Ownership nightmare: British buyer’s 15 million baht condo purchase in Koh Samui hits legal roadblock

[Nip]

12 hours ago, bignok said:

More money than sense. Always get a proper lawyer. Double check details.

There lies the problem. Thailand has lawyers, but as I heard a Judge say in court to a man who carried out full diligence : ‘And you trusted a Thai lawyer? That was your second biggest mistake’There isn’t a document in Thailand that can’t have a forged signature on it and a Thai lawyer who will witness it. When you have a system and people operating it only to happy and willing to abuse it especially where a foreigner is involved. 

[Hockeybik]

13 hours ago, MadMuhammad said:

Moral of the story is do your due diligence and don’t be a goose 

 

Moral of the story is find and pay a decent lawyer if you are handing over 15 million baht to anyone for anything in Thailand.

[n00dle]

15 hours ago, Chicksaw said:

Moral of the story: Rent, don't buy. At least not anything bigger than a washing machine.

no. that isnt the moral of the story. the moral of the story is do your dillgence and dont base decsions on trust. 

[DaRoadrunner]

4 hours ago, Paul Henry said:

If you are going to make a capital investment in Thailand you should employ a lawyer to check all documentation etc before you sign. A few thousand baht is a small amount for lawyers fees compared to you investment. This applies to many countries throughout the world.

There have been too many cases of the Thai lawyer taking his client's money and yet never checking the property's papers.

[bignok]

4 minutes ago, DaRoadrunner said:

There have been too many cases of the Thai lawyer taking his client's money and yet never checking the property's papers.

Use a big firm.

[farang9392]

2 hours ago, Banana7 said:

 Never give the final payment to the seller until the chanote is in your (buyer) hands along with blue book. Your name will be in Thai language, so have your lawyer, or an official certified translator, translate your name into Thai well before the final payment so you can personally verify your name is in the chanote.

 

I can't see how this is a practical expectation - just shifting the trust,  what if the shoe is on the other foot? whats the advice for a seller? If I'm seller than I'm reluctant to hand over the chanote and blue book until I've got the cash or banks draft in my hand firmly, old Somchai ain't nipping to the car to get the draft or doing something shifty with the docs.  I'm reminded of those that talk about COD and inspecting the product thoroughly before handing over the cash, as if the Shopee guy is going to allow you to rip open the outer box, break open the packaging and plug in your new Samsung S30 phone and boot it up to ensure its not some fake brick.. i wonder if they just spout this without having actually tried it.. I'm not saying it's not a good idea but if I'm on the other side then Id be focusing on covering my own a...  and won't be taking all the risk. Ideally I'd be hoping the land office does the escrow somehow

Edited June 2, 2023 by farang9392

[VinnieK]

You choose to live in. a country that actively discriminates against foreigners, this is the result.

Edited June 2, 2023 by VinnieK

[homeseeker]

I have to agree with many of the people posting here. The so-called businessman has " more money than sense".

British people in the UK may well be better off if they buy property in the UK as opposed to renting.

But especially for us Aliens living here in Thailand the rules are different.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by homeseeker

[Zapitapi]

13 hours ago, tgw said:

some rules:

- have a reputable real estate lawyer do all the due diligence (construction permit, check property deeds, does the seller actually own what he sells, is it free of mortgages, right of passage, correct land category, certificates of conformity of the construction, etc.)

- don't buy any expensive real estate that doesn't have a Chanote (lower grade titles can be ok for some agricultural land)

- use cashier cheques

- simultaneous transactions and transfer papers signed with witnesses at the land office only

fully agree in this regard

[newbee2022]

Paid a high price for stupidity in old age????

[JimTripper]

16 hours ago, simon43 said:

Don't hand over any money unless you receive the full ownership documents immediately by return.  (Yes, I made this mistake 20 years ago when I handed over 2.5 million baht for a rai of land (in my Thai wife's name). The cash was handed to the lawyer in Phuket, but the Thai owner actually dropped dead of a heart attack as he was going to the land office to sign the sale papers over to my wife. The (foreign) lawyer based in Phuket handed my cash over to the owner's family and they refused to sign over the land to my wife.....  I wasted THBTHBTHB trying to complete that contract, never got ownership of the land....

Money is handed over after the property is signed over, not before. Lawyer should have held the money in escrow until the papers were signed by both parties.

Edited June 2, 2023 by JimTripper

[JimTripper]

8 hours ago, Banana7 said:

When buying here are some simple instructions that can save you a lot of heart ache. This is not complete list and others will have more recommendations.

