Buy insurance: British tourist issues warning after moped crash

[richard_smith237]

40 minutes ago, sungod said:

And here you go trying to convince yourself again......

And yes... I am convinced of my point about the statistics: 

 

76% of road fatalities are motorcyclist - but that 76% is not representative of the risk to me because of measures I take to cut out the major issues... (speeding, drunk riding, night time riding, helmet etc)... 

 

It would be a guess, but I would guess perhaps less than 20% of road fatalities were riders, wearing a helmet riding carefully, day time, sober, not speeding etc etc...   and that is more representative of the risks ‘trained, experienced and careful' foreign riders face....  

 

 

Stats on that 20%...

 

There are 21,730,000 motorcycles in Thailand. 

IF 20% road fatalities are responsible motorcyclist.

5000 motorcyclist deaths per year. 

= 23 motorcyclist deaths per 100,000 bikes. 

 

There are 1,250,000 motorcycles in the UK 

285 motorcyclist deaths per year. 

= 22.8 motorcyclist deaths per 100,000 bikes. 

 

 

When removing the drunk, speeding, helmet-less, night time, untrained riders the risks are not exactly dissimilar....   The numbers are just so high here because there are so many more motorcyclists, covering so many more miles and taking so many more risks while doing so...

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by richard_smith237

[spidermike007]

9 hours ago, proton said:

Social media has a lot to answer for, tik tok nonsense of kids sliding down waterfalls, tearing about on bikes minus helmets (left passport as deposit) thinking tuk tuks are cool and dancing about drugged to the eyeballs at the ghastly full moon party. They seem to think you have to go straight to KSR and start scoffing street food, filming the lot of course.

Social media is tearing apart society and contemporary culture at the seams. One more generation of this, and all bets are off. 

[spidermike007]

10 hours ago, Baz Erckens said:

I cannot agree more. I have lived and rode my bike in Pats and Bangkok, where even some Thais don't dare to ride the bike. But I have to say that down in Rawaii in Phuket is just the most dangerous area to ride a bike. Tourists with their rented big bikes and scooters without any or extremely insufficient experience race their bikes like there is no tomorrow. Mostly very aggressive, no helmet, shirtless, way to fast etc.

I always wondered why they drive more aggressively in a tropical island. One would think most would be more laid back.

 

I don't know where I am going, but I know I have to get there quickly! 

[kwilco]

19 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Why do we always have these experts who somehow think they know it all?

Did she have a motorcycle license? It was not mentioned.

Did she wear any helmet? It was not mentioned.

Did she drive like an idiot or was there maybe a reason that she got off the street? It was not mentioned.

 

Why don't we stick to the facts and don't speculate about what we don't know?

I guess to someone who comes up with a comment like that, everyone else must look like an "expert"!

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Other road users are a danger in other countries too, of course, more so in Thailand,

basic misunderstanding of road safety there - it is a failure of the road environment - drivers are universally the same - unless you believe in a racist interpretation.

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

And yes... I am convinced of my point about the statistics: 

 

76% of road fatalities are motorcyclist - but that 76% is not representative of the risk to me because of measures I take to cut out the major issues... (speeding, drunk riding, night time riding, helmet etc)... 

 

It would be a guess, but I would guess perhaps less than 20% of road fatalities were riders, wearing a helmet riding carefully, day time, sober, not speeding etc etc...   and that is more representative of the risks ‘trained, experienced and careful' foreign riders face....  

 

 

Stats on that 20%...

 

There are 21,730,000 motorcycles in Thailand. 

IF 20% road fatalities are responsible motorcyclist.

5000 motorcyclist deaths per year. 

= 23 motorcyclist deaths per 100,000 bikes. 

 

There are 1,250,000 motorcycles in the UK 

285 motorcyclist deaths per year. 

= 22.8 motorcyclist deaths per 100,000 bikes. 

 

 

When removing the drunk, speeding, helmet-less, night time, untrained riders the risks are not exactly dissimilar....   The numbers are just so high here because there are so many more motorcyclists, covering so many more miles and taking so many more risks while doing so...

 

 

 

Shows how you can misinterpret statistics or just not get it.

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Shows how you can misinterpret statistics or just not get it.

Please explain how the statistic have been misinterpreted.... if you can....

 

Either you are correct and my numbers are well off... or it is you who in fact ‘just does not get it’.. 

 

Start with... How many motorcyclists deaths involve those not wearing helmets, then consider how many of them may have been drunk, then how many of them were speeding / racing, how many of them were inexperienced, how many of them were riding carelessly (not defensive riding).... 

