Passport renewal enquiry

[lungbing]

I am sure HMPO do not inform  Thai immigration when a UK passport is cancelled.

 

OP

 

Use an agent and apply immediately after your next 90 day report.  Take all the stapled-in immigration paperwork out of your passport before sending it to the agent and keep it safe.  Using an agent  will save you flying to BKK to submit your application and then flying home.  Then eventually flying down to BKK to collect your new passport and flying back again.  The agent will also use their credit card to pay the fee, and copy every page as needed for the application.  I applied last month and received my new passport 4 weeks later.  But that was before the HMPO new strike.

The agent keeps your passport so if you need it back for immigration they'll send you it, but you must return it as the agent needs it to collect the new one when it arrives.

[In the jungle]

4 hours ago, JayClay said:

If the passport has been cancelled by HMPO then check in systems and Thai immigration systems will both be aware of this.

 

 

No they will not.

[JayClay]

14 hours ago, In the jungle said:

No they will not.

You think that cancelled passports don't flag up on airport and immigration systems?

 

Sounds like it's a lot easier to travel fraudulently than I thought. They should probably do something about that.

[In the jungle]

53 minutes ago, JayClay said:

You think that cancelled passports don't flag up on airport and immigration systems?

 

Sounds like it's a lot easier to travel fraudulently than I thought. They should probably do something about that.

That is not what I think. 

 

That is what I know based on more than twenty years working for the Home Office in the UK and abroad; mostly for the Immigration and Nationality Department (latterly renamed the Immigration and Nationality Directorate). 

[richard_smith237]

19 hours ago, JayClay said:

If the passport has been cancelled by HMPO then check in systems and Thai immigration systems will both be aware of this.

 

I would suggest getting an emergency travel document if the new passport hasn't arrived by the time they need to fly.

Are you sure of that and stating such as a fact you are 100% certain of through first hand knowledge?

 

Or, are you making an assumption and your statement is in fact a guess ?

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, JayClay said:

You think that cancelled passports don't flag up on airport and immigration systems?

Thats exactly what I think, but I’m not sure. 

 

'In the Jungle’ seems to have first hand exposure to this.

 

 

1 hour ago, JayClay said:

Sounds like it's a lot easier to travel fraudulently than I thought.

Fraudulently ?...   You’re over egging your pudding. 

 

1 hour ago, JayClay said:

They should probably do something about that.

Agreed... such as making renewal faster. Streamlining renewal to be online as it is from within the UK etc.

 

 

[JayClay]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Fraudulently ?...   You’re over egging your pudding. 

You're suggesting that it is possible to board a flight and go through immigration on a cancelled passport.

 

I'd call that fraudulent, yes.

 

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Are you sure of that and stating such as a fact you are 100% certain of through first hand knowledge?

No, I have no first hand experience. I wouldn't be so bat-sit-crazy to attempt to do something as reckless.

 

Please note that I said if the passport gets cancelled when the new application is initially sent. If, if, if. I don't know if that is the case, but if it is then common sense says that these systems have checks to make sure people aren't traveling without a valid passport, otherwise it would make a total mockery of international security. 

 

The passport office say that you must not travel on your old passport. The fact that somebody may or may not have gotten away with it in the past would not be enough to persuade me to give it a go myself.

 

If you would be willing to take the risk then fine. But suggesting other people do, considering the massive risks involved, is pretty irresponsible. Especially as there are other less questionable options such as obtaining an emergency travel document.

 

I wish the person in question luck. Hopefully he will get his son's passport back in time and won't have to worry.

 

If he doesn't, he's seen the arguments for and against traveling without making any other arrangements. I really have nothing else to say on the topic.

 

(edit... I've just seen inthejungles post. It makes a compelling argument but I still wouldn't risk it myself... I don't know how recent his 20 years experience in the home office is, for a start)

[JayClay]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Streamlining renewal to be online as it is from within the UK etc.

You don't get to keep your passport when renewing from the UK so it's a moot point, but I agree the process should be streamlined.

[transam]

11 minutes ago, JayClay said:

You don't get to keep your passport when renewing from the UK so it's a moot point, but I agree the process should be streamlined.

I don't understand this......????

