How do farmers survive in Isaan

[soalbundy]

I was reading my wife's calculations for the field work on her 230 rai of paddy and shook my head in disbelief. calculating ground tax, the cost of ploughing (hired tractor) and combine harvester (hired) which is cheaper than hired manual labour and considering the usual low price paid for rice, there was almost nothing left over as profit. I asked her why she bothered planting rice ( only have one harvest a year in my area). I was told that if the fields were left unused the ground tax was even higher and tax had to be payed whether she planted or not. The wife's mother recently gave all her land to the wife (in addition to her 230 rai) although I begged her not to, because since her husband died she doesn't want the burden of land taxes and rice planting, since I pay the land tax monthly I'm now saddled with it.

 

We have several neighbours who have a new tractor and combine harvester payed for by a loan from the bank which runs into several million Baht so the monthly payments must be extremely high. Of course they not only use these machines for their own paddy but hire themselves out to farmers who have no machines of their own but this can only be done in the planting and harvesting seasons, the rest of the time the machines lie idle. The farmers tell me by rule of thumb there is a bad harvest once every 7 years and that often the payment for rice is below production cost, Jesus! why bother. I asked the pu yai bahn if different commodities to plant instead of rice had been considered, he told me that yes there had been in talks with a government organization but it would seem that due to the soil composition and the lie of the land rice was the only alternative although there is some sugar cane and some rubber tree planting going on but the whole marketing infrastructure was built around rice.

 

I know there is a sort of revolver system going on where loans are taken out to cover the cost of living and are paid back at harvest time, how, I ask myself, can this work with so little profit. Naturally farmers adapt, some have cows, some have a few pigs and some work on building sites but all in all farming is a mugs game and it is no wonder that by and large one only sees middle aged to old people at village gatherings, the young turn their backs on farming and head for Bangkok. So is rice farming a lost cause (at least in Isaan). A good part of my pension is eaten by private health insurance for myself, my son and my wife (30 Baht scheme doesn't cover accidents and according to the wife the treatment offered is pretty basic for illness) electricity, and monthly land tax payments. I get a good German state pension, a company pension and a small UK pension for the short time I worked there before leaving for good so I ask myself how on earth do the Thais manage to even just live from day to day.

[blackcab]

Monthly land tax payments? How much are you paying?

 

Land and building tax is payable annually, and the effective rate for agricultural land is miniscule.

 

Ask others in the farming forum how much tax they pay per rai per year.

[VinnieK]

Reminds me of life in a certain Med country...90% of land out of production except for olive trees which have been there for generations

Impossible to sell also.

Farming is collapsing for decades now due to low prices and the flight of the young to the cities.

Here in the deep south (rubber country) the average age of a rubber tapper is 40+

This being Thailand of course, land prices are way out of touch with reality.

 

 

[soalbundy]

13 minutes ago, blackcab said:

Monthly land tax payments? How much are you paying?

 

Land and building tax is payable annually, and the effective rate for agricultural land is miniscule.

 

Ask others in the farming forum how much tax they pay per rai per year.

Yes I included the land tax for the house in Isaan and my house in Chiang Mai where my estranged legally married wife lives, the land tax for the fields is about 30,000 Baht per year which my wife (mia noi) decided to pay monthly (which is more expensive). All together the tax is around 56k a year. To my surprise many farmers also have private health insurance which seems at odds with their income possibilities. Another disappointing surprise was that when some businessmen came down from Bangkok 10 years ago they offered my wife 80 million Baht for a 100 rai piece of land which was directly on the highway but only if the adjacent farmers would sell as well, my wife was willing but all the other farmers refused, they considered it too cheap and said that eventually big concerns will try to buy land on the highways in Isaan and pay a lot more, I almost broke my dentures while gnashing in anger.

[Celsius]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

since I pay the land tax monthly

 

How did my ex girlfriend make money with her online business while selling clothes for the loss?

 

Simple. I was paying for the clothes.

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

How did my ex girlfriend make money with her online business while selling clothes for the loss?

 

Simple. I was paying for the clothes.

One way of looking at it but since the house in Isaan is in our sons name and my legal wife has transferred the chanode of the house in Chiang Mai to my son (complicated reason why) plus 50% of the farmland is also in my sons name I can't do much else.

[worgeordie]

It's the middle men and  conglomerates that make the profit, just look

at how much farmers are paid for rice, then how much it sells for in

shops and supermarkets for a 5 Kg bag , every year the Government

has to help the farmers .

regards Worgeordie

[youreavinalaff]

18 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

One way of looking at it but since the house in Isaan is in our sons name and my legal wife has transferred the chanode of the house in Chiang Mai to my son (complicated reason why) plus 50% of the farmland is also in my sons name I can't do much else.

