Buying a house where land is in Thai name but chanote says foreigner owns the house?

[YaesuBottyLove]

We are looking to buy a house in a moo ban. The agent says that the name on the chanote (ie. the owner of the land) is Thai, but that the chanote also specifies ownership of the house on the land - this being owned by a foreigner. Nothing is owned by a company, apparently.

 

The agent says that on transfer, 3 parties would need to be present ie. the Thai land owner, the foreign house owner and the buyer (NB. buyer is Thai).

 

Is this relatively "safe" and straightforward vs. say, just buying from a Thai who owns both land and house? Thinking I may need to use a lawyer whereas I wouldn't bother if it was just a Thai name on the chanote...

 

Many thanks

[Shop mak]

Before you parting with a large amount, seek legal advice.

A company that has foreigner staff, and been around for years is

 

https://isaanlawyers.com/

 

[FritsSikkink]

If the landowner is Thai, the foreigner doesn't own the house but got a guaranteed rental agreement on it.

As long as the foreigner doesn't mind moving out and give up the rental agreement for a certain amount of money, there is no problem.

[finnsk]

I would be sure about the farrang in the house, do he agree to move out, if you buy the house/land ?

You can maube buy a sack of problems.

 

The land owner can sell the land, they do not need to have any accept from the "houseowner". If there is a registred lease contract to the houseowner (registred at the land office)the new land owner shall accept the lease contract, but, but how is things working out in the real life ?

 

If there is a registred leasecontract you must be sure how to get rid of that, there serious legal advice is needed.

 

Remember the agent is only the landsellers man.

[BenStark]

11 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

If the landowner is Thai, the foreigner doesn't own the house but got a guaranteed rental agreement on it.

Wrong.

 

I own my house, built on land owned by a Thai national.

 

Building license and everything in my personal name, for which the landowner had to give permission.

 

On the land is a mortgage, provided by me, which is registered at the land department, and written on the back of the title deed.

 

If the land ever needs to be sold, which only can be done after the mortgage has been paid to me, the sale has to be announced for 2 weeks at the Orbotor, to ensure that the house is free of any debts.

 

That said, the building is not specified on the chanote, and as far as I'm aware never is.

[FritsSikkink]

5 minutes ago, BenStark said:

Wrong.

 

I own my house, built on land owned by a Thai national.

 

Building license and everything in my personal name, for which the landowner had to give permission.

 

On the land is a mortgage, provided by me, which is registered at the land department, and written on the back of the title deed.

 

If the land ever needs to be sold, which only can be done after the mortgage has been paid to me, the sale has to be announced for 2 weeks at the Orbotor, to ensure that the house is free of any debts.

 

That said, the building is not specified on the chanote, and as far as I'm aware never is.

The building license in your name says nothing about ownership (you already said the landowner had given permission). The mortgage on the land says nothing about the ownership of the house.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by FritsSikkink

[BenStark]

17 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

The building license in your name says nothing about ownership (you already said the landowner had given permission). The mortgage on the land says nothing about the ownership of the house.

 

you're wrong again, but I'm not gonna start a discussion with you, because you are renowned for always claiming to know everything better. Maybe you are Liverpool Lou's brother?

 

The name on the building license, blueprints done by the Orbotor, and building contracts determines the ownership of the building.

 

That the the landowner had to give permission at the orbotor that I could get a building license in my name on her land, is confirmation that she agrees with it.

 

I never said that the mortgage had anything to do with ownership, maybe learn to read, but the land can not be sold as long as the mortgage hasn't been fully paid.

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-real-estate-law/ownership-and-buying-real-estate-in-thailand#4

Foreign house ownership separate from the land

Ownership of a house in Thailand can be transferred separate from the land it stands on. Land and house could have different owners and in a long term lease construction it strongly advised to follow the correct procedure to obtain legal ownership of the house. Transfer of a structure separate from the land must be in writing and registered with the competent authority (i.e. the Land Department's branch or provincial office). The right to own a building upon another man's land always relates to the term an right to use and possess the land (i.e the term of the land lease and/ or the right of superficies term).

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/property/buying-property-in-thailand

 

It is a commonly unknown fact that although a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand, he can own the house or structure built thereon. One only has to apply for a construction permit to build the house in his own name.