 

Punch some numbers and see what you come up with instead dumb one liners which provide nothing. 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Other road users are a danger in other countries too, of course, more so in Thailand,

basic misunderstanding of road safety there - it is a failure of the road environment - drivers are universally the same - unless you believe in a racist interpretation.

hmm.. how about a bit of gaslighting combined with a dash of virtue signalling ????

 

There’s nothing racist at all in suggesting that Thailands roads may be more dangerous because there is less driver education etc... thats a simple observation completely devoid of any racial connotation. 

 

BUT... in your haste to argue you actually missed the point I was making to suggest that for ‘careful’ road users the danger is not as significantly high as the statistic initially suggest. 

 

 

[Ralf001]

8 hours ago, Keep Right said:

Only a fool rides a motorbike in Thailand regardless if you have insurance, helmet, boots, leather. It just does not matter, the rule of probability will catch up to you and you will either die or get seriously hurt.

Speaking of fools, welcome to the thread.

Your post almost made me chuckle !!

Edited February 8, 2023 by Ralf001

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Please explain how the statistic have been misinterpreted.... if you can....

 

Either you are correct and my numbers are well off... or it is you who in fact ‘just does not get it’.. 

 

Start with... How many motorcyclists deaths involve those not wearing helmets, then consider how many of them may have been drunk, then how many of them were speeding / racing, how many of them were inexperienced, how many of them were riding carelessly (not defensive riding).... 

 

Punch some numbers and see what you come up with instead dumb one liners which provide nothing. 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

hmm.. how about a bit of gaslighting combined with a dash of virtue signalling ????

 

There’s nothing racist at all in suggesting that Thailands roads may be more dangerous because there is less driver education etc... thats a simple observation completely devoid of any racial connotation. 

 

BUT... in your haste to argue you actually missed the point I was making to suggest that for ‘careful’ road users the danger is not as significantly high as the statistic initially suggest. 

 

 

Your premises a fallacious from the start, so just about everything you say is nonsense.

For a start you have confused ŕoad deaths with collisions then you just make false assumptions about drivers dividing them racially.

You seem to have no idea about the causes of accidents 

You make no attempt to put your stats into context  and then just come to a load of clichéed conclusions that you made before you bothered to gather the stats.. the result being you haven't  looked at them objectively or even rationslly

A sign of a bad motorist is someone who blames everyone else but themselves and misuses stats to support their own prejudices.

Edited February 8, 2023 by kwilco

[Captain Monday]

Did her insurance pay the hospital directly or did she have to pay upfront herself anyway?

 

I never purchased "travel" insurance until ASQ and Sandbox period Thailand required it for entry.

 

I consider it to be redundant and unnecessary as  I'm already insured. 

[Orinoco]

14 hours ago, Keep Right said:

Only a fool rides a motorbike in Thailand regardless if you have insurance, helmet, boots, leather. It just does not matter, the rule of probability will catch up to you and you will either die or get seriously hurt.

23 years. flip flops, Chang wife beater on,  open face lid.

sunglasses. and a smile  as I pass the cars in traffic.

No leathers, no boots, no gloves.

I ride the super powerful, Honda wave, with a shopping basket on the front. also on ultra high alert at all times.

Jobs a good'un.

 

Ps Be careful boys and girls out there.  your not in Kansas anymore.

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Orinoco

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Captain Monday said:

Did her insurance pay the hospital directly or did she have to pay upfront herself anyway?

 

I never purchased "travel" insurance until ASQ and Sandbox period Thailand required it for entry.

 

I consider it to be redundant and unnecessary as  I'm already insured. 

How can you be insured if you have never bought it?

[Captain Monday]

10 minutes ago, kwilco said:

How can you be insured if you have never bought it?

I already pay monthly/get insurance thru my US employer. The coverage is global and there are no limits, only deductibles and copays.  If I need service outside network I pay myself and apply for reimbursement later.

 

The company  are UNFORTUNATELY not able to provide a signed document that shows the *period of insurance or *coverage limits that will satisfy Embassy/consulate Thai visa requirements or Thai immigration, coming in. 

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

 

Your premises a fallacious from the start, so just about everything you say is nonsense.

For a start you have confused ŕoad deaths with collisions then you just make false assumptions about drivers dividing them racially.

You seem to have no idea about the causes of accidents 

You make no attempt to put your stats into context  and then just come to a load of clichéed conclusions that you made before you bothered to gather the stats.. the result being you haven't  looked at them objectively or even rationslly

A sign of a bad motorist is someone who blames everyone else but themselves and misuses stats to support their own prejudices.

Your response only flames my efforts to rationalise the statistic in such a way that they are more representative for a trained, experienced & careful rider.

 
Do you think I face the same risk on a motorcycle as a drunk 20 year old without a helmet?

The stats were placed into that very context, I just don’t think you like the results so took to flaming. 
 

