Work Permit now possible with retirement extension

[mokwit]

3 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

Copies of work experience certificates from previous employers

Huh, whats that?

[george]

54 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Back to the OP.  While I question the accuracy of the content, the only way this can be validated is a post of the WP and the retirement Visa in place. 

 

I was curious enough that I called my admin as she does all the WP updates for the expats at our factory and asked about a retirement Visa and a WP. She said No.   An expat cannot have a retirement visa and a WP.  The requirements for a retirement visa and extensions are very clearly defined.

 

Now being fair, there is a good chance that the said individual who told the OP is confused or didn't look close at his Visa extension stamped in his Passport "IF" the person really has a WP. Quite honestly acquiring a WP is not just go apply and receive it. The initial application has a pretty long list of requirements then annual reviews require medical and employment confirmation etc.  

 

I personally accompanied the British guy to Labour Department after having had his paperwork and complete paperwork from employer, WP3 etc etc.  sorted (complete stack of documentation, no change here). I was also present when he picked up his WP booklet. 
 

Not sure if this is a local change or nationwide. Or a one-off thing.

 

I was also curious, and that was the reason for my op. I will check with Labour here for any official change and get back to you.

 

Don’t shoot the messenger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DrJack54]

7 minutes ago, george said:

 

Not sure if this is a local change or nationwide. Or a one-off thing.

Or an error.

But start a thread anyway.

The thread heading doesn't even have a ? mark.

[Andrew Dwyer]

11 minutes ago, george said:

 

I personally accompanied the British guy to Labour Department after having had his paperwork and complete paperwork from employer, WP3 etc etc.  sorted (complete stack of documentation, no change here). I was also present when he picked up his WP booklet. 
 

Not sure if this is a local change or nationwide. Or a one-off thing.

 

I was also curious, and that was the reason for my op. I will check with Labour here for any official change and get back to you.

 

Don’t shoot the messenger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well it’s definitely different.

Keep us informed of any further outcome on this matter.

[Ralf001]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Or an error.

But start a thread anyway.

The thread heading doesn't even have a ? mark.

Yes, thread title is very much click bait... But George being the founding member and Ex TV forum Owner knows this.

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, george said:

 

 

 

Don’t shoot the messenger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Understood. Of course the thread subject makes it appear that expats can now have acquire a WP with a retirement visa and until any of us see a revised govt official update I think this is a one off mistake or the information isn't complete.

[Maestro]

9 hours ago, Reginald Prewster said:

This was my 11th retirement Visa and last 5 years I tried to get a WP...

The labor department speaks some strange language as it COULD be possible but it won't be in my case because its about helping my wife on the farm, and that's a Thai job.

 

BUT, if I go for the marriage Visa it is no problem, because I help my wife ON our farm but not outside of it. Delivering, transport or selling on the market would be in this case a Thai job...

 

Understood? No? Me neither, but I'll go for the marriage visa next time... 

 

There must have been some misunderstanding on your part. 

 

One of the requirements for getting a work permit is an employment contract. Another requirement is that the work specified in the contract is a type of work for which the law allows the department of employment to issue a work permit to you. You did not meet these criteria and would also not have met them if your extension of stay had been for the reason of living with your Thai wife.

[Maestro]

8 hours ago, george said:

British guy, 55 years old.

 

Original visa sticker: NON-O with remark “retirement “

 

Extension 1 year without any change in visa type (visa extension labeled RETIREMENT).

 

Labour dept. granted a 1 year WP and he was approved for social fund.

 

 

 

Thank you for posting this additional information. No need for posting scans or photos of the stamps because the founder of this forum, formerly knows as ThaiVisa forum, surely knows what he has been shown by this Brit.

 

Another member already quoted some text, source not given, indicating that the requirements listed by the Department of Employment includes a non-O, without limitation of the reason for which the non-O visa or the one-year extension of stay was issued. I clearly remember having seen this list and with that requirement some years ago but try as I might, I cannot find it now on their website.

