Electric car fire: Week-old million baht vehicle ignites in Udon Thani mall

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

No I don't....  But, I am completely open minded on this.

 

As you've disagreed with every stat presented thus far - perhaps you could find something ?

 

So we are now looking for: 

 

ICE fires per 1,000,000 km travelled (or measurable metric)

EV fires per 1,000,000 km travelled (or measurable metric)

China made EV fires per 1,000,000 km travelled (or measurable metric)

I doubt the China made EV stats are available yet, and if the stats came out of China they would be meaningless

Edited September 4, 2023 by JBChiangRai
Spillong

[richard_smith237]

44 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

56 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Is asking for numbers/miles driven being bias? Good lord!

We agree that ICEs is more prone to fires than EVs, but the numbers are not as rosy as the EV industry is claiming. 

The numbers per mile driven were already given, as follows:

 

- 55 fires per 1.6 billion kilometres in ICE cars

 

- 5 fires per 1.6 billion kilometres in EV's

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/life/motoring/electric-vehicle-fires-less-common-but-still-problematic

 

I'd say those stats look fairly good for EV's.

I think his [ExpatOilWorker's] argument is against Chinese E.V's.

 

It's possible that BYD has a problem and the Chinese EV's are involved in combustion incidents at a greater incidence than EV's from elsewhere (i.e. Tesla) - thus he [ExpatOilWorker] wants to see stats for Chinese EV's alone. 

 

I think that would be a useful stat to get hold of given the discussion and that this story is about a China made BYD EV.

 

 

 

 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Well, if I was a bettin' man, I am at the casino, but playing the odds, considering the low number of BEV fires, vs ICEV fires, as not much argument there ...

 

... then concerning Hybrids, and cause of those fire, I'd wager most were from the ICE components vs the battery.

 

Spin that wheel ... ????

Weeell, you would, and I bet you were sweating over the burned ride being an MG............????

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

I’m not anti-EV, but I won’t buy one until I can drive one fully loaded and charged for 700 km.

Just curious - how often do you drive your existing car, fully loaded for 700km at a time ???

 

We do long trips once or twice per year - and they are usually between 200km and 340km.

Nothing an EV can't handle in one go (and charge over night while there).

 

Additionally, we do about 60km per day with the school run and charging an EV over night would mean we save a negligible amount of time not having to fill up with petrol every week.

 

Thus - for our purposes an EV would make sense, but I'd worry about the second hand value of the car falling off a cliff after 6 years. Who wants to buy an 6 or 7 year old Tesla ??

 

So... while trying to keep an open mind, these discussions are interesting, however, they are often clouded by ridiculous bias - I just don't know why some people hate EV's so much.

 

 

Personally, I think carbon capture is a better cleaner way to go than EV's...  at the point an EV leaves a showroom its carbon footprint is significantly greater than an equivalent ICE and it takes years to offset that difference.

 

But, from a car perspective and convenience perspective EV's have a lot going for them. 

There are also a lot of irrational emotional arguments against them which have poor grounding in fact. 

 

[richard_smith237]

9 minutes ago, transam said:

Weeell, you would, and I bet you were sweating over the burned ride being an MG............????

IF it was a burnt MG we wouldn't have seen KhunLA for weeks !!!....  

 

 

But... it was a BYD - is there a suggestion that this specific make has fire-safety issues ?

 

OR, is there a suggestion that Chinese made EV's have specific fire-safety issues ?

 

 

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

55 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Try to keep up, that is cherry ???? picking Tesla numbers only for EV fires Vs. all brand and vehicle types for ICE.

Let's see some honest stats for Chinese made EVs ????. You have those numbers?

I don't think you read the article properly. Those stats were not for Tesla. The figure for Tesla was given as "one fire for every 328 million kilometres travelled." The figure of 5 fires per 1.6 billion kilometers was for EV's in general.

 

Quote

Tesla of course could have a bias here, but other sources are suggesting a similar result. The Phosphorus, Inorganic and Nitrogen Flame Retardants Association suggested about 55 fires per 1.6 billion kilometres in ICE cars, compared with five fires for EVs for the same distance.

 

[StayinThailand2much]

7 hours ago, Keep Right said:

These EV cars are death traps and I will never drive them.

