British woman, 20, left for dead in hit and run motorbike crash faces being thrown out of Thai hospital despite horrifying injuries after being hit with £40,000 medical bill

[Chas2662]

 

It's about time that travel sites about Thailand add warnings concerning the rental of mopeds, scooters etc in Thailand as they do about the gem scams and renting jetski's. If you want to hire a scooter you must be in possession of a Thai driving licence or international driving permit, A british licence is not valid, therefore your breaking the law and no insurance company will pay if you have an accident.

[Ralf001]

19 minutes ago, Chas2662 said:

 

It's about time that travel sites about Thailand add warnings concerning the rental of mopeds, scooters etc in Thailand as they do about the gem scams and renting jetski's. If you want to hire a scooter you must be in possession of a Thai driving licence or international driving permit, A british licence is not valid, therefore your breaking the law and no insurance company will pay if you have an accident.

People actually visit and read those websites ?

 

The Licence thing, you are wrong, one can rent a bike here with a valid UK licence. best to also have an IDP as well.

 

Best Advice to give to a tourist, read the "fine print" of your insurance policy.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/18/2023 at 3:50 PM, superal said:

You have missed the point that I made concerning the humanity issues , i.e. a badly injured person taken to a hospital which then refuses to administer possible life saving or life changing  medical aid , unless there is proof of adequate funds . Secondly the £40,000 bill is way over the top to treat a broken arm and lacerations . 

Its all about making money out of  foreigners .

Actually it's always about making money. Is there any difference between a hospital refusing treatment without payment and a company making weapons to kill people?

Western people have the notion that all hospitals are about the public good, but they are not. Private hospitals are a business, not a charity.

Want lower cost, go to a government hospital, but in Thailand, even those want to be paid by foreigners as treatment costs and someone has to pay. I doubt the hospital workers will turn up if they don't get paid.

 

Till tourist insurance is mandatory to be allowed into LOS, I guess there will always be those that think they don't need to be covered and then expect other people to pay for them when it goes wrong.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Chas2662 said:

 

It's about time that travel sites about Thailand add warnings concerning the rental of mopeds, scooters etc in Thailand as they do about the gem scams and renting jetski's. If you want to hire a scooter you must be in possession of a Thai driving licence or international driving permit, A british licence is not valid, therefore your breaking the law and no insurance company will pay if you have an accident.

LOL. You can't get an IDP without a valid licence, so just bring the actual licence as well. Never hurts to have as much documentation as possible in the event of a problem.

 

The problems are not so much about the licence, but about not being insured and / or not knowing how to ride on two wheels in Thailand.

[jerrymahoney]

5 hours ago, kwilco said:

On 2/22/2023 at 5:21 AM, jerrymahoney said:

At least per Ms. Spry's father, she is now at a "state hospital" on Koh Samui.

the hospital that misdiagnosed my cancer!

That's a funny name for a hospital.

[jacko45k]

6 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

I can confirm that, it happened to me, thankfully the bill was just 1,500 baht. If you have insurance then always make sure you are taken to a private hospital.

You may even have a similar issue with local insurance policies at private hospitals... I tried presenting my insurance card to the main one in Pattaya and the insurance company rejected cover, requiring me to pay myself and claim later with receipts. Learning this at a time you need treatment is not the best situation to be in. 

[jerrymahoney]

My experience was that CIGNA Global (not CIGNA Thailand) even within the same hospital group would pay direct with hospitals in Bangkok with the RamKhamhaeng Group and Thonburi Group  but not to to hospitals in the same group upcountry.

 

So I don't see why the big surprise that private hospitals might generally not pay direct to government hospitals or that they do not pay direct to ALL private hospitals.

 

Insurers would have a list as to who is in their direct pay category.

Edited February 22, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

You may even have a similar issue with local insurance policies at private hospitals... I tried presenting my insurance card to the main one in Pattaya and the insurance company rejected cover, requiring me to pay myself and claim later with receipts. Learning this at a time you need treatment is not the best situation to be in. 

Really that's something you should check prior to getting insurance, including travel insurance

[jerrymahoney]

From: 

AXA Travel Sawasdee Thailand: Inbound Travel Insurance for Thailand visitors

 

Claim > Does AXA offer cashless facilities at hospitals? Do I have to pay upfront at the hospital?

For outpatient (OPD): No, AXA doesn’t offer cashless for OPD treatment. You must make payment first and reimburse with AXA later.

 

For Inpatient (IPD): Yes, we do offer cashless if you’re admitted as an inpatient in AXA hospital network.

 

You may be required to make payment to hospitals when we do not receive in time all information or documentation required to conclude the claim assessment. You can submit claim form including all required documentation for us to consider reimbursement.