You must bored out of your mind.

 

Still, fiction can be fun.

Edited June 4, 2023 by youreavinalaff

[jaideedave]

The answer to the question may be...have female children and hopefully they will hook up with a foreigner to help things along.When I lived in Issarn I saw several examples of this very thing.

I also saw in the middle of nowhere more than a few quite modern 2 story houses looking newer but no one living there.I asked my wife about these and the standard reply was "lady married to farang" and they live in Hua Hin/Phuket etc. The foreigner didn't want to live there.

In one driveway I saw a newer pick up truck...oh thats for the ladies mom but she don't know how to drive...hmmm mugs game

[Reginald Prewster]

You need to see it with a different point of view.

 

I am working offshore since decades and yes, I made my coin after I left Germany and it's rip off taxes on everything..

But does it make rich?

Moneywise sure... but 

 

I bought a farm now, just 17 rai and rented another 7 rai (soon more) , our grocery bill dropped significantly from year one... 

I feel getting superrich (not moneywise) since I could reduce my work rotations from 9-10 to just 6 month a year..

 

 

 

[soalbundy]

Just now, youreavinalaff said:

You are either bored out of your mind or your " mia noi" is seriously ripping you off.

 

Still, fiction can be fun.

I doubt that, I can read Thai and have all the documents, we've been together for 18 years and she is nearly 50, she has no incentive to lie, our main concern is for our sons higher education and his financial well being when I die.

Bored is a state of mind not a physical entity, I've always loved the country life, even in Germany I chose to live in a village instead of Munich despite the longer travelling times, living in London while I was still in the UK was an experience I disliked, even my son's house lies outside of Chiang Mai city. Life in a farming village in Isaan isn't for everyone I'll admit but it suites me.

[youreavinalaff]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I doubt that, I can read Thai and have all the documents, we've been together for 18 years and she is nearly 50, she has no incentive to lie, our main concern is for our sons higher education and his financial well being when I die.

Bored is a state of mind not a physical entity, I've always loved the country life, even in Germany I chose to live in a village instead of Munich despite the longer travelling times, living in London while I was still in the UK was an experience I disliked, even my son's house lies outside of Chiang Mai city. Life in a farming village in Isaan isn't for everyone I'll admit but it suites me.

I've lived in a village in Isaan for 21 years.

 

That's how I know you are looking for conversation on here and nothing else. Too many anomalies.

Edited June 4, 2023 by youreavinalaff

[soalbundy]

15 minutes ago, Reginald Prewster said:

You need to see it with a different point of view.

 

I am working offshore since decades and yes, I made my coin after I left Germany and it's rip off taxes on everything..

But does it make rich?

Moneywise sure... but 

 

I bought a farm now, just 17 rai and rented another 7 rai (soon more) , our grocery bill dropped significantly from year one... 

I feel getting superrich (not moneywise) since I could reduce my work rotations from 9-10 to just 6 month a year..

 

 

 

All my vegetables get eaten by insects but my mango trees produce giant mangoes which serve me as breakfast. I haven't worked since I was 57, I never regretted taking early retirement, working is for horses.

[LogicThai]

Why would the 30 baht scheme not cover accidents? AFAIK, be it the universal healthcare cover of the SSO, all medic al needs are covered. It is true that the level of care in public hospitals looks spartan by European standards, but I was under the impression that pretty much all conditions are treated. My father-in-law had a heart scare recently, he was rushed to the public hospital in the Amphoe and adequately treated there, then referred to the central hospital of the province for further tests etc. I offered to have him treated at the private hospital instead, but he declined, and I agreed because the private hospital (Ekachon) does not really look any better. My in-laws have life insurance, but no private healthcare insurance. They have been treated for illness and accident in the public system in the past, quite satisfactorily it seems. I remember that my mother-in-law went private on one occasion for some ailment she had, and then declared that it was a waste of money.

 

As for the economics of farming, it is true that rice farming has become totally unattractive in recent years, to the point on being unsustainable. As they advanced in age, my in-laws have adjusted accordingly. First, they stopped farming on leased land, then they sold the portion of land they could not farm themselves anymore. They diversified (rubber, manioc, sugarcane) and now they only grow rice for their own consumption (and ours…). They also gave up on cattle, but not for economic reasons. Surprisingly enough, my mother-in-law developed a candy-making business that seems amazingly lucrative.