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by BenStark

[bunnydrops]

There are subdivisions here in Thailand where a farang can buy the house with a long term renewable lease. Kind of like buying a condo, you don't own the land that it is on.

[Gottfrid]

13 minutes ago, BenStark said:

you're wrong again, but I'm not gonna start a discussion with you, because you are renowned for always claiming to know everything better. Maybe you are Liverpool Lou's brother?

 

The name on the building license, blueprints done by the Orbotor, and building contracts determines the ownership of the building.

 

That the the landowner had to give permission at the orbotor that I could get a building license in my name on her land, is confirmation that she agrees with it.

 

I never said that the mortgage had anything to do with ownership, maybe learn to read, but the land can not be sold as long as the mortgage hasn't been fully paid.

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-real-estate-law/ownership-and-buying-real-estate-in-thailand#4

Foreign house ownership separate from the land

Ownership of a house in Thailand can be transferred separate from the land it stands on. Land and house could have different owners and in a long term lease construction it strongly advised to follow the correct procedure to obtain legal ownership of the house. Transfer of a structure separate from the land must be in writing and registered with the competent authority (i.e. the Land Department's branch or provincial office). The right to own a building upon another man's land always relates to the term an right to use and possess the land (i.e the term of the land lease and/ or the right of superficies term).

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/property/buying-property-in-thailand

 

It is a commonly unknown fact that although a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand, he can own the house or structure built thereon. One only has to apply for a construction permit to build the house in his own name.

 

 

 

100% Correct!

[Shop mak]

OP as you see, opinions differ, and you will get more opinions the next days for sure. So who would you put your money on?

 

Safest bet: a real Lawyer. First consultation is often free of charge. Other members will have recommendations for other lawyers. Find a real registered lawyer, not the many who pretend to be a lawyer.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, BenStark said:

you're wrong again, but I'm not gonna start a discussion with you, because you are renowned for always claiming to know everything better. Maybe you are Liverpool Lou's brother?

 

The name on the building license, blueprints done by the Orbotor, and building contracts determines the ownership of the building.

 

That the the landowner had to give permission at the orbotor that I could get a building license in my name on her land, is confirmation that she agrees with it.

 

I never said that the mortgage had anything to do with ownership, maybe learn to read, but the land can not be sold as long as the mortgage hasn't been fully paid.

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-real-estate-law/ownership-and-buying-real-estate-in-thailand#4

Foreign house ownership separate from the land

Ownership of a house in Thailand can be transferred separate from the land it stands on. Land and house could have different owners and in a long term lease construction it strongly advised to follow the correct procedure to obtain legal ownership of the house. Transfer of a structure separate from the land must be in writing and registered with the competent authority (i.e. the Land Department's branch or provincial office). The right to own a building upon another man's land always relates to the term an right to use and possess the land (i.e the term of the land lease and/ or the right of superficies term).

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/property/buying-property-in-thailand

 

It is a commonly unknown fact that although a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand, he can own the house or structure built thereon. One only has to apply for a construction permit to build the house in his own name.

 

From your own quote:

"The right to own a building upon another man's land always relates to the term an right to use and possess the land (i.e the term of the land lease and/ or the right of superficies term)."

 

You have the right to use and nothing more. You can sell this right.

 

If you demolish the house, the landowner can sue you for damages and will win.

Edited September 5, 2023 by FritsSikkink

[transam]

Talk to a lawyer for the latest info.....????

[Tropicalevo]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

If the landowner is Thai, the foreigner doesn't own the house but got a guaranteed rental agreement on it.

As long as the foreigner doesn't mind moving out and give up the rental agreement for a certain amount of money, there is no problem.

Foreigners can own houses.

I owned mine until I sold it. The company owned the land.

A separate contract was needed.

 

Then process to own it was long and tedious including a couple of visits to the Thai Foreign office in Bangkok.

Mind you, laws change.

Talk a reputable lawyer.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Tropicalevo

[HuaHinNew]

Walk Away

[prakhonchai nick]

Use a good lawyer for sure. One that well understands English as well as Thai

 

My plot of land in Jomtien, Pattaya 36 years ago was bought in my Father -in -Law's name as at that time Thai's married to foreigners were not permitted to own land. For security I was advised to indicate that I had given FiL a loan  to buy the house and a mortgage was duly recorded on the chanote with my name   (7 chanotes in fact!!!)  When we came to sell, the mortgage was officially redeemed permitting FiL to sell the house in his name

[scorecard]

5 hours ago, Shop mak said:

Before you parting with a large amount, seek legal advice.