 

https://www.axa.co.th/faq-sawasdee-thailand-inbound#collapse21

 

This is a list of AXA travel insurance inbound to Thailand hospital direct pay network

 

 

https://thailandgi.cdn.axa-contento-118412.eu/thailandgi/0cced181-c61e-4296-a092-fdbfc8388977_Hospital-Table-EN.pdf

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[The Fugitive]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

You may be required to make payment to hospitals when we do not receive in time all information or documentation required to conclude the claim assessment. You can submit claim form including all required documentation for us to consider reimbursement.

Thanks for this. I can imagine this scenario may occur frequently! Can't blame them when customers are so 'forgetful' when applying for the policy.

[The Fugitive]

8 hours ago, kwilco said:

the hospital that misdiagnosed my cancer!

Very sorry to hear this and about your condition. Doctors everywhere admit that cancer is incredibly difficult to diagnose. Tumours are not always visible on CT & MRI scans.  Blood tests are the most reliable indicator but even they can return normal results until just a few weeks before death.

Edited February 23, 2023 by The Fugitive

[BritManToo]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:52 AM, kwilco said:

There will be plenty of people who point out the lack of insurance, shouldn't have been riding an M/C etc. etc but they miss the elephant in the room - the total lack of ethics in the Thai heath industry..

 

Ironically many of those who blame the girl for her predicament are already victims of the same system - but they as yet are unaware of it.

The Thai government, the Thai private hospitals, and the entire worldwide Insurance industry are to blame.

[BritManToo]

8 hours ago, Chas2662 said:

 

It's about time that travel sites about Thailand add warnings concerning the rental of mopeds, scooters etc in Thailand as they do about the gem scams and renting jetski's. If you want to hire a scooter you must be in possession of a Thai driving licence or international driving permit, A british licence is not valid, therefore your breaking the law and no insurance company will pay if you have an accident.

You're posting rubbish that has already been answered.

IDP and home country motor cycle driving licences are covered by the same 1949 UN treaty + Thai law section 42-2, in which either is valid for tourists in Thailand. Unless you're German, neither a German driving licence or German issued IDP is valid in Thailand as Germany didn't ratify the treaty.

 

German tourists and anyone intending to live in Thailand need a Thai driving licence the moment they enter Thailand. 

 

Section 42-2

 

MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY ACT (Thai Law)

https://driving-in-thailand.com/motor-vehicle-act/

Section 42

Anyone who wishes to drive a motor vehicle on public roads must possess an appropriate driver licence.

The driver must carry the driver licence and a photocopy of the registration book and show them to competent officers upon request.

This does not apply to those who are learning to drive a motor vehicle according to the provision of Section 57.

If the driver is an alien who doesn't have an immigrant visa, he may drive a motor vehicle with a driver licence specified in the Section 42-2.

In such a case, he must carry documents specified by the treaty between the Thai government and the government which issued such driver licence, and show them to competent officers upon request.

Section 42-2
 

In case there is a treaty between the Thai government and a foreign government regarding mutual acceptance of driver licence, an alien who does not have an immigrant visa may drive a motor vehicle with a driver licence issued by such a foreign government, or an automobile association authorised by such a foreign government.

Once you obtain a non-immigrant visa or establish you are a resident (such as enrolling kids in school, buy a car etc,) and are no longer a toursit, you need a Thai drivers licence as your national license and international driving permit is only legally accepted if you are a tourist. Several insurance companies have  fine print stating that the driver should hold a valid Thai driving licence to be fully covered after a certain amount of time in Thailand.

 

And this is the 1949 UN treaty ratified by Thailand in 1962, and the UK in 1957 (and Norway in 1957)

 

https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetailsV.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-1&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg5&clang=_en

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by BritManToo

[Jimjim1]

On 2/19/2023 at 2:25 PM, Ralf001 said:

Your talking about 3rd class insurance which only covers the liability to third parties (property damage and bodily injury) when the driver is at fault.

No if you read my reply correctly you will see that I am referring to fully comprehensive insurance policies and the need to obtain such, which can only be done IF the person is a fully qualified rider,

no licence means no insurance.

Any idiot can lie his or her way into a system but if one has an accident fault or no fault and that person does not have the correct qualifications the insurance companies will deny cover.

[billd766]

https://www.kosamuilife.com/post/government-hospital-and-health-departments-in-samui

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=state+hospitals+in+thailand+on+koh+samui&rlz=1C1CHBF_enTH1026TH1026&sxsrf=AJOqlzXyyR5vkY5sC5YR618Qhfcxu5PF7w%3A1677129139174&ei=s_X2Y_idCpSTseMPlsuhsAU&ved=0ahUKEwi4w9T08Kr9AhWUSWwGHZZlCFYQ4dUDCA8&oq=state+hospitals+in+thailand+on+koh+samui&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQDEoECEEYAFAAWABgAGgAcAB4AIABAIgBAJIBAJgBAA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

 

https://i-brokers.com/koh-samui-hospital/

 

 

[Ralf001]

49 minutes ago, Jimjim1 said:

No if you read my reply correctly you will see that I am referring to fully comprehensive insurance policies and the need to obtain such, which can only be done IF the person is a fully qualified rider,

no licence means no insurance.

