...  which may not even be a grey area.

 

There is no mention of ’duration’ made by the DVLA as far as I can tell.

 

Thus: for the purposes of the DVLA and holding a UK Driving Licence I have not yet seen anything which provides clarity and suggests that its incorrect or illegal to use our UK address if we stay at that same address intermittently throughout the year (i.e. twice per year, a few weeks in winter and a few weeks in summer). 

 

Without looking into it again I cannot comment further.

 

I just remember the 2 year period being mentioned.

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Kwasaki

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

I'm still wondering... 

 

If I live at that UK address for 6 months a year is the UK DL Legal ?

If I live at that UK address for 4 months a year is the UK DL Legal ?

If I live at that UK address for 2 months a year is the UK DL Legal ?

If I live at that UK address for 7 weeks a year is the UK DL Legal ?

The answers are not so difficult 

1) if your 6 months is 185 days or more you are a British resident at that address, so yes, if less than 185 days see 2, 3, 4.

2) if you pay council tax and U.K. tax on income as a U.K. resident and you are a resident of Great Britain, yes

3) if you pay council tax and U.K. tax on income as a U.K. resident a resident of Great Britain, yes

4) if you pay council tax and U.K. tax on income as a U.K. resident a resident of Great Britain, yes

2, 3, 4) if you do not pay council tax and U.K. tax on income as a U.K. resident and you do not live at another U.K. address then you do not have a valid U.K. license as you have a duty to report a change of address and you must  be a resident of Great Britain 

Edited December 5, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I’m not sure the payment of council tax has any relevance to the DVLA and licensing.

It obviously doesn't have anything to do with DVLA BUT it would show if you were "Officially" resident at that address as irrespective of whether you have to pay council tax or not all adults who live at that address should be registered for council tax there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I'm not sure the DVLA applies any relevance to ‘resident status’...

 

Additionally - IF true and the UK DVLA were to stipulate that a person has to be a UK resident for a minimum of 183 days per year, then that would prevent all rotational workers from being able to get a UK licence....

 

(i.e. those working a month on and month off - i.e. O&G workers, those working on ships etc)

 

This is obviously not the case. 

 

I believe the 183 day residency requirement is for renewing the license but as been mentioned, if you're repatriating then you can renew your license immediately. 

 

I would assume that the rules around being able to prove your repatriating are similar to the ones that allow you access to NHS immediately on your return - E.g have to be able to show that you have long term accommodation available to you.