You have not offered any input of your own… how about using some data for that, or are the facts also racist ?

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

How can you be insured if you have never bought it?

I used to have health insurance, provided by employer, and never really needed, along with travel insurance, provided by CC companies if using for rental/bookings.  Especially Am Ex. ????

 

Never used but was surprised about the amounts covered.  Silly amounts you'd need to be in 1 serious accident with extended care to reach the limits. 

 

All the traveling I did, I actually never new travel ins was a thing, ignorance prevailed, not that I would ever pay for it anyway.  Being Anti-ins ????

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by KhunLA

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Your response only flames my efforts to rationalise the statistic in such a way that they are more representative for a trained, experienced & careful rider.

 
Do you think I face the same risk on a motorcycle as a drunk 20 year old without a helmet?

The stats were placed into that very context, I just don’t think you like the results so took to flaming. 
 

You have not offered any input of your own… how about using some data for that, or are the facts also racist ?

 

 

 

Your classifications of riders as "careful" etc are purely subjective. So long as you talk about drivers and riders like that you are failing even yo begin to understand road safety. 

You still don't seem the grasp the paucity of the stats you refer to

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Do you think I face the same risk on a motorcycle as a drunk 20 year old without a helmet?

The stats were placed into that very context, I just don’t think you like the results so took to flaming.

20 something year old tourist ladies are completely capable of driving themselves off the road without drink, drugs or any other drivers being involved. Picked one off the road myself a few years back, had got off the plane (CM) in the morning, rented a m/c in the afternoon and attempted to drive up to Wat Doi Suthep. Fell of at the first steep bend, sliding across the oncoming lane and into the drainage ditch. Lucky for her there were no oncoming cars or glass windows to drive into, but she wasn't wearing much and lost a lot of skin all over. I drove her back to her hotel, and my pillion passenger drove her m/c back. 

 

Call me a sexist if you want, but I've never seen a guy do that!

[Captain Monday]

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

20 something year old tourist ladies are completely capable of driving themselves off the road without drink, drugs or any other drivers being involved. Picked one off the road myself a few years back, had got off the plane (CM) in the morning, rented a m/c in the afternoon and attempted to drive up to Wat Doi Suthep. Fell of at the first steep bend, sliding across the oncoming lane and into the drainage ditch. Lucky for her there were no oncoming cars or glass windows to drive into, but she wasn't wearing much and lost a lot of skin all over. I drove her back to her hotel, and my pillion passenger drove her m/c back. 

 

Call me a sexist if you want, but I've never seen a guy do that!

Years ago on Samui two gals came down a hill andthen the sharp  turn appeared to panic and accelerate flying into one of those deep drainage culverts. They were OK. Bike did not look so great.

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Your classifications of riders as "careful" etc are purely subjective. So long as you talk about drivers and riders like that you are failing even yo begin to understand road safety. 

You still don't seem the grasp the paucity of the stats you refer to

 

I agree that there is far more to road accidents than the simplified observations commonly made. 

But, I disagree that the simplified observations are wrong, they simply do not cover the whole picture, road design, weather, even general safety culture all play a significant role. 

 

For example.... there are far less ‘careful riders’ involved in accidents (and road deaths) than ‘careless’ riders....    If you are going to outright disregard that then you face significant challenges in overcoming a lack of basic common sense and it is you who fails to understand road safety. 

 

The stats I presented are flawed, there are so many variables that its impossible to capture specific risk in such examples. However, the stats are presented to highlight how the 76% motorcyclist road fatalities in Thailand are not representative of the risk we all (who ride) face when riding a motorcycle in Thailand. 

We remove ourselves from the most dangerous situations through our actions (not drinking, defensive riding, experience, training, not riding at night or in the wet etc). 

 

There are many accidents which happen in situations many of us (riders) would not place ourselves in - that lowers our risk profile such that it may not be too dissimilar to the risk profile we face when riding overseas in our home countries.

 

For some strange reason you thought that was racist as well which highlights you are not concentrating on the point, but in too much of a hurry to flame and argue. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

20 something year old tourist ladies are completely capable of driving themselves off the road without drink, drugs or any other drivers being involved. Picked one off the road myself a few years back, had got off the plane (CM) in the morning, rented a m/c in the afternoon and attempted to drive up to Wat Doi Suthep. Fell of at the first steep bend, sliding across the oncoming lane and into the drainage ditch. Lucky for her there were no oncoming cars or glass windows to drive into, but she wasn't wearing much and lost a lot of skin all over. I drove her back to her hotel, and my pillion passenger drove her m/c back. 

In experienced tourists, unlicensed, untrained, unfamiliar with the traffic here, riding in flip-flops.... 

