Germany set to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, Der Spiegel reports

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, bangon04 said:

If the "western" countries such as Poland and Bulgaria and Slovakia and Slovenia sent 1000 T72s immediately it would make a difference because the Ukrainians are already well-trained to make use of them. The Leopards and Challengers could replace them slowly......

I disagree, they would be picked off like tin ducks in a sideshow. That's what's happened to hundreds of Russian T72's. At best that might result in a WW1 style stalemate. They need the leopards and challengers now.

[sqwakvfr]

1 hour ago, Phoenix Rising said:

It takes much less time to retrain a soldier who's already a tank mechanic on a different model than someone just out of basic training who's starting from scratch.

I would disagree because of the vast differences between the Leopard 2 and T series from the Soviet era.  I was tanker in the Army Reserve and when my unit transitioned from M-60 tank(diesel engines)to the M1A1(Turbine Engines) back in the early 90’s it was like going from an old VW to a Ferrari. Just learning the main gun and its systems were challenging.  We were not certified for 18 months.  Most active duty Army units took much less.  The new radios in the M1A gave us some fits and we had a lot of growing pains.  I’m certain the Leopard 2 manuals have not been published in Ukrainian yet? 

[Yme]

9 hours ago, bannork said:

 

So that only leaves the roughly six months it takes to train a person for one position in a crew of four: plus mechanics. Otherwise they're just very expensive targets. 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Yme said:

So that only leaves the roughly six months it takes to train a person for one position in a crew of four: plus mechanics. Otherwise they're just very expensive targets. 

 

There's a link in here somewhere which quotes 6 weeks max. Do you have a link?

[Phoenix Rising]

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Describes Joe Biden to a tee.

You must be either very confused or very dishonest.

[Bkk Brian]

Germany is sending its first batch of Leopards from its military stock, they are not in storage and they are ready to go. Just training now which according to the  International Institute for Strategic Studies estimates that three to six weeks of training would be needed for operating crews and support staff to reach basic proficiency.

 

Ralf Raths, director of the Panzer Museum in Munster, Germany, said experienced Ukrainian tank crews would likely be able to learn to use the Leopard 2 fairly quickly, and training could be shortened to focus on essential knowledge.

 

 

 

[ozimoron]

After weeks of hesitation that saw growing impatience among Germany’s allies, Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced Wednesday that his government would provide Ukraine with Leopard 2 battle tanks and approve requests by other countries to do the same.

In a statement, the government said it would initially provide Ukraine with one company of Leopard 2 A6 tanks, which comprises 14 vehicles, from its own stocks. The goal is for Germany and its allies to provide Ukraine with a total of two battalions, or 88 tanks.

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-german-tanks-435da2221bf452a8aae9d2e58d23acae?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=TopNews&utm_campaign=position_04

[starsconty]

I went to the US Army Armor school many years ago.  It can take up to month or more to train people to operate, maintain and ultimately use the weapons in any tank.  I realize some Ukrainians have experience in tanks but those were made in Russia.  Best case scenario is at least 60 days before any western tanks are deployed in combat.  Any earlier would be unwise. 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, starsconty said:

I went to the US Army Armor school many years ago.  It can take up to month or more to train people to operate, maintain and ultimately use the weapons in any tank.  I realize some Ukrainians have experience in tanks but those were made in Russia.  Best case scenario is at least 60 days before any western tanks are deployed in combat.  Any earlier would be unwise. 

Welcome to the forum. Isee this is your first post.

 

May I point out that the rules here require links to any claim of fact.

 

Here is what one of those links looks like and the story will give you some insight into why we like links to facts around these parts.

 

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/how_long_will_it_take_to_train_ukrainian_tankers_to_use_german_leopard_2_tanks-5536.html

Edited January 25, 2023 by ozimoron

[transam]

8 minutes ago, starsconty said:

I went to the US Army Armor school many years ago.  It can take up to month or more to train people to operate, maintain and ultimately use the weapons in any tank.  I realize some Ukrainians have experience in tanks but those were made in Russia.  Best case scenario is at least 60 days before any western tanks are deployed in combat.  Any earlier would be unwise. 

Interesting point......

 

Forget the post above, there probably is no link to you attending your tank course..

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, transam said:

Interesting point......

 

Forget the post above, there probably is no link to you attending your tank course..