Any idiot can lie his or her way into a system but if one has an accident fault or no fault and that person does not have the correct qualifications the insurance companies will deny cover.

Yeah been here for many years and have owned a lot of vehicles.

Not once have I had to produce/show drivers licence to get full comprehensive insurance.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Ralf001

[kwilco]

9 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

That's a funny name for a hospital.

what is?

[kwilco]

6 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

Very sorry to hear this and about your condition. Doctors everywhere admit that cancer is incredibly difficult to diagnose. Tumours are not always visible on CT & MRI scans.  Blood tests are the most reliable indicator but even they can return normal results until just a few weeks before death.

I'm not going into the case here, but i can tell you it was pure unadulterated incompetence - you don't even know what kind of cancer it was yet you are already making assumptions.

As I have a basic medical knowledge ,but better still a good knowledge of how Thai helthcare works in these places having worked there myself, I was able to see the nonsense going on.

I worry about patients who go into Thaihospitals and often treatment falls at the first fence - government or private - they have none primary syatem so diagnosis is just hit or miss. Once they set you off on that trail other options are ignored.

 

With the girl in hospital the difference in attitude and treatment between payers and non-payers is astounding.

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

https://www.kosamuilife.com/post/government-hospital-and-health-departments-in-samui

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=state+hospitals+in+thailand+on+koh+samui&rlz=1C1CHBF_enTH1026TH1026&sxsrf=AJOqlzXyyR5vkY5sC5YR618Qhfcxu5PF7w%3A1677129139174&ei=s_X2Y_idCpSTseMPlsuhsAU&ved=0ahUKEwi4w9T08Kr9AhWUSWwGHZZlCFYQ4dUDCA8&oq=state+hospitals+in+thailand+on+koh+samui&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQDEoECEEYAFAAWABgAGgAcAB4AIABAIgBAJIBAJgBAA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

 

https://i-brokers.com/koh-samui-hospital/

 

 

Why did you post these addresses?

[jerrymahoney]

12 minutes ago, kwilco said:

what is?

The hospital-that -misdiagnosed-your-cancer. There is only one public hospital on Koh Samui but I do not know where you went

[kwilco]

On 2/17/2023 at 11:27 AM, Ralf001 said:

Rental companies have had access to insurance for their rented vehicles/bikes for the past 5 years that I know of because I pay it  for my wife who has a small rental fleet.

I think people are talking about different insurance types

 

There is the vehicle insurance given by the rental company - which at it's basest, is just the equivalent (or less) of the UK "3rd party"

The other insurance is medical care provided in case of injury to th rider (or others) - for a tourist, this is a matter for their holiday insurance.

I found out last week that the company I use only covers you for vehicles up to 125 cc.

For this you must have A FULL UK MOTORCYCLE LICENCE.

This needs now to be accompanied by an IDP with the category for motorcycles stamped on it.

 

Non full licence holders don't qualify.

the other problem is that many of the step-throughs for rent these days are 135 to 150 cc which a tourist may not be aware of.

If you want to rent a larger bike, you will have to check with your insurance provider and probably take out a special cover clause.

 

THe Thai authorities are clamping down on the motorcycle rental companies and in theory they can be prosecuted for renting bikes to unqualified riders.

for instance this February

 

"Legal Action Being Taken Against Motorbike Rental Operators in Patong" - https://thephuketexpress.com/2023/02/10/legal-action-being-taken-against-motorbike-rental-operators-in-patong/

 

Setting a a motorcycle rental business used to be an easy wa to raise a little cash . -the overheads were low and there is a common contract you can download or get from a law shop.

However Thailand is getting wary of the increasing number of patients who can't pay for their treatment for M/C injuries and are trying to do something about it.

Phuket is the most "European-ised" of all the provinces, but it is likely that others will soon follow - Samui in particular.

 

[kwilco]

17 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

The hospital-that -misdiagnosed-your-cancer. There is only one public hospital on Koh Samui but I do not know where you went

Read the post I replied to it was the government hospital. 

[Ralf001]

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I think people are talking about different insurance types

 

There is the vehicle insurance given by the rental company - which at it's basest, is just the equivalent (or less) of the UK "3rd party"

The other insurance is medical care provided in case of injury to th rider (or others) - for a tourist, this is a matter for their holiday insurance.

I found out last week that the company I use only covers you for vehicles up to 125 cc.

For this you must have A FULL UK MOTORCYCLE LICENCE.