I am not well versed in agro-economics, but it looks to me that Thailand is no different from other countries. Farming beyond subsistence is not attractive anymore, if it ever was. Like elsewhere, global trade suffocates the least-productive. Issaan farming never was particularly competitive, but it was protected by subsidies, tariffs, a ban on foreign seeds etc. Contrary to what happened in Europe among others, Thai farmers never seem to have recognized the value of unionizing, creating cooperatives, captive banks, etc., so that an entire ecosystem of traders and intermediaries capture whatever added value is produced. 
 

Edited June 4, 2023 by LogicThai

[EVENKEEL]

38 minutes ago, jaideedave said:

The answer to the question may be...have female children and hopefully they will hook up with a foreigner to help things along.When I lived in Issarn I saw several examples of this very thing.

I also saw in the middle of nowhere more than a few quite modern 2 story houses looking newer but no one living there.I asked my wife about these and the standard reply was "lady married to farang" and they live in Hua Hin/Phuket etc. The foreigner didn't want to live there.

In one driveway I saw a newer pick up truck...oh thats for the ladies mom but she don't know how to drive...hmmm mugs game

You may have seen my home I built and moved away from.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

I've lived in a village in Isaan for 21 years.

 

That's how I know you are looking for conversation on here and nothing else. Too many anomalies.

Yes that as well, I enjoy writing and deep discussions but asking a rice farmer whether he thinks the universe is a manifestation of consciousness is expecting too much but I have more luck with the abbot of our village temple. The older I get (I'm 75 now) the more joy I get from small children, I am the go person for my small step grandchildren whose mothers I brought up from a very young age, I feel blessed with satisfaction and peace after years of stressful but enjoyable work in a high powered office at BMW in Munich, toil and tears but with much laughter, all behind me now.

[youreavinalaff]

13 minutes ago, LogicThai said:

Why would the 30 baht scheme not cover accidents? AFAIK, be it the universal healthcare cover of the SSO, all medic al needs are covered. It is true that the level of care in public hospitals looks spartan by European standards, but I was under the impression that pretty much all conditions are treated. My father-in-law had a heart scare recently, he was rushed to the public hospital in the Amphoe and adequately treated there, then referred to the central hospital of the province for further tests etc. I offered to have him treated at the private hospital instead, but he declined, and I agreed because the private hospital (Ekachon) does not really look any better. My in-laws have life insurance, but no private healthcare insurance. They have been treated for illness and accident in the public system in the past, quite satisfactorily it seems. I remember that my mother-in-law went private on one occasion for some ailment she had, and then declared that it was a waste of money.

 

As for the economics of farming, it is true that rice farming has become totally unattractive in recent years, to the point on being unsustainable. As they advanced in age, my in-laws have adjusted accordingly. First, they stopped farming on leased land, then they sold the portion of land they could not farm themselves anymore. They diversified (rubber, manioc, sugarcane) and now they only grow rice for their own consumption (and ours…). They also gave up on cattle, but not for economic reasons. Surprisingly enough, my mother-in-law developed a candy-making business that seems amazingly lucrative.

I am not well versed in agro-economics, but it looks to me that Thailand is no different from other countries. Farming beyond subsistence is not attractive anymore, if it ever was. Like elsewhere, global trade suffocates the least-productive. Issaan farming never was particularly competitive, but it was protected by subsidies, tariffs, a ban on foreign seeds etc. Contrary to what happened in Europe among others, Thai farmers never seem to have recognized the value of unionizing, creating cooperatives, captive banks, etc., so that an entire ecosystem of traders and intermediaries capture whatever added value is produced. 
 

I agree with your comments on health care.

 

Farming? Can be done well and money can be made with forward planning and not getting sucked into debt.

 

My father in law always saves seed from the previous year's crop. That saves a lot. He does not use fertilizer. He uses eco methods. Ducks, a chicken coop above a lake full of fish. Channels from the lake for the fish to swim in the rice fields. Easily makes enough enrichment for the rice.

 

Minimal debt means no need to sell the rice at the first opportunity. Save it for when the price goes up. Sell milled rice to the locals when they've run out. 

 

He's not making loads of money but from 10 rai he has enough to eat and enough to sell to keep him going with food, bills and some baht for a gamble every now and then. He doesn't drink or smoke.

 

If someone says they can't make money on 230 rai they are either making serial mistakes or keeping the profits secret.

Edited June 4, 2023 by youreavinalaff

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

I was told that if the fields were left unused the ground tax was even higher and tax had to be payed whether she planted or not.

I hear your frustration, we have some rice fields we  inherited from my wife's father, and we lease then to her uncles because it is not worth  the effort. They give us a little money to cover expenses and some rice .