 

My conclusion is that whereas it may be true that some or all branches of the Department of Labour have in some or all cases refused to to issue a work permit to the holder of an applicant with a permission to stay for the reason of retirement, if such application has ever been made in such circumstance, there is no legal obstacle for the Department of Labour to do so. 

[Maestro]

8 hours ago, JAFO said:

...I was curious enough that I called my admin as she does all the WP updates for the expats at our factory and asked about a retirement Visa and a WP. She said No.   An expat cannot have a retirement visa and a WP.  The requirements for a retirement visa and extensions are very clearly defined...

 

As I just mentioned in another post, I am desperately looking for this list of requirements on the website of the Ministry of Labour, respectively the Ministry's Department of Employment, but cannot find. I would greatly appreciate it if you asked your admin if she can give you the link to the apposite web page.

[Maestro]

I found it again, the Department of Employment's list of requirements for the work permit application. I downloaded it many years ago and saved it in the cloud.

 

WP.1 Work permit application - requirements.pdf

 

I still would like to get the current link to this list on their website but can't find it. Their website is different from the way I remember it.

 

Help!!!

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Maestro
added link to DoE website

[Maestro]

I think I have finally found the link:

https://www.doe.go.th/prd/assets/upload/files/alien_en/2bf65c018f67113a959f9e83dd9f697e.pdf

 

I got to that PDF file by clicking on the line WP. 25... on the web page 

https://www.doe.go.th/prd/alien/downloads/param/site/152/cat/14/sub/0/pull/category/view/list-label

[Maestro]

Removed some off-topic posts and replies to them.

[Maestro]

Removed some more off-topic posts.

 

I am not going to the beginning of this topic and remove all off-topic posts and replies to them from that point forward, but let's stay on topic from here on.

 

So, what posts are on topic?

 

1. Posts confirming that a foreigner on a retirement extension has recently applied for and received a work permit.

 

2. Posts commenting on whether or not the Department of Employment (DoE) now has the legal and regulatory authority to issue a work permit to a foreigner who is on a retirement extension, with links to the information on relevant government websites.

 

3. Posts commenting whether or not the DoE did not, in the past, have the legal and regulatory authority to issue a work permit to a foreigner who is on a retirement extension, with links to the information on relevant government websites.

 

4. Posts confirming that in the past, a foreigner on a retirement extension applied for and and was denied a work permit for the reason that his permission to stay was based on a retirement extension.

 

[FritsSikkink]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:16 PM, Alex2554 said:

Labor Department does not require any visa, you can apply on visa exempt. Next step is to obtain a visa that allows to work
 

You can always apply on something, doesn't mean you get it.

A visa doesn't allow you to work, a work permit does.

A visa can prohibit you to work.

[Neeranam]

On 8/20/2023 at 9:56 PM, Maestro said:

I think I have finally found the link:

https://www.doe.go.th/prd/assets/upload/files/alien_en/2bf65c018f67113a959f9e83dd9f697e.pdf

 

I got to that PDF file by clicking on the line WP. 25... on the web page 

https://www.doe.go.th/prd/alien/downloads/param/site/152/cat/14/sub/0/pull/category/view/list-label

I've spent time reading through the website and can't see anything that would stop the DoL giving a WP. The only issue I can see is from Immigration when getting a new Retirement Visa. At the moment, could the Immigration police charge the guy for working if the DoL say it's OK?

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

I've spent time reading through the website and can't see anything that would stop the DoL giving a WP. The only issue I can see is from Immigration when getting a new Retirement Visa. At the moment, could the Immigration police charge the guy for working if the DoL say it's OK?

The issue would be the application for permission to stay based upon retirement.

The applicant has to state the reason for requesting an extension of stay. In the case of retirement this can only be reasonable construed that the applicant is retired and does not intend to work.

Thus if the applicant subsequently applies for a WP the initial application for extension would be fraudulent unless the reason for stay is changed.

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

I've spent time reading through the website and can't see anything that would stop the DoL giving a WP. The only issue I can see is from Immigration when getting a new Retirement Visa. At the moment, could the Immigration police charge the guy for working if the DoL say it's OK?

 

Thank for for doing that search on the DoE website.