Ralf Raths, director of the Panzer Museum in Munster, Germany, said experienced Ukrainian tank crews would likely be able to learn to use the Leopard 2 fairly quickly, and training could be shortened to focus on essential knowledge.

 

French President Emmanuel Macron said Sunday that he had asked his defense minister to “work on” the idea of sending some of France’s Leclerc battle tanks to Ukraine.

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-military-technology-european-union-germany-611c4cddd142db39e44f4091a4d4adbc

Edited January 25, 2023 by ozimoron

[Kwasaki]

8 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

The Ukrainians are fighting to liberate their country from Russian military aggression. How is that offensive? 

IMO Germany was thinking about Russia seeing Germany giving tanks to Ukraine as Germany esculating the war against Russia a fair call.

[Chomper Higgot]

14 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

IMO Germany was thinking about Russia seeing Germany giving tanks to Ukraine as Germany esculating the war against Russia a fair call.

The illegal war Russia started.

[heybruce]

22 hours ago, Mickeymaus said:

Then we could have a world war. I am not sure if you are aware of the consequences. Today's world is much more interconnected than during the last world wars. The economies of many countries would collapse because they need resources of other countries. This creates total chaos. And China might not watch this development without participating. Many people will lose everything. And you may no longer have internet and you may no longer be able to travel to Thailand.... Do you really want this? 

 

22 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The longer I read this thread the more I'm convinced that some on it get their ideas of war from movies. War is always messy and rarely goes the way it is intended. A large part of winning is down to blind luck, rather than intent.

I could use examples from previous wars but that would be off topic.

We don't want World War III and we don't want a world that capitulates to aggressive tyrants. 

 

Between the two extremes is the policy of limiting aggression by making it extremely painful for the aggressor.  That's what we're doing now.

Edited January 25, 2023 by heybruce

[heybruce]

21 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

The West is digging a deeper whole in Ukraine...this decision is especially despicable on Germany's part considering its history in the last century. 

Putin is the one digging.

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, bannork said:

You'll survive on a Thai beach you love, just hone your fishing skills for food.

You say if it came to it, but what does that mean? No one is threatening to invade Russia.

Do you not understand that nuclear winter is game over for humans?

It doesn't require anyone to actually invade Russia to start it.

If by any chance Thailand did survive, I'd be competing with several million refugees for those fish, and I doubt I'd be winning.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, starsconty said:

I went to the US Army Armor school many years ago.  It can take up to month or more to train people to operate, maintain and ultimately use the weapons in any tank.  I realize some Ukrainians have experience in tanks but those were made in Russia.  Best case scenario is at least 60 days before any western tanks are deployed in combat.  Any earlier would be unwise. 

Been a few experts on Al Jazeera discussing just that. The estimates varied from 3 weeks to 4 months.

 

What most people don't understand is the amount of maintenance a tank requires, and that depends on spares and trained people to do the maintenance.

Also, things like the amount of fuel tanks use which is a LOT. Tanks without a big maintenance/ supply train are just stationary artillery, and even that requires weapon maintenance, and ammunition resupply.

 

From some of the comments I've seen, some posters have no idea of the logistics involved to put a tank on the front line.

[heybruce]

19 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

I went to the US Army Armor school many years ago.  It can take up to month or more to train people to operate, maintain and ultimately use the weapons in any tank.  I realize some Ukrainians have experience in tanks but those were made in Russia.  Best case scenario is at least 60 days before any western tanks are deployed in combat.  Any earlier would be unwise.  

 

The M1A-1 is even worse because it is so complex that it could take months to train the Ukrainians to operate it.  The Abrams has a turbine engine and the maintenance on that is a literal "nightmare".  This would require shipments of jet fuel for the Abrams as well.  It is almost getting to the point that NATO will have to sent it's own forces into this war? 

"Best case scenario is at least 60 days before any western tanks are deployed in combat."

 

Good.  That means they have time before the ground thaws and dries out.

 

"The M1A-1 is even worse because it is so complex that it could take months to train the Ukrainians to operate it. "

 

Agree.  The contribution of the Abrams tanks is more symbolic.  Ukraine needs the German Leopard tanks, lots of them.

[heybruce]

13 hours ago, Saanim said:

That's the expression "unprovoked" what was mentioned many times recently by Noah Chomsky (who else has the guts to call a spade a spade?) that he has googled and received thousands of results at the Ukraine conflict.  Not so at other wars (and there were just not few), never was spoken about a provocation.