Yes, there are reports that esp. the car batteries of Chinese ones like to go up in flames. Was the one in the OP made in China?

[ExpatOilWorker]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Let me translate that to English for you

 

"I don't like those inconvenient stats, please provide stats that don't exist yet"

If you are afraid of information outside the EV box, just say so.

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Yes, there are reports that esp. the car batteries of Chinese ones like to go up in flames. Was the one in the OP made in China?

Yes, you’re right, there are reports that EV’s go up in flames about 10 times less often than ICE vehicles (comparing like for like).

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, ExpatOilWorker said:

If you are afraid of information outside the EV box, just say so.

Okay, I will, should that unlikely event ever arise.

[Liverpool Lou]

5 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

If a Merc busts into flames on the expressway in BKK, I've never heard that German engineers are investigating the cause.????

Maybe they didn't think that it was necessary to let you know!

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

If you are afraid of information outside the EV box, just say so.

Provide some information...   thats all anyone has asked of your input. 

 

So far you are refuting the information provided in what I would consider reliable sources. 

 

Can you find any information which supports your views ? - it would be a great discussion point to read this. 

[KhunLA]

17 minutes ago, transam said:

Weeell, you would, and I bet you were sweating over the burned ride being an MG............????

Not even a little bit ... 

... was curious about the battery chemistry, and apparent a moot subject, as apparently, not even involved.

 

So 4 pages for a big nothing, as usual.

[ExpatOilWorker]

31 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

No I don't....  But, I am completely open minded on this.

 

As you've disagreed with every stat presented thus far - perhaps you could find something ?

 

So we are now looking for: 

 

ICE fires per 1,000,000 km travelled (or measurable metric)

EV fires per 1,000,000 km travelled (or measurable metric)

China made EV fires per 1,000,000 km travelled (or measurable metric)

Absolutely ???? % correct. 

Actually, you can group 2 and 3 together, as all EV. 90% would be from China anyway.

[Isaan sailor]

10 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Just curious - how often do you drive your existing car, fully loaded for 700km at a time ???

 

There are also a lot of irrational emotional arguments against them which have poor grounding in fact. 

 

We have a house in Isaan, and a house on the Gulf.  We take many trips back and forth during the high season.  We even go a few times in this low season. Takes 9-10 hours door to door.  My Ranger has a 1000 km range with its 80-liter tank.  I bring bicycles, clothes and even boat parts.  It is our lifestyle and I wouldn’t change it.  I have no use for an EV at present limitations.

[ExpatOilWorker]

30 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I think his [ExpatOilWorker's] argument is against Chinese E.V's.

 

It's possible that BYD has a problem and the Chinese EV's are involved in combustion incidents at a greater incidence than EV's from elsewhere (i.e. Tesla) - thus he [ExpatOilWorker] wants to see stats for Chinese EV's alone. 

 

I think that would be a useful stat to get hold of given the discussion and that this story is about a China made BYD EV.

 

 

 

 

I am not against Chinese EV, just want to see the statistical evidence. If they are better than Teslas, so be it, but show us the numbers.

[richard_smith237]

15 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Try to keep up, that is cherry ???? picking Tesla numbers only for EV fires Vs. all brand and vehicle types for ICE.

Let's see some honest stats for Chinese made EVs ????. You have those numbers?

I don't think you read the article properly. Those stats were not for Tesla. The figure for Tesla was given as "one fire for every 328 million kilometres travelled." The figure of 5 fires per 1.6 billion kilometers was for EV's in general.

 

Quote

Tesla of course could have a bias here, but other sources are suggesting a similar result. The Phosphorus, Inorganic and Nitrogen Flame Retardants Association suggested about 55 fires per 1.6 billion kilometres in ICE cars, compared with five fires for EVs for the same distance.

 

Indeed... I have been quite surprised by the overwhelming nature of the information provided highlighting the significantly greater incidences of fires involving ICE vehicles then Electric Vehicles. 

 

I have not found one piece of information which contradicts this. 

 

The only contraction to any of the information presented thus far is ExpatOilWorkers opinion that there is some sort of global conspiracy against ICE's... 