 

Immigration officials have no legal or regulatory authority to issue a fine to to this work permit holder or to any foreigner in general for any alleged violation of the laws and regulation regarding work by foreigners in Thailand. Their authority to issue fines is governed — and limited — by section 84 of the Immigration Act and rules and regulations established under the authority of that section.

[Ralf001]

29 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Never said it was forbidden, just thought they all moved to online versions by now.

Recently renewed mine and asked to go digital.

No was the answer.

[KhaoNiaw]

11 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

Recently renewed mine and asked to go digital.

No was the answer.

This year my work permit book was declared full after 23 years of stamps. I was issued with a new blue book. Nothing digital. 

[Ralf001]

6 minutes ago, KhaoNiaw said:

This year my work permit book was declared full after 23 years of stamps. I was issued with a new blue book. Nothing digital. 

Definitely comes down to different offices and even individual officers.

One Stop EEC Chonburi were very adamant digital was not available.

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

Thank for for doing that search on the DoE website.

 

Immigration officials have no legal or regulatory authority to issue a fine to to this work permit holder or to any foreigner in general for any alleged violation of the laws and regulation regarding work by foreigners in Thailand. Their authority to issue fines is governed — and limited — by section 84 of the Immigration Act and rules and regulations established under the authority of that section.

Interesting, I didn't know that but suspected it to be so, despite them being part of the RTP.

One often sees Immigration Police taking part in joint stings. 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

 

 

 

[Maestro]

3 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

The issue would be the application for permission to stay based upon retirement.

The applicant has to state the reason for requesting an extension of stay. In the case of retirement this can only be reasonable construed that the applicant is retired and does not intend to work.

Thus if the applicant subsequently applies for a WP the initial application for extension would be fraudulent unless the reason for stay is changed.

 

That's an interesting point. Let's, for a start, look at the chronology of this particular case.

 

1. Application at immigration for one-year extension of stay with the form TM.7 and taking into account point 22 of the guidelines of the Bureau of Immigration. On the line "Reason of extension", the applicant writes "Retirement". (The application gets approved)

 

2. Application at the DoE for a work permit, with submission all required documents. (The application gets approved and the work permit is issued)

 

Now, let's analyse where the commitment of fraud might have occurred. You play the part of the prosecutor and I play the part of the defence lawyer. 

 

Ready, steady, go! 

You may want to rephrase your accusation of fraud and cite the relevant section of the relevant Thai law, in the English translation known as the Criminal Code, sometimes also called the Penal Code. As with all legal matters, where a discrepancy in interpretation arises, the original Thai text applies and for this reason I give also the link to the original Thai text of the Criminal Code. (There may have been amendments to the law which are not reflected in the liked documents)

 

[Maestro]

I have removed more off-topic posts and will continue to do so, from now on without posting a note about it every time. If anyone feels that a post in this topic was removed in error, please send me a PM and I shall review it and give a detailed explanation.

[cleopatra2]

3 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

That's an interesting point. Let's, for a start, look at the chronology of this particular case.

 

1. Application at immigration for one-year extension of stay with the form TM.7 and taking into account point 22 of the guidelines of the Bureau of Immigration. On the line "Reason of extension", the applicant writes "Retirement". (The application gets approved)

 

2. Application at the DoE for a work permit, with submission all required documents. (The application gets approved and the work permit is issued)

 

Now, let's analyse where the commitment of fraud might have occurred. You play the part of the prosecutor and I play the part of the defence lawyer. 

 

Ready, steady, go! 

You may want to rephrase your accusation of fraud and cite the relevant section of the relevant Thai law, in the English translation known as the Criminal Code, sometimes also called the Penal Code. As with all legal matters, where a discrepancy in interpretation arises, the original Thai text applies and for this reason I give also the link to the original Thai text of the Criminal Code. (There may have been amendments to the law which are not reflected in the liked documents)

 

It would fall in section 341 .

Causing the immigration officer to issue a permit of stay without declaring the full facts.

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

It would fall in section 341 .

Causing the immigration officer to issue a permit of stay without declaring the full facts.

 

Thank you. 