This needs now to be accompanied by an IDP with the category for motorcycles stamped on it.

 

Non full licence holders don't qualify.

the other problem is that many of the step-throughs for rent these days are 135 to 150 cc which a tourist may not be aware of.

If you want to rent a larger bike, you will have to check with your insurance provider and probably take out a special cover clause.

 

THe Thai authorities are clamping down on the motorcycle rental companies and in theory they can be prosecuted for renting bikes to unqualified riders.

for instance this February

 

"Legal Action Being Taken Against Motorbike Rental Operators in Patong" - https://thephuketexpress.com/2023/02/10/legal-action-being-taken-against-motorbike-rental-operators-in-patong/

 

Setting a a motorcycle rental business used to be an easy wa to raise a little cash . -the overheads were low and there is a common contract you can download or get from a law shop.

However Thailand is getting wary of the increasing number of patients who can't pay for their treatment for M/C injuries and are trying to do something about it.

Phuket is the most "European-ised" of all the provinces, but it is likely that others will soon follow - Samui in particular.

 

Yeah, given neither myself/my wife nor her rental business is located in the UK what ever vehicle insurance they have there is not relevant............. not sure why it is even being mentioned.

[kwilco]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. You can't get an IDP without a valid licence, so just bring the actual licence as well. Never hurts to have as much documentation as possible in the event of a problem.

 

The problems are not so much about the licence, but about not being insured and / or not knowing how to ride on two wheels in Thailand.

You must have the original licence - the IDP is essentially just a translation of that. It is only valid so long as you licence is valid - the police will check the dates correspond and vehicles permitted.

Before 2020 you could argue that an IDP wasn't necessary with a UK licence because it has a photo, language and all the necessary categories required for the police to identify. However, since then Thailand has ratified the Vienna convention (1968) which means you need an IDP that relates to the Vienna treaty -  you issuer should ask you which treaty. 

THe IDP lasts for up to 3 years or as long as your licence - whichever comes sooner which is why you need to have both documents.

 

[kwilco]

6 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

Yeah, given neither myself/my wife nor her rental business is located in the UK what ever vehicle insurance they have there is not relevant............. not sure why it is even being mentioned.

I'm referring to the cover in Thailand,

If your rental bikes are taxed, this includes the national insurance scheme, which basically gives riders immediate emergeny medical help but practically nothing else.

You then have the problem of damage to your machines and the property of others.

A rental company should in theory have this cover too, but it seems that many rely on the belief that te "rich" foreigner renting the bike can pay for any damage. Sadly this is often not the case.

 

The second issue is medical insurance for the renter - firstly they may not have any. They may have insurance not are not aware it doesn't cover motorcycling under "extreme" activities or as I said earlier they may rent a bike over the specified engine size (what size are your wife's bikes???)

Then if they are not fully licensed, their insurance won't cover them.

It is now the responsibility of te rental company to ensure that anyone they rent to is fully covered under Thai law - e.g. licensed.

Edited February 23, 2023 by kwilco

[jerrymahoney]

48 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Read the post I replied to it was the government hospital. 

Well Ms. Spry's father said that his daughter was at "a state" hospital" so I just presume -- not having been on Koh Samui for 35 years -- that maybe there was more than one.

[Ralf001]

46 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I'm referring to the cover in Thailand,

If your rental bikes are taxed, this includes the national insurance scheme, which basically gives riders immediate emergeny medical help but practically nothing else.

You then have the problem of damage to your machines and the property of others.

A rental company should in theory have this cover too, but it seems that many rely on the belief that te "rich" foreigner renting the bike can pay for any damage. Sadly this is often not the case.

 

The second issue is medical insurance for the renter - firstly they may not have any. They may have insurance not are not aware it doesn't cover motorcycling under "extreme" activities or as I said earlier they may rent a bike over the specified engine size (what size are your wife's bikes???)

Then if they are not fully licensed, their insurance won't cover them.

It is now the responsibility of te rental company to ensure that anyone they rent to is fully covered under Thai law - e.g. licensed.

3rd sentence your previous post mentions UK 3rd party.

Thats where I stopped reading.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Ralf001 said:

3rd sentence your previous post mentions UK 3rd party.

Thats where I stopped reading.

If you actually bothered to read it you would have understood it before making a nonsense reply.

Edited February 23, 2023 by kwilco

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

Well Ms. Spry's father said that his daughter was at "a state" hospital" so I just presume -- not having been on Koh Samui for 35 years -- that maybe there was more than one.

THere's nothing in my post or any other to suggest that - there seems to be a spate of people not reading or understanding posts before they post.

[Cricky]

12 minutes ago, kwilco said:

there seems to be a spate of people not reading or understanding posts before they post.

What's new?

 

Happens all the time.