[brewsterbudgen]

Just now, transam said:

I don't understand this......????

When renewing a passport in the UK, you have to send off your old passport.  When renewing a UK passport in Thailand, you keep the old passport for ID purposes, and it's 'cut/cancelled' when you collect the new one.

[richard_smith237]

10 minutes ago, JayClay said:

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Fraudulently ?...   You’re over egging your pudding. 

You're suggesting that it is possible to board a flight and go through immigration on a cancelled passport.

 

I'd call that fraudulent, yes.

Actually, I’m not...   I’m ’suggesting’ getting on a flight to the UK with proof of nationality (i.e. passport) IF the renewal has not arrived in time.

 

The question is whether or not the passport is cancelled. 

Is the Passport cancelled upon submission of the renewal application ? - I’m not so sure it is. 

I suspect the Passport is only cancelled upon received of the renewal (and the old passport has its ‘corner cut off’.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, JayClay said:

 

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Are you sure of that and stating such as a fact you are 100% certain of through first hand knowledge?

No, I have no first hand experience. I wouldn't be so bat-sit-crazy to attempt to do something as reckless.

 

Please note that I said if the passport gets cancelled when the new application is initially sent. If, if, if. I don't know if that is the case, but if it is then common sense says that these systems have checks to make sure people aren't traveling without a valid passport, otherwise it would make a total mockery of international security. 

 

The passport office say that you must not travel on your old passport. The fact that somebody may or may not have gotten away with it in the past would not be enough to persuade me to give it a go myself.

Correct - Gov.UK website does not state that the Passport is cancelled. 

Neither does the Gov.uk website state it is illegal to travel on a passport when an application for renal has been submitted.

 

IMO - Must not is not quite the same as ‘illegal’... 

 

 

10 minutes ago, JayClay said:

If you would be willing to take the risk then fine. But suggesting other people do, considering the massive risks involved, is pretty irresponsible.

Exactly what risk are you imagining ?...

Refused entry of a British National to the UK and turned around back to Thailand ??

 

I haven’t advised anyone else to do anything... you are over egging your response again !!.. 

 

10 minutes ago, JayClay said:

Especially as there are other less questionable options such as obtaining an emergency travel document.

Do the British Government issue ‘Emergency travel documents’ to people holding a Passport while there is an existing application in place ?

The Emergency travel document serves as proof of nationality... the Passport (even IF expired) does exactly the same job.

 

10 minutes ago, JayClay said:

I wish the person in question luck. Hopefully he will get his son's passport back in time and won't have to worry.

Thats me, BTW...

 

IF we’re caught short - I’ll be left with little option but to travel on the existing passport while there is an application in place. 

 

10 minutes ago, JayClay said:

If he doesn't, he's seen the arguments for and against traveling without making any other arrangements. I really have nothing else to say on the topic.

You haven't actually said much other than pushing opinion rather than any factual information. 

 

10 minutes ago, JayClay said:

(edit... I've just seen inthejungles post. It makes a compelling argument but I still wouldn't risk it myself... I don't know how recent his 20 years experience in the home office is, for a start)

Valid point... so what do you think has changed ?

 

Any new laws in place which prevent British National’s from entry to the UK with a Passport while there is an existing application in place ???

 

 

[richard_smith237]

4 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

When renewing a passport in the UK, you have to send off your old passport.  When renewing a UK passport in Thailand, you keep the old passport for ID purposes, and it's 'cut/cancelled' when you collect the new one.

Exactly this... And the Website ‘states’ that we ‘must not’ travel with the existing passport. 

 

BUT.. with 10 week+ renewal times this can prove quite difficult. 

 

Some are arguing the existing passport is cancelled upon submission for renewal - I’m not so sure that this is the case. 

 

 

[Upnotover]

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Some are arguing the existing passport is cancelled upon submission for renewal - I’m not so sure that this is the case. 

I am one of those arguing that it is the case.  In the document I linked earlier is stated the following, clearly the electronic cancellation happens a lot earlier (i.e. on application) than the physical cancellation.