Drunks, red-light jumpers, speeders, no helmets, those who take chances etc etc.....  All add to the aggregate statistics for accidents and road deaths...      

 

Those who ride with the above traits contribute proportionately more to the accident & fatality stats than those who ride very carefully....   

 

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Call me a sexist if you want, but I've never seen a guy do that!

Possibly, that perhaps alludes to mechanical knowledge, how motorcycles work etc.. it could also be argued that young men would drink and ride more, take more risks etc... 

 

 

My point though all of this is that a 40 year old guy whose been living here for 15years, doesn’t drink and ride, doesn’t ride at night, wears a helmet, doest speed, rides defensively, shows great awareness etc is at far less risk of an accident than the aggregate 76% motorcyclist road fatalities suggest.

 

That does not mean there is no risk... but when 'risk behaviour’ and cause is considered those who are more careful may not face and greater risk than riding a motorcyclist in their home country. 

 

Kwilco doesn’t like this because he wants to blame things such as road layout etc... which of course are also contributory factors, but he wants to ignore other significant factors because he thinks discussing ’local factors’ such as lack of rider / driver education, lack of safety awareness, more drunk riding etc is somehow racist. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by richard_smith237

[PETERTHEEATER]

On 2/7/2023 at 11:10 PM, AaronC76 said:

Those stitches are pretty tidy

Yes. A good job considering her face was 'sliced open frpm side to side'

The report also says the wound in her ankle was 5 cm deep so she has really fat ankles.

[Dazkkk]

On 2/7/2023 at 9:55 PM, ukrules said:

I'm pretty sure she wasn't wearing a full helmet here if the huge cut on the face probably wouldn't have happened.

 

No motorcycle license likely no insurance, unless she has a policy like mine - which she obviously doesn't.

Well her insurance company paid the bill so your assertion she had no insurance is just stupid speculation on your part.

Also, she must have had a license to drive a motorcycle or the insurance company wouldn’t have paid the bills. No insurance company would pay if she was riding one illegally. No license, no payment, it’s that simple. 
 

As to how the accident happened, or if she was wearing a helmet, is yet another dumb statement, because the article doesn’t say she wasn’t wearing one and that she had lost control of the motorcycle. She didn’t say that, it was written by some child reporter from some rag. 
The cause of the accident is yet to be ascertained. “Losing control” could have been caused by many things, none of which could be her fault. ????

Edited February 9, 2023 by Dazkkk

[ukrules]

25 minutes ago, Dazkkk said:

No license, no payment, it’s that simple.

Wrong, I think. Accident cover likely has little to do with licensing but that would be down to the policy.

 

Remember we're not talking about vehicle insurance here - that would require a valid license.

Edited February 9, 2023 by ukrules

[LikeItHot]

To be fair a house could dart across the road in front of any of us.  I think it's good advice from An Idiot A(nd a)broad.

Edited February 9, 2023 by LikeItHot

[jacko45k]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:27 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

It did pay up because, unsurprisingly, legitimate, non-voided claims are always paid by insurers.

Nonsense.... insurance companies accept premiums and do a very poor job of telling you in advance what is not covered, if they bother at all. Make a claim, then you find out how good or bad your policy is. they will retroactively pursue your medical records (withholding any payment) looking for a weasel opportunity. Policies can be modified in mid term. Take your agenda elsewhere. 

[jacko45k]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:35 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

Yes, there's only hundreds of thousands of them with m/c licences..

And millions without.... dull statement. 

[jerrymahoney]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Nonsense.... insurance companies accept premiums and do a very poor job of telling you in advance what is not covered, if they bother at all. Make a claim, then you find out how good or bad your policy is. they will retroactively pursue your medical records (withholding any payment) looking for a weasel opportunity. Policies can be modified in mid term. Take your agenda elsewhere. 

Agenda? My favorite insurance post was the guy who had a claim denied because, when the insurer reviewed his medical records and found something that was not included in the application, he said OH I forgot about that.

Edited February 10, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Agenda? My favorite insurance post was the guy who had a claim denied because, when the insurer reviewed his medical records and found something that was not included in the application, he said OH I forgot about that.

It is not surprising.... I have made hospital visits in my 18 years here I do not recall, nor expected to produce an exception in any way.... Perhaps the companies could do these checks before accepting the premium, rather when a customer is incapacitated in a hospital bed. 

[jerrymahoney]

10 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

It is not surprising.... I have made hospital visits in my 18 years here I do not recall, nor expected to produce an exception in any way.... Perhaps the companies could do these checks before accepting the premium, rather when a customer is incapacitated in a hospital bed. 

Maybe so -- but the application whether in Thailand or ex-Thailand is a binding legal document where the applicant certifies that the medical data provided is accurate and complete.

Edited February 10, 2023 by jerrymahoney