If Wife Dies Before Me.

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

Quote

 If there is more than one heir in any one class, they take an equal share of the entitlement available to that class. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir but their entitlement depends on what other class of statutory heir exists. If there are surviving children of the deceased, the spouse and children take the estate between them. Therefore, if there are three children, then the estate is divided in to four equal shares.

https://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html

Having a Will will negate any such confusion.

Not according to "Thai Law for Foreigners", page 80, spouse will be left 50 percent and children shares 50 percent...

 

 

That is in principle also what the linked text says: "If there is more than one heir in any one class, they take an equal share of the entitlement available to that class" – spouse is one class, children is another class; i.e. 50 percent to each class...????

[NoshowJones]

14 hours ago, khunPer said:

She can make a Last Will, if no Last Will the husband gets 50 percent and children shares 50 percent.

I do not thing that is the case at all. You are saying that if I leave things as they are and my wife dies, I get 50% of the ownership of the house, and her two children who are adults will get 25% each.

I do not know where you got that from, it is just not true.

[tandor]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

Usufructs, like 30 year leases, are drafted at the land office and become part of the chanote. The amphur does not, and need not, get involved.

Well...i already stated i did mine at the Amphur which has a Land Office (Sankamphaeng).

[khunPer]

1 minute ago, NoshowJones said:

I do not thing that is the case at all. You are saying that if I leave things as they are and my wife dies, I get 50% of the ownership of the house, and her two children who are adults will get 25% each.

I do not know where you got that from, it is just not true.

See here (Thai Law for Foreigners, page 80)...

 

[khunPer]

2 minutes ago, tandor said:

Well...i already stated i did mine at the Amphur ok!

A servitude – like usufruct – is registered at the land office; the amphor-office has nothing to do with land title deeds...????

[JimGant]

My reference, giving you, the spouse, only one/third derives --if she has two living children -- from the actual code language of section 1635:

 

Quote

The surviving spouse is entitled to the inheritance of the deceased in the class and according to the division as hereunder provided:

 1.   If there is an heir according to Section 1629 (1) surviving or having representatives as the case may be, such surviving spouse is entitled to the same share as an heir in the degree of children;
2.   If there is an heir according to Section 1629 (3) and such heir is surviving or has representatives, or if in default of an heir according to Section 1629 (1), there is an heir according to Section 1629 (2) as the case may be, such surviving spouse is entitled to one half of the inheritance;
3.   If there is an heir according to Section 1629 (4) or (6) and such heir is surviving or has representatives, or if there is an heir according to Section 1629 (5) as the case may be, such surviving spouse is entitled to two-thirds of the inheritance;
4.    If there is no heir as specified in Section 1629, such surviving spouse is entitled to the whole inheritance.

https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/civil-and-commercial-code-statutory-heirs-section-1635-1638/

 

Thus, from para 1, above, if wife died intestate with children, her property is divided into equal shares between spouse and children. One kid, you'd get 50%; two kids, you'd get one/third.

 

From para 2, involving parents and siblings (and no children), you'd get 50%.

 

From para 3, involving half-blood siblings, grandparents, aunts and uncles -- you'd get two/thirds.

 

And from para 4, you'd get it all if no statutory heirs other than yourself.

 

 

Bottom line: There are references out there that don't agree on who gets what in intestate situations. Solution: Don't die intestate, i.e., write a Will.

[tandor]

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

A servitude – like usufruct – is registered at the land office; the amphor-office has nothing to do with land title deeds...????

I already explained at Sankamphaeng Provincial Offices grounds is the main Amphur Office, and the Provincial Land Office on the left side as turn in off the 1006 road. To make a Usufruct there is much simpler because your Chanote is stored there. If you choose to go to City Hall at Mae Rim you can do it there, but it will take much longer as they need to get your Chanote from Sankampaeng to endorse it, plus the fee is much higher. I hope this clarifies the matter.

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, tandor said:

I already explained at Sankamphaeng Provincial Offices grounds is the main Amphur Office, and the Provincial Land Office on the left side as turn in off the 1006 road. To make a Usufruct there is much simpler because your Chanote is stored there. If you choose to go to City Hall at Mae Rim you can do it there, but it will take much longer as they need to get your Chanote from Sankampaeng to endorse it, plus the fee is much higher. I hope this clarifies the matter.