A company that has foreigner staff, and been around for years is

 

https://isaanlawyers.com/

 

In other words don't listen to the AN armchair lawyers.

[Brick Top]

5 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

If the landowner is Thai, the foreigner doesn't own the house but got a guaranteed rental agreement on it.

As long as the foreigner doesn't mind moving out and give up the rental agreement for a certain amount of money, there is no problem.

Nonsense ! , a foreigner can own the house and therefore be registered on the title as the owner of the actual building with a Thai or a Thai enterty owning the land. 

This is the exact way I own my house in Thailand , the land in a Thai company and the actual house on the land in my name , all clearly registered on the title deed.

[Brick Top]

5 hours ago, BenStark said:

Wrong.

 

I own my house, built on land owned by a Thai national.

 

Building license and everything in my personal name, for which the landowner had to give permission.

 

On the land is a mortgage, provided by me, which is registered at the land department, and written on the back of the title deed.

 

If the land ever needs to be sold, which only can be done after the mortgage has been paid to me, the sale has to be announced for 2 weeks at the Orbotor, to ensure that the house is free of any debts.

 

That said, the building is not specified on the chanote, and as far as I'm aware never is.

Exactly i agree .

Some experts on here have no idea that the land can be in a Thai name and the house on it in a foreigners name , it can not be sold unless the foreigner agrees and signs the transfer

[Brick Top]

5 hours ago, BenStark said:

Wrong.

 

I own my house, built on land owned by a Thai national.

 

Building license and everything in my personal name, for which the landowner had to give permission.

 

On the land is a mortgage, provided by me, which is registered at the land department, and written on the back of the title deed.

 

If the land ever needs to be sold, which only can be done after the mortgage has been paid to me, the sale has to be announced for 2 weeks at the Orbotor, to ensure that the house is free of any debts.

 

That said, the building is not specified on the chanote, and as far as I'm aware never is.

 

5 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

The building license in your name says nothing about ownership (you already said the landowner had given permission). The mortgage on the land says nothing about the ownership of the house.

 

Nope ! , the house on the land can be legally registered in the foreigners name , the land it sits on being in Thai ownership 

[Brick Top]

5 hours ago, BenStark said:

you're wrong again, but I'm not gonna start a discussion with you, because you are renowned for always claiming to know everything better. Maybe you are Liverpool Lou's brother?

 

The name on the building license, blueprints done by the Orbotor, and building contracts determines the ownership of the building.

 

That the the landowner had to give permission at the orbotor that I could get a building license in my name on her land, is confirmation that she agrees with it.

 

I never said that the mortgage had anything to do with ownership, maybe learn to read, but the land can not be sold as long as the mortgage hasn't been fully paid.

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-real-estate-law/ownership-and-buying-real-estate-in-thailand#4

Foreign house ownership separate from the land

Ownership of a house in Thailand can be transferred separate from the land it stands on. Land and house could have different owners and in a long term lease construction it strongly advised to follow the correct procedure to obtain legal ownership of the house. Transfer of a structure separate from the land must be in writing and registered with the competent authority (i.e. the Land Department's branch or provincial office). The right to own a building upon another man's land always relates to the term an right to use and possess the land (i.e the term of the land lease and/ or the right of superficies term).

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/property/buying-property-in-thailand

 

It is a commonly unknown fact that although a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand, he can own the house or structure built thereon. One only has to apply for a construction permit to build the house in his own name.

 

 

 

All correct 

[Brick Top]

5 hours ago, BenStark said:

you're wrong again, but I'm not gonna start a discussion with you, because you are renowned for always claiming to know everything better. Maybe you are Liverpool Lou's brother?

 

The name on the building license, blueprints done by the Orbotor, and building contracts determines the ownership of the building.

 

That the the landowner had to give permission at the orbotor that I could get a building license in my name on her land, is confirmation that she agrees with it.

 

I never said that the mortgage had anything to do with ownership, maybe learn to read, but the land can not be sold as long as the mortgage hasn't been fully paid.