 

"When we authorise a renewal or replacement of an old passport, the passport issuing system automatically updates the old passport record on Main Index (MI). The system will cancel an old passport record, when the:

• old passport number has been correctly captured in the previous passport field on the Application Management System (AMS) which only happens, if: o one passport number is in in the previous passport number section o the passport application is not for an additional passport o the cancel passport box is ticked on AMS

• details can be traced on MI, the customer’s details match and the Document Management Service (DMS) have processed the renewal or replacement application"

[JayClay]

1 hour ago, transam said:

I don't understand this......????

When you renew your passport from within the UK you have to send the old one at the time of application. You are without a passport until the new one arrives.

 

When you renew from Thailand you get to keep the old passport until the new one is ready.

[treetops]

9 hours ago, Upnotover said:

I am one of those arguing that it is the case.  In the document I linked earlier is stated the following, clearly the electronic cancellation happens a lot earlier (i.e. on application) than the physical cancellation.

Your quote includes the information that to be electronically cancelled "the cancel passport box is ticked on AMS".

 

Perhaps the box isn't ticked for applicants in Thailand?

[Mutt Daeng]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:25 AM, transam said:

Last year I renewed my passport using an agent, all done by EMS post, I even used THEIR credit card for a small additional fee...

Same here, last time I renewed.

[Tiber]

20 hours ago, JayClay said:

You're suggesting that it is possible to board a flight and go through immigration on a cancelled passport.

 

I'd call that fraudulent, yes.

 

No, I have no first hand experience. I wouldn't be so bat-sit-crazy to attempt to do something as reckless.

 

Please note that I said if the passport gets cancelled when the new application is initially sent. If, if, if. I don't know if that is the case, but if it is then common sense says that these systems have checks to make sure people aren't traveling without a valid passport, otherwise it would make a total mockery of international security. 

 

The passport office say that you must not travel on your old passport. The fact that somebody may or may not have gotten away with it in the past would not be enough to persuade me to give it a go myself.

 

If you would be willing to take the risk then fine. But suggesting other people do, considering the massive risks involved, is pretty irresponsible. Especially as there are other less questionable options such as obtaining an emergency travel document.

 

I wish the person in question luck. Hopefully he will get his son's passport back in time and won't have to worry.

 

If he doesn't, he's seen the arguments for and against traveling without making any other arrangements. I really have nothing else to say on the topic.

 

(edit... I've just seen inthejungles post. It makes a compelling argument but I still wouldn't risk it myself... I don't know how recent his 20 years experience in the home office is, for a start)

Excellent... Gov. UK.    Renewed Pp few days, royal mail track trace 7 quid, hand delivered thai post took 10 days  cheaper than bkk  same dl same ccs

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, Tiber said:

Excellent... Gov. UK.    Renewed Pp few days, royal mail track trace 7 quid, hand delivered thai post took 10 days  cheaper than bkk  same dl same ccs

Can someone translate this please.... ????

 

 

[Binger]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to contribute to my question some really great information really appreciate it ????????????

[lamyai3]

On 4/15/2023 at 7:54 PM, lungbing said:

Use an agent and apply immediately after your next 90 day report.

Wouldn't 90 day reports continue to be done using copies from the old passport you entered on, until such time you've officially transferred extension stamps to new passport at immigration? 

[lungbing]

Yes, because that passport is the one in immigration's system until you receive the new one and have the stamps moved over.  I suggested renewing after the next 90 day report because that then gives you the next 90 days to renew your passport.

[josephbloggs]

On 4/15/2023 at 1:08 PM, josephbloggs said:

I'm in the same boat. Applied 2.5 weeks ago for my son's renewal and was advised 11 weeks. Not sure if the 11 weeks already accounts for the five weeks of industrial action or not but looking now they still say 11 weeks so hopefully it is accounted for as we want to go to the UK in the summer.

They do say your passport is cancelled upon acceptance of your renewal submission (moot for me as his had expired anyway) and you can't use it to travel. I do, however, know people who have travelled on their UK passport in SE Asia even after applying for a new one but it's a bit risky if you ask me. But as you are going to the UK that's a different story.

Hoping the 11 weeks is accurate but also annoyed at myself for not doing it earlier.

Got a notification today that the passport is ready for collection, so a little over eight weeks.