 

I have rephrased the prosecutor's opening address to the judge in this hypothetical court case in legal jargon as shown below. I am rather busy right now but plan to formulate and post the defence lawyer's response tomorrow.

 

Prosecutor to the judge:

Quote

 

Your Honour,

 

the accused committed fraud under section 341 of the Criminal Code when, on [date a], he applied for extension of temporary stay in the Kingdom at the [name] immigration office and wrote the English word “Retirement” on the line “Reasons of extension” on the application form TM.7 and later, after having been granted this extension of stay, applied at the Department of Employment (DoE) of the Ministry of Labour for a work permit and after having been issued this permit started to work.

 

In doing so, the accused dishonestly deceived the immigration official to whom, on [date a], he submitted his application for extension of stay by concealing facts which should have been revealed, and by such deception caused the official to accept his application and get it processed and approved by the immigration office.

 

 

Background information for the readers

Quote

 

Section 341 of the Criminal Code

Whoever, dishonestly deceives a person with the assertion of a falsehood or the concealment of the facts which should be revealed, and, by such deception, obtains a property from the person so deceived or a third person, or causes the person so deceived or a third person to execute, revoke or destroy a document of right, is said to commit the offence of cheating and fraud, and shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding three years or fined not exceeding six thousand Baht, or both.

 

 

[BritTim]

12 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I've spent time reading through the website and can't see anything that would stop the DoL giving a WP. The only issue I can see is from Immigration when getting a new Retirement Visa. At the moment, could the Immigration police charge the guy for working if the DoL say it's OK?

I do not think so. I have been coming to the same conclusions. It is interesting that when you apply for a Non O-A visa or tourist visa, it invariably stated EMPLOYMENT PROHIBITED at the bottom. A Non O visa does not. My suspicion is that it has been due to policy rather than law that work permits have been denied to retirees on Non O visas.

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

I do not think so. I have been coming to the same conclusions. It is interesting that when you apply for a Non O-A visa or tourist visa, it invariably stated EMPLOYMENT PROHIBITED at the bottom. A Non O visa does not. My suspicion is that it has been due to policy rather than law that work permits have been denied to retirees on Non O visas.

 

No visa allows employment, regardless whether or not is has the statement EMPLOYMENT PROHIBITED. A work permit allows employment. We should stop talking about visas.

 

But we can ponder why we have not, until now, read in this forum about confirmed and verified cases where a foreigner on a retirement extension, ie on a permission to stay granted for the reason of retirement, obtained a work permit. Do foreigners with this status not apply for work permits? Do prospective employers of foreigners with this status not consider helping with the application for a work permit unless the foreigner gives up his retirement extension status?

 

How many confirmed and verified cases have we seen, say over the past twelve months, about the DoE refusing a work permit to a foreigner on a retirement extension? (Cases where the employer said it was not possible, without having tried it, don't count)

 

There is one report in this topic by a man on a retirement extension who inquired at the DoE about getting a work permit to allow him to help his with with the work on her farm and was told that it was not possible. Of course it was not possible, a work permit cannot be issued for his farm work. Nothing to do with his retirement extension.

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, Maestro said:

No visa allows employment, regardless whether or not is has the statement EMPLOYMENT PROHIBITED. A work permit allows employment. We should stop talking about visas.

One of the firm requirements (and this is by law) is that you must be on a non immigrant entry or permanent residence. You cannot just ignore one of the key requirements for being issued a work permit. The visa does not automatically give you the right to work, but it is still a prerequisite. I assume you would agree that having an employer is necessary for a work permit in spite of the fact that the employer does not issue you the work permit.

[Ralf001]

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

One of the firm requirements (and this is by law) is that you must be on a non immigrant entry 

You can enter visa exempt I though and convert to non-b in country, or am I wrong ?

[Ben Zioner]

4 hours ago, Maestro said:

Do foreigners with this status not apply for work permits? Do prospective employers of foreigners with this status not consider helping with the application for a work permit unless the foreigner gives up his retirement extension status?

To me it makes sense that someone who retired doesn't apply for a work permit.