 

It certainly clarifies it for me.

 

You have described what, where and how you did it, and yes it was reasonably simple as both offices are in the same vicinity.

 

Why other people may not believe you, is that for them the Provincial Amphur office and the Provincial Land office may be kms apart.

[connda]

On 12/13/2022 at 4:00 PM, Sheryl said:

For the wife obviously not a threat in that sense since it pertains to after she has died. But most Thais do not find it easy or natural to discuss after death arrangements and many do believe it will in effect jinx them

My wife must not be a 'real' Thai.  We discuss death and post-death often enough as we age.
Actually, "most Thais" I know (out here in the rice-fields of Northern Thailand) are pretty matter-of-fact about death and dying.  Cosmopolitanism Thais may have a different view.
It's just the way it is.  We have also contributed to buy coffins for poor and indigent people.
Death is a fact of life in a village.  During the year there is a steady stream of dead bodies taken to the local temple to lay is state for 3, 5, 7 or whatever lucky number the family and monks chooses, after which they are hauled down the road through the middle of the village to the crematorium.  Fireworks, chanting, gifts for monks, last viewing, and in to the cosmic cooker, more fireworks to send the departed off - then generally a party that night.
So I've never found "most Thais" queasy about talking about death at all.  "Most Thais" I've met (at least Buddhist villagers) have a pretty healthy view of death, i.e., death is just part of life (birth, ageing, sickness, death - it's the way of it).
The people I find who are morbid and reluctant to discuss death are most Westerners that I know.  Most Westerners I know consider death to be this one-off event that needs to avoided at all costs.  Compared to the rather festive affairs that the normal 3 day funeral ceremonies are in Thai villages, comparable funeral ceremonies in the US are just horribly morbid affairs.

So it's good to see farangs come to grips with their mortality and finally get to the point where they are willing to discuss Last Wills, Living Wills, Usufructs, what to do with your dead body, and eventual probate for those who are left.  Those who can't discuss this with their Thai families and leave it up to a Thai probate court are going to be in for a shock.

[hotandsticky]

11 minutes ago, connda said:

My wife must not be a 'real' Thai.  We discuss death and post-death often enough as we age.
Actually, "most Thais" I know (out here in the rice-fields of Northern Thailand) are pretty matter-of-fact about death and dying.  Cosmopolitanism Thais may have a different view.
It's just the way it is.  We have also contributed to buy coffins for poor and indigent people.
Death is a fact of life in a village.  During the year there is a steady stream of dead bodies taken to the local temple to lay is state for 3, 5, 7 or whatever lucky number the family and monks chooses, after which they are hauled down the road through the middle of the village to the crematorium.  Fireworks, chanting, gifts for monks, last viewing, and in to the cosmic cooker, more fireworks to send the departed off - then generally a party that night.
So I've never found "most Thais" queasy about talking about death at all.  "Most Thais" I've met (at least Buddhist villagers) have a pretty healthy view of death, i.e., death is just part of life (birth, ageing, sickness, death - it's the way of it).
The people I find who are morbid and reluctant to discuss death are most Westerners that I know.  Most Westerners I know consider death to be this one-off event that needs to avoided at all costs.  Compared to the rather festive affairs that the normal 3 day funeral ceremonies are in Thai villages, comparable funeral ceremonies in the US are just horribly morbid affairs.

So it's good to see farangs come to grips with their mortality and finally get to the point where they are willing to discuss Last Wills, Living Wills, Usufructs, what to do with your dead body, and eventual probate for those who are left.  Those who can't discuss this with their Thai families and leave it up to a Thai probate court are going to be in for a shock.

 

 

Confirm - your wife is 'different'. Well done for discussing post-death matters.

 

You will understand that "most (rural) Thais" are not so comfortable. In many cases they don't understand the process and effect of bereavement of their Farang - in many cases the Farang is not good at explaining these. When Buddhism says that you go to a next life (and that life is going to better because they tamboon often) it is difficult to deal with the cold reality of death.