 

Its not particularly sensible response - it would be interesting to know if his opinion is something developed from discussions over beers with mates, or if there is any basis in fact. 

 

If there were any basis in fact, he'd surely be able to present some such information to back up his belief. 

 

[transam]

7 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

IF it was a burnt MG we wouldn't have seen KhunLA for weeks !!!....  

 

 

But... it was a BYD - is there a suggestion that this specific make has fire-safety issues ?

 

OR, is there a suggestion that Chinese made EV's have specific fire-safety issues ?

 

 

 

We will all be riding in EV's in the not too distant future, except me, as I will probably be in a box with no wheels by then. ????

 

My involvement in these threads is putting points forward, I am sure it was much the same for discussion when oil powered rides came along all those years back.

EV's are still in their early stages, but motor production is geared for speed, one hopes the battery assembly can provide 100% safety using that speed, costs saving process.

Have read a few things on BYD regarding battery fires in China, I haven't read anything that I can remember regarding battery fires in high-end cars, with high-end car oil powered engines they are meticulously assembled, unlike the mass produced stuff, is there a connection between  procedures with safety and quality EV batteries..... ????

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Absolutely ???? % correct. 

Actually, you can group 2 and 3 together, as all EV. 90% would be from China anyway.

OK... so that stat has been presented to you already numerous times from numerous sources.... 

 

In every single article read the information is universally consistent that ICE vehicles present a greater fire risk than EV's.

 

Numbers quoted are that ICE vehicles are 19 to 100x more likely to be involved in a 'combustable incident' than an EV for the same distance driven. 

 

 

I'm extremely surprised at this stat which clearly highlights many the irrational concerns many of us have with EV's which are completely false and borne of bias. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

12 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

highlighting the significantly greater incidences of fires involving ICE vehicles then Electric Vehicles. 

 

I have not found one piece of information which contradicts this. 

 

 

 

There is a tiny outfit in North Macedonia, Veda or Vedaing I think they are called. They are an outlier and claim that ice vehicles have less fires than EV’s, but the kicker is that their main business is in selling fire  suppression systems for lithium iron battery applications and unsurprisingly they post no details on where they get their results from.

Edited September 4, 2023 by JBChiangRai

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

We will all be riding in EV's in the not too distant future, except me, as I will probably be in a box with no wheels by then. ????

 

My involvement in these threads is putting points forward, I am sure it was much the same for discussion when oil powered rides came along all those years back.

EV's are still in their early stages, but motor production is geared for speed, one hopes the battery assembly can provide 100% safety using that speed, costs saving process.

Have read a few things on BYD regarding battery fires in China, I haven't read anything that I can remember regarding battery fires in high-end cars, with high-end car oil powered engines they are meticulously assembled, unlike the mass produced stuff, is there a connection between  procedures with safety and quality EV batteries..... ????

I'm not sure...  But, I suspect exotics are at greater risk of combustion incidents because of the higher temperatures they are designed to run at. 

 

So, for ICE's - I'd 'expect' it to be exotics driven poorly, knackered old cars, and cars involved in accidents that make up the 'combustion even stats', whereas my bias would mean I'm inclined to suspect mass and cheaply produced EV's from China to present a greater fire risk than say Tesla etc.

 

We'll never have 100% safety with vehicles....  I think much of the debate surrounds the fact that some people are perhaps learning that we never really did have and that seems to be a difficult fact to swallow when married with a negative bias against EV's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

There is a tiny outfit in North Macedonia, Veda or  Vedaing I think they are called. They claim that ice vehicles have less fires than EV’s, but the kicker is that their main business is in selling fire  suppression systems for lithium iron battery applications and unsurprisingly they post no details on where they get their results from.

Thats another facet of the discussion... 

 

When it comes to...  Passengers, first responders, fire fighters, the general public etc... 

- Are 25 EV Fires more deadly / dangerous than 1530 ICE vehicle fires ?

 

[KhunLA]

12 minutes ago, transam said:

We will all be riding in EV's in the not too distant future, except me, as I will probably be in a box with no wheels by then. ????

Why wait till you crap out ... how much fun would that be ...