 

The purchase and sale agreement must state the purchaser will receive, upon the closing date at the time of payment, the chanote with his name on the chanote and registered so, in the land office and must receive the blue book and perhaps, the yellow book, if there is one and the property is vacant upon possession. Failure by the seller to close on the closing date, seller must return double the amount of the deposit within 3 days.

 

Always ask to see the chanote and copy it before signing the purchase and sale agreement. Get copies of government IDs from everyone involved in the purchase. The current owner is listed as the last owner in the chanote. If the seller can't produce the original chanote, not a photo copy, do not make a deposit. if they can't produce the original, walk away. Go to the land office with your lawyer and ask if there are any issues with the property and transferring it to a foreigner.  The lawyer must conduct all due diligence. There are lots of little details the lawyer needs to check. Check with the condo office if there are any issues and get copies of the latest condo financial statements, before signing the purchase and sale agreement.

 

When making final payment, which should be at least 90% of the sale price, in the land office on the closing date, only give the bank draft to the owner when your lawyer says your name is on the chanote and you physically receive the chanote and blue book. Have the owner sign a photo copy of the bank draft saying they received this payment.

 

Many times foreigners are too trusting when making real estate purchases. Educate yourself before buying!

Sounds easy, but not that easy in real life. Once your excited about a property it’s hard to insist on every little detail. You get faced with a rushed lawyer, or tired of the process and just want to get it over with, and every little thing is not done perfectly.

[farang9392]

6 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

Money is handed over after the property is signed over, not before. Lawyer should have held the money in escrow until the papers were signed by both parties.

Whose lawyer? If the buyer's then how does the seller verify the lawyer?

[4MyEgo]

18 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

accompanied the British victim, 70 year old David Edward Chapel, to the Central Suppression Division to file a complaint against the real estate company, whose name was not revealed.

70 years old and buying a condo instead of renting, wait, don't tell me, he thought that real estate was going to boooooooooooooom before he croaks it in the ensuing years and he could take it with him.

 

18 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Chapel bought a luxury condo in Koh Samui in 2016 and stayed there only three times a year. He has been trying to pursue official ownership but has been unsuccessful.

1st rule in real estate, never buy new developments unless the land title are ready.

 

2nd rule in real estate, never hand over money until land title documents are handed over upon settlement.

 

3rd rule in real estate, never buy in Thailand.

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by 4MyEgo

[JimTripper]

29 minutes ago, farang9392 said:

Whose lawyer? If the buyer's then how does the seller verify the lawyer?

They use their own lawyer. The funds get put into an escrow account. Any lawyer can verify the escrow deposit, or the seller can verify it themselves. It’s not the lawyers account, but an escrow company.

[jak2002003]

2 hours ago, farang9392 said:

That's terrible. How did it happen?

 

If I had a lump sum and was going for new property I think I'd be tempted to still use a bank mortgage, let them and their processing agent handle a lot of formalities at the land office, and if it goes belly up - somehow they manage to pull one on the bank then you're potentially out of your downpayment, better than losing it all. Of course there are early repayment fees in the first few years to consider, valuation fee, and sometimes a mortgage fee, and you'd have to consider how you can deploy your capital elsewhere to partially offset the interest rate payments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We paid for it with money from UK and got all the transfer forms as proof money was from overseas. 

 

Paid in full over several installments over one year. Had lawyer look over all the documentation and assure us contracts etc were all legit and clear.  

 

After final payment we got a copy of shanote was told condo company was going to land office to get blue book for us. Was given a swipe card key to get into condo. That's when it all went wrong and we never got the blue book. 

 

Kept giving excuses as the delays such as land office busy, they are doing the condos in batches, etc.

 

Then finally got photo copy of blue book.  But then covid happened and company was going under. The hotel chain that was part owner of the condo / hotel complex pulled out.  

 

Then new company took over. Our lawyer involved again to find out what going on. Got a deal with new owners of the building to buy back our condo off us. Advised to agree as money from previous company gone and this was our only chance to get anything back. 

 

New company started to pay us back monthly but then stopped. Excuses.. Low season, flooding, staff off sick with covid. Etc etc. Now no further payments to us.  They don't reply to calls or emails. Sent letter from layers saying we taking legal action. One more payment after that, then again all stopped. 

 

So we have only documents to say we paid for the condo. A copy of shanote and copy of a random blue book cover. 

 

We know they are letting out our room. We even had bought the furniture.  It's so annoying. We went down to Phuket a few times. Everyone does a runner. Excuses. Manager not it, gone away to meeting, call back, they will call us back, closed etc. 

 

Becasue the key is a card they changed it so we can't get into the room. There was actually a Chinese family on hikdiay in it when we went! 