 If you don't want to do that,I have been told that if you don't want to pay higher taxes in your land because it is uncultivated, to plant Bananas. 

Not sure how true it is because I have not tried it myself, but don't you wonder why all these empty lots around town have banana trees in them? 

[LogicThai]

I don't know about the tax on farmland, but it does not seem to be a big concern, if at all. It certainly does not get mentioned around me, as I am sure it would if real money had to be paid out ????

Land tax for our villa in Koh Samui is only a few hundreds per year, so how much could it fetch for a few rai of farmland, really?

[JimTripper]

1 hour ago, jaideedave said:

The answer to the question may be...have female children and hopefully they will hook up with a foreigner to help things along.When I lived in Issarn I saw several examples of this very thing.

I also saw in the middle of nowhere more than a few quite modern 2 story houses looking newer but no one living there.I asked my wife about these and the standard reply was "lady married to farang" and they live in Hua Hin/Phuket etc. The foreigner didn't want to live there.

In one driveway I saw a newer pick up truck...oh thats for the ladies mom but she don't know how to drive...hmmm mugs game

Why don’t Foreigner-Thai couples ever build modest homes to fit into the rest of the community?

 

Maybe they want to stand out as special in some way, or better then others???

 

Or pride, trying to buy respect??

Edited June 4, 2023 by JimTripper

[youreavinalaff]

5 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

Why don’t Foreigner-Thai couples ever build modest homes to fit into the rest of the community?

 

Maybe they want to stand out as special in some way, or better then others???

 

Or pride, trying to buy respect??

Good point. Exactly what we did. 

 

Build what you need to live in. Houses in villages have no sell on value. It's a home. Not an investment.

[soalbundy]

6 minutes ago, LogicThai said:

Why would the 30 baht scheme not cover accidents? AFAIK, be it the universal healthcare cover of the SSO, all medic al needs are covered. It is true that the level of care in public hospitals looks spartan by European standards, but I was under the impression that pretty much all conditions are treated. My father-in-law had a heart scare recently, he was rushed to the public hospital in the Amphoe and adequately treated there, then referred to the central hospital of the province for further tests etc. I offered to have him treated at the private hospital instead, but he declined, and I agreed because the private hospital (Ekachon) does not really look any better. My in-laws have life insurance, but no private healthcare insurance. They have been treated for illness and accident in the public system in the past, quite satisfactorily it seems. I remember that my mother-in-law went private on one occasion for some ailment she had, and then declared that it was a waste of money.

 

As for the economics of farming, it is true that rice farming has become totally unattractive in recent years, to the point on being unsustainable. As they advanced in age, my in-laws have adjusted accordingly. First, they stopped farming on leased land, then they sold the portion of land they could not farm themselves anymore. They diversified (rubber, manioc, sugarcane) and now they only grow rice for their own consumption (and ours…). They also gave up on cattle, but not for economic reasons. Surprisingly enough, my mother-in-law developed a candy-making business that seems amazingly lucrative.

I am not well versed in agro-economics, but it looks to me that Thailand is no different from other countries. Farming beyond subsistence is not attractive anymore, if it ever was. Like elsewhere, global trade suffocates the least-productive. Issaan farming never was particularly competitive, but it was protected by subsidies, tariffs, a ban on foreign seeds etc. Contrary to what happened in Europe among others, Thai farmers never seem to have recognized the value of unionizing, creating cooperatives, captive banks, etc., so that an entire ecosystem of traders and intermediaries capture whatever added value is produced. 
 

I agree with most of what you have written but the universal health care doesn't include accidents. I heard a joke once that went, the 30 Baht scheme covers all illnesses but you have to have all those illnesses to get covered. My wife got TB a few years ago and went to the government hospital as it was nearer  for treatment but nothing they did helped, it seemed she had a resistent strain. We then went to a private clinic in Surin, the doctor looked at the medication she had been given and said we can do better than than that and prescribed injections to be given each day. One has to pay in advance when private and send the bills to the insurance, however the doctor balked at giving us the bill, "it is a new medication from Europe and you don't want to know the price, take the medication to your local clinic and I will arrange everything with the insurance" it worked a treat but I never did know the cost, first time I never paid up front.

Another time I went to the local doctor because I suspected I had dengue fever, he said I was feeling weak and not eating because I was old, that was normal, I drove to the private hospital in Surin where blood and urine samples were sent to the lab, I was given an emergency admission, the doctor said I had dengue fever and my body was going into shock and no I couldn't go home to get Pyjamas, he was surprised I was able to drive there.