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

34 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I don't think you read the article properly. Those stats were not for Tesla. The figure for Tesla was given as "one fire for every 328 million kilometres travelled." The figure of 5 fires per 1.6 billion kilometers was for EV's in general.

 

 

Fair enough, confirmation bias got the better part of me.

It would be nice to get some raw statistical data, rather than a news article. 

The age of the vehicle could also play a role. Most EVs are less than 5 years old, where there are many 15 years old ICE vehicles on the road.

[transam]

Just now, richard_smith237 said:

I'm not sure...  But, I suspect exotics are at greater risk of combustion incidents because of the higher temperatures they are designed to run at. 

 

So, for ICE's - I'd 'expect' it to be exotics driven poorly, knackered old cars, and cars involved in accidents that make up the 'combustion even stats', whereas my bias would mean I'm inclined to suspect mass and cheaply produced EV's from China to present a greater fire risk than say Tesla etc.

 

We'll never have 100% safety with vehicles....  I think much of the debate surrounds the fact that some people are perhaps learning that we never really did have and that seems to be a difficult fact to swallow when married with a negative bias against EV's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With petrol cars it is usually fuel line erosion/problem under the bonnet, fuel pump keeps pumping to keep up with the flow, equals fire.

 

Must be near 50 years back, driving on the M4 in London, in my Ford Granada V6, could smell petrol, pulled over, lifted the hood to find the brass hose connector that is pressed into the carb had come out ......????

 

The engine V was full of petrol, I was expecting the worst, it was steaming, luckily I had rag in the boot to try and soke it up before it ignited, I was lucky, but a dodgy moment, indeed. Undid the hose, whacked the fitting back in to get me home... ????

Now if it were an EV battery problem, it would be, just walk away....????

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The age of the vehicle could also play a role. Most EVs are less than 5 years old, where there are many 15 years old ICE vehicles on the road.

A very valid point...   Older cars are perhaps less well maintained and more likely to suffer critical parts failure, this perhaps impacts the stats.

 

I also agree - Raw stats would be great, from which we can draw our own conclusions. 

That said, the stats are already pretty clear even when they are buried in an article. 

[transam]

7 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Why wait till you crap out ... how much fun would that be ...

 

The congregation would hate it, and I would know nothing about it.......................????

[In the jungle]

The issue with EV fires is not the frequency.  The severity of EV fires is the problem.  I give you the Fremantle Highway as Exhibit A.

 

These issues can be dealt with and should be dealt with but right now many manufacturers are focusing on growth rather than safety.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

Just now, In the jungle said:

The issue with EV fires is not the frequency.  The severity of EV fires is the problem.  I give you the Fremantle Highway as Exhibit A.

 

These issues can be dealt with and should be dealt with but right now many manufacturers are focusing on growth rather than safety.

Hence the question...

When it comes to...  Passengers, first responders, fire fighters, the general public etc... 

- Are 25 EV Fires more deadly / dangerous than 1530 ICE vehicle fires ?

 

(25 / 1530 is ratio of EV to ICE fires)

 

Another facet - EV fires start and spread more slowly than ICE fires giving passengers more time to egress... But, they take longer to put out and the hidden dangers of electricity and water present elevated risk to first responders. 

 

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

The issue with EV fires is not the frequency.  The severity of EV fires is the problem.  I give you the Fremantle Highway as Exhibit A.

 

These issues can be dealt with and should be dealt with but right now many manufacturers are focusing on growth rather than safety.

 

 

That’s a good example.

 

It wasn’t caused by an EV fire.

 

After the fire on the car cargo ship off the Dutch coast, the media hastily identified an electric car as the cause. Now it turns out – that this is not true.

Even though the cause of the fire is still unknown, the EV theory no longer holds up after the freighter was inspected. The lower four of the twelve decks are essentially undamaged, and about 1,000 cars, including the 498 electric ones, are in good condition. This is according to the chief of salvage company Royal Boskalis Westminster NV, Peter Berdowski.

According to the head of the salvage company, the four uppermost decks, on which there were no electric cars, are so damaged that it is hard to walk on them and that the vehicles there (again, no EVs!) are literally fused to the ground. The affected carmakers are now investigating how their vehicles can be moved.

 Source electrive.com