 

I have seen several situations where things have not worked out as intended following a death of a Thai. My wife's family is one example where a house did not get transferred to the intended beneficiary. My wife has done nothing about arranging a Will to ensure that, as per her wishes,  her nephews inherit her property. 

[scorecard]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:32 AM, tandor said:

Create an Usufruct between you/your wife and have it drafted and registered at the local Provincial Amphur Office. Your name will then appear on the Chanote enabling you to live there unrestricted for up to 30 years, or whatever period you nominate. It is more or less a fully paid up front rental contract.

It can be registered/noted etc., at the amphur office but to be valid/enforceable it must be added/noted/written on the original land title deed at the Land Titles office. The fee (at the LAnd Titles office is very small, from memory 100 or 200Baht.

[liddelljohn]

My wife made a will  house comes to me , I then have 2 options   put it into a LTD Company or into my Thai Daughters name and she signs USUFRUCT

19 years ago her mother  put 3 rai of land near Kabinburi to me ,, I then had 365 days to either sell it   which I did to my wifes brother   for 180,000..

[hotandsticky]

4 minutes ago, liddelljohn said:

My wife made a will  house comes to me , I then have 2 options   put it into a LTD Company or into my Thai Daughters name and she signs USUFRUCT

19 years ago her mother  put 3 rai of land near Kabinburi to me ,, I then had 365 days to either sell it   which I did to my wifes brother   for 180,000..

 

Could the house not be bequeathed to your daughter, with rights of lifetime occupation for you?

 

 

(i accept that a usufruct/superficiary achieves the same)

[NoshowJones]

On 12/16/2022 at 12:05 PM, hotandsticky said:

 

Could the house not be bequeathed to your daughter, with rights of lifetime occupation for you?

 

 

(i accept that a usufruct/superficiary achieves the same)

There are so many different ways here, my opinion now is a court will make up it's own rules and the judge will decide. This is Thailand. IMO. At the end of the day rules, wills and signatures will not matter, as I said it will be up to the judge.

[scorecard]

On 12/13/2022 at 3:53 PM, Sheryl said:

Thai law is quite clear that a long term lease is not the same as land ownership.

 

Indeed, the land can be sold even while the lease is in effect and nothing the lessee can do to stop it (though they will continue to have the legal right to live there for rest of the lease duration.) 

 

Take those youtube videos with a grain of salt. They are a form of advertisement. 

 

And just because it's mentioned on a Youtube video doesn't ever mean it's legally or morally correct or safe. The world is awash with false information and with various types of 'influencers' paid to convince people whatever is in the interests of the principal employing the influencer. 

 

I'm sure many folk will recall the hundreds of cases reported previously in the Thai media where celebrities are paid to appear on TV/ on shopping sites / social media / youtube etc., etc., making big statements about the 'magical' effects of various creams/lotions/pills/coffees etc. A very large % had no proof to share or valid proven evidence and had never used the products.

 

A Chinese female colleague came from Hong Kong to help my office with a complex project. She went shopping on a Sunday, Monday brought a suitcase of creams, lipsticks etc., to theoffice, so proud of the quantity and claims influencers/stall holders had spun and the small price.

 

At lunch time a couple of out local Female staff sat with her to investigate whether any of these products had ever been certified as safe and certified to be sold, by the Thai administration. None! Also discovered many of the creams, pills etc had ingredients which are actually banned by Thai law.  

[hotandsticky]

5 hours ago, NoshowJones said:

There are so many different ways here, my opinion now is a court will make up it's own rules and the judge will decide. This is Thailand. IMO. At the end of the day rules, wills and signatures will not matter, as I said it will be up to the judge.

Thailand has very clear laws and very clear rules of intestacy. That said, ultimate power rests with a court - which is ultimately responsible for granting Probate. 

 

Wills and signatures DO matter, and will always matter. 

 

Anyone would be foolish to doubt the legal validity of leases and usufructs. My partner could sell 'our' land even with the existence of the usufruct in my favour....that is little different to someone in the west selling a house with a sitting tenant. Nobody in their right mind would buy 'our' land subject to my rights of occupation and to the 'fruits of the land'.

 

(My partner calls the land 'ours' - I don't, it is hers).