 

Asking why it's so?

Because you want to deflect.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, Yme said:

So that only leaves the roughly six months it takes to train a person for one position in a crew of four: plus mechanics. Otherwise they're just very expensive targets. 

 

The armchair warriors won't be happy having their dreams dashed!

They seem to think as soon as the tanks arrives they can be driven off to win the war. Never mind resupply, recovery, repair, as that can be ignored.

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, AndyFoxy said:

Memories of Barbarossa

Indeed, and the 40 million Soviet citizens that died in it.

 

( From the book Barbarossa by Stewart Binns )

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, bangon04 said:

If the "western" countries such as Poland and Bulgaria and Slovakia and Slovenia sent 1000 T72s immediately it would make a difference because the Ukrainians are already well-trained to make use of them. The Leopards and Challengers could replace them slowly......

To do so would entail threatening their own defence capabilities. I doubt they would do that. After all, some posters on here have been saying Russia won't stop at Ukraine if they win. Do you expect them to ignore that possibility?

 

One of the reasons they want Leopards are because of the superior protection. If they are using Soviet tanks they would be losing a lot of tank crews, as the Ukrainians have proven how poor their armour is to modern anti tank weapons ( unless your claim is that the Russians don't have modern anti tank weapons ).

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Saanim said:

It would  be interesting to read the possible scenarios of this war ending? By some war experts, whatever they think could happen.  Any link?

Of course any outcome is possible, and I'm certainly no more psychic than any one else, but I see only 3 possibilities

1/ Russia wins in Ukraine

2/ Russia loses and becomes chaos

3/ nuclear war ensues.

 

 

[StayinThailand2much]

23 hours ago, Mickeymaus said:

Very interesting strategy. If the last Ukrainian soldier is dead who will fight then? The West? 

I read that Ukraine is already asking for fighter jets. What's next, ballistic missiles? - Maybe just a question of time till the West/NATO gets directly involved.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, BE88 said:

Evidently you don't know the nuclear capability of Russia and its atomic submarines, and of many hidden atomic bases, you are convinced that all Russian military will surrender when Moscow is destroyed.

It's an option I wouldn't want to take.

 

Seems some posters enthusiasm for war is only surpassed by their lack of knowledge of what war entails.

Nations have missile submarines to take revenge in the case where an enemy does attack the mainland and destroys the on land missiles.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

I read that Ukraine is already asking for fighter jets. What's next, ballistic missiles? - Maybe just a question of time till the West/NATO gets directly involved.

I wouldn't be too worried about the jets. By the time Ukrainian pilots are able to use them the war will likely be over. If it's not, jets are the least of our worries, IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

What happens when soldiers who are not properly trained are sent into battle with unfamiliar equipment and weapons?   The only way to avoid disaster is to have embedded advisors.  I know this sounds like Vietnam but western Tanks and equipment are technically more complex than those made in Russia.  NATO should at least consider civilian technical advisors along with the tanks and other equipment.  

 

Simple question is this:  How long does it take to train a soldier to become a competent tank mechanic?  For the US Army at a minimum a 6 month technical school and almost a year of On The Job Training and Mentoring. 

If the Russians captured any Americans "aiding" the Ukrainians in the war zone IMO they have every right to assume the US is actually involved on the ground.

By only sending weapons the west can maintain that they are not combatants.

[Venom]

23 hours ago, kwonitoy said:

And what do the Germans have to be worried about?

The same as the rest of us, nuclear Armageddon and the end of humanity. But you're a tough cookie so you and your family will be okay. Don't worry. 

[thaibeachlovers]

22 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

When?

A few days ago, I read an article about how long this will/would take.

Germany won't send the tanks which are currently used in their army. They will, if at all, send tanks from storage or ask the manufacturer to send tanks. This will take months - best case. 

Indeed. If anyone is thinking Germany will remove it's tanks from it's own defense IMO they are dreaming.

[Jingthing]

Overreacting to Putin's nuclear bluffing threats is playing right into his hand and makes people useful idiots for Putin. Don't do it. 

Sure the possibility has increased because of this war, but neither side wants it, because MAD is still in effect, so it's more of a matter of increased risk because of mistakes and miscommunication.