 

It's been so stressful and upsetting.  I don't trust the lawyer to not just keep leading is along to get more money off us, all the while knowing we have no chance to win any case.  This has been going on several years now, 

[off road pat]

7 hours ago, Tropicalevo said:

I bought land on Samui more than 20 years ago and built three houses on it.

Sold one house seven years ago and made a decent profit on the total amount that I had invested.

Sold a second house last year. Made more than 100% on my initial investment.

I still have the third house.

When I rented the places out, they were going for 50,000 a month on average.

 

I am very glad that there are people like you to rent them out to.

Hm,...People like me,..?? I staid many years on Samui, rented a bungalow on the beach for around 6000/7000 Thb,.....

[off road pat]

5 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Rent money is money lost forever. 

Hm,...You want to collect money or you want to live ???

[off road pat]

5 hours ago, blackshadow said:

i bought my 2 roomed condo in 2009 never had any problem/s

Sure, many of my friends bought condo's/houses,...and never had problems,...but some had,....

 

[off road pat]

6 hours ago, mikeymike100 said:

If you rent, the money is lost!????

Money is lost,....so what,...the life is lived !!!

[Toby1947]

19 hours ago, Chicksaw said:

Moral of the story: Rent, don't buy. At least not anything bigger than a washing machine.

Washing machine ? That's a too big a lay out, buy nothing bigger than a box of matches off these thieving b#st#rds 

[off road pat]

6 hours ago, blackshadow said:

i bought my 2 roomed condo in 2009 never had any problem/s

Lucky you,...

[cardinalblue]

Ever heard of due diligence? He is partially at fault…trusted bad people  I mean crooks 

[newnative]

10 hours ago, Mickeymaus said:

If you have better alternatives for investing your money then buying a condo is not a good idea. 

      There's always someone who posts this observation any time real estate is an issue.  It's always put forth as an 'either or' proposition.  Like you can only do one or the other--either invest in real estate or invest in something else.   Nothing wrong with diversifying investments and doing more than just one thing with your money, as my partner and I have done--and that includes real estate in Thailand, which has been a very positive experience.   

    As for the thread, some excellent advice has been given already.  I would only add take your time and do your homework.   If you buy off-plan, I would only do so with a large, name brand developer with an excellent track record of completing projects.  

    

[BritManToo]

8 hours ago, jesimps said:

If I had my time here over again I'd do exactly that.

if I had my time over in the UK again, I'd rent not buy.

As a man it's just too easy to lose an asset that everyone can see, and can't be easily liquidated. 

[harry94]

6 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Aaaah, you have an issue with immigration. 

 

I have no issues with how Thailand manage their foreigners/expats that are living here.

 

Only issue I have is there are too many whinging and whining foreigners trying to change Thailand, demanding this and that.

Leave it alone, it works for me. 

 

If you are not happy being an 'alien' you are free to leave, no one is stopping you or forcing you to stay. 

i have been here thirteen years , but unlike you in know where i stand . i am here for my revolving door of Thai women and cheap cost of living . Up to you if you want to invest here . when it suits me i will be returning to my country with my bank balance still very healthy .i did not come here to get married or buy property when i have property back home .i am here to enjoy myself .

[SAFETY FIRST]

4 minutes ago, harry94 said:

i have been here thirteen years , but unlike you in know where i stand . i am here for my revolving door of Thai women and cheap cost of living . Up to you if you want to invest here . when it suits me i will be returning to my country with my bank balance still very healthy .i did not come here to get married or buy property when i have property back home .i am here to enjoy myself .

Thanks for your reply comment. 

 

BTW, from your comment, it sounds like you are here having a great time. ????

Edited June 2, 2023 by SAFETY FIRST

[harry94]

3 minutes ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Thanks for your reply comment. 

 

BTW, from your comment, it sounds like you're having a great time. ????

i love living in Thailand friendly people never had a problem . i have seen many foreigners here make very bad life changing mistakes and become very bitter and angry . I understand i am an Alien but that is a rule of Thailand that i except . never had a problem with immigration because i stick to the rules , it is just an excuse people make when they accuse you of being a whinnger .

[JimTripper]

8 hours ago, mikeymike100 said:

If you rent, the money is lost!????

It’s also lost a lost more if you buy and your property value goes down.

 

Property values don’t always go up! That’s a myth created by the real estate industry.

[SAFETY FIRST]

23 minutes ago, harry94 said:

 I understand i am an Alien but that is a rule of Thailand that i except

I reckon you're BITTER mate.

Bitter foreigners are typically whingers, you may not realize that you are a whinger. 

 

Why on earth would you have brought up the subject of being an Alien? 

 

 

Anyway, like I said it sounds like you are having a great time here, bahahaha ????

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by SAFETY FIRST