I think when you pay, the standard of treatment is better but I wouldn't necessarily choose Bangkok hospital, the private hospital in Surin is an amalgamation of doctors who also work for the government hospitals, lots of Thai patients.

[soalbundy]

14 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

Why don’t Foreigner-Thai couples ever build modest homes to fit into the rest of the community?

 

Maybe they want to stand out as special in some way, or better then others???

 

Or pride, trying to buy respect??

Both my houses are western style bungalows, hardly living the life of lords of the manor.

[Bill97]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

the land tax for the fields is about 30,000 Baht per year

Oh too much too much.  

[soalbundy]

45 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

I agree with your comments on health care.

 

Farming? Can be done well and money can be made with forward planning and not getting sucked into debt.

 

My father in law always saves seed from the previous year's crop. That saves a lot. He does not use fertilizer. He uses eco methods. Ducks, a chicken coop above a lake full of fish. Channels from the lake for the fish to swim in the rice fields. Easily makes enough enrichment for the rice.

 

Minimal debt means no need to sell the rice at the first opportunity. Save it for when the price goes up. Sell milled rice to the locals when they've run out. 

 

He's not making loads of money but from 10 rai he has enough to eat and enough to sell to keep him going with food, bills and some baht for a gamble every now and then. He doesn't drink or smoke.

 

If someone says they can't make money on 230 rai they are either making serial mistakes or keeping the profits secret.

You can make a small profit but its not enough to live off all year round. We even stopped using chemical fertilizer and started using the village self made fertilizer from rice husks and chicken poo which was much cheaper but the yields were lower. Once we took about 15 sacks of jasmine rice to Chiang Mai by train and sold them for 25 Baht a kilo privately, the government was giving us 12 Baht which was good by normal standards, production costs are around 6 Baht a kilo so when you get 8 to 10 Baht a kilo you aren't doing well.

[bignok]

Most small businesses in Thailand don't seem to make enough to cover costs when you look at it. Maybe I'm wrong. 

[soalbundy]

52 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I hear your frustration, we have some rice fields we  inherited from my wife's father, and we lease then to her uncles because it is not worth  the effort. They give us a little money to cover expenses and some rice .

 If you don't want to do that,I have been told that if you don't want to pay higher taxes in your land because it is uncultivated, to plant Bananas. 

Not sure how true it is because I have not tried it myself, but don't you wonder why all these empty lots around town have banana trees in them? 

Yes plenty of banana plots in our area. I wanted to try grapes but the soil isn't right and you would have to be on guard day and night.

[LogicThai]

20 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I agree with most of what you have written but the universal health care doesn't include accidents.

This is most surprising. How could that be? All public hospitals have an ER ward, where you see an endless stream of patients who hurt themselves in a variety of ways, the largest proportion being from road accidents. Surely, the universal healthcare covers that too? I am under the SSO, which is different from the Universal scheme, but there is no mention whatsoever of accidents not being covered.

I am not opposed to private healthcare insurance. In fact, I had quite a deep look into private insurance schemes in Thailand, and I found that the schemes are on the whole quite unattractive. There are many exceptions, limits, and overall the value for money is pretty poor. I am surprised that so many Thai people buy such poor value schemes. It may be a status thing, or maybe they simply do not want to queue for hours in a public hospital?

For myself, in addition to SSO, that I never actually use, I have an international private healthcare insurance that provides extensive coverage worldwide, including Thailand. It only covers in-patient care, and it has quite a hefty excess to keep the premium at a reasonable level, and for whatever small health issue, I self-insure and pay for private care whenever needed (although I could use SSO, I suppose).

[youreavinalaff]

12 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

You can make a small profit but its not enough to live off all year round. We even stopped using chemical fertilizer and started using the village self made fertilizer from rice husks and chicken poo which was much cheaper but the yields were lower. Once we took about 15 sacks of jasmine rice to Chiang Mai by train and sold them for 25 Baht a kilo privately, the government was giving us 12 Baht which was good by normal standards, production costs are around 6 Baht a kilo so when you get 8 to 10 Baht a kilo you aren't doing well.

Your figures are so far out its laughable. Someone is having you over a barrel.

 

Also, 30bt scheme in hospitals covers everything. Even accidents.

 

If your accident happens to be a motoring accident, you also have Por Ror Bor insurance.

[jaideedave]

49 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

Why don’t Foreigner-Thai couples ever build modest homes to fit into the rest of the community?

 

Maybe they want to stand out as special in some way, or better then others???

 

Or pride, trying to buy respect??

From what I see it's usually older well off farang who has the cash and he's in love with a much younger woman.It usually doesn't click in until its too late.

Ask me how I know...