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-real-estate-law/ownership-and-buying-real-estate-in-thailand#4

Foreign house ownership separate from the land

Ownership of a house in Thailand can be transferred separate from the land it stands on. Land and house could have different owners and in a long term lease construction it strongly advised to follow the correct procedure to obtain legal ownership of the house. Transfer of a structure separate from the land must be in writing and registered with the competent authority (i.e. the Land Department's branch or provincial office). The right to own a building upon another man's land always relates to the term an right to use and possess the land (i.e the term of the land lease and/ or the right of superficies term).

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/property/buying-property-in-thailand

 

It is a commonly unknown fact that although a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand, he can own the house or structure built thereon. One only has to apply for a construction permit to build the house in his own name.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

From your own quote:

"The right to own a building upon another man's land always relates to the term an right to use and possess the land (i.e the term of the land lease and/ or the right of superficies term)."

 

You have the right to use and nothing more. You can sell this right.

 

If you demolish the house, the landowner can sue you for damages and will win.

What's he smoking ?

[LukKrueng]

5 hours ago, BenStark said:

The name on the building license, blueprints done by the Orbotor, and building contracts determines the ownership of the building.

You're wrong. The only proof of ownership is a chanot (yes, I know there are lesser types of title deed such as ns3) and your house doesn't have 1, does it? If you decide to sell, could you change the name on the building license? I think the answer is no.

Developers have a way to issue separate chanots to the house and the land. I'm not sure how exactly it works, but I know someone who bought a house in a gated village and had done problems with the separate chanots (one of which was never transferred to her name by the developer).

So the property the op is taking about might be such a case, of a house and land in a gated village.

 

[BenStark]

28 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

You're wrong. The only proof of ownership is a chanot (yes, I know there are lesser types of title deed such as ns3) and your house doesn't have 1, does it? If you decide to sell, could you change the name on the building license? I think the answer is no.

Developers have a way to issue separate chanots to the house and the land. I'm not sure how exactly it works, but I know someone who bought a house in a gated village and had done problems with the separate chanots (one of which was never transferred to her name by the developer).

So the property the op is taking about might be such a case, of a house and land in a gated village.

 

A chanote is a land title deed. never heard about a house chanote. Since you seem to know, maybe you can provide a link to a house chanote.

 

BTW, my house is not in a gated village, neither has it been built by a developer.

 

28 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

If you decide to sell, could you change the name on the building license? I think the answer is no.

If I decide to sell I don't need to change the name on the building license. Does the name on a building license get changed if any house is sold here or anywhere else in the world? The answer is no.

 

As I explained already, if I decide to sell it has to be publicly announced at the Orbotor  for 2 weeks, before it can be sold, and the buyer will get a legal contract that he owns the house.

 

Why I know this, because I have informed myself about that at the land department when I had a buyer of the land and house a few years ago.

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by BenStark

[RocketDog]

32 minutes ago, Brick Top said:

 

What's he smoking ?

Just another victim of CUD I'm afraid. ????

[LukKrueng]

12 minutes ago, BenStark said:

A chanote is a land title deed. never heard about a house chanote. Since you seem to know, maybe you can provide a link to a house chanote.

 

BTW, my house is not in a gated village, neither has it been built by a developer.

 

If I decide to sell I don't need to change the name on the building license. Does the name on a building license get changed if any house is sold here or anywhere else in the world? The answer is no.

 

As I explained already, if I decide to sell it has to be publicly announced at the Orbotor  for 2 weeks, before it can be sold, and the buyer will get a legal contract that he owns the house.

 

Why I know this, because I have informed myself about that at the land department when I had a buyer of the land and house a few years ago.

 

 

 

You contradicted yourself in your reply. True, there is no separate chanot for the house in most cases and the land department doesn't care what's on the land. The only body in Thailand that keeps records of ownership is the land department, so apart from condo units (and the rare cases of house chanots) - you cannot truly own a house in Thailand unless you own the land itself.

When buying a plot of land or a condo unit, it's not the legal contract that "gives" you ownership or proof of, is the record at the land office.

As for the notice at the o.b.t - that might be the case because of the mortgage, but that's not the usual practice when selling\buying property in Thailand. The usual way is seller and buyer go together to the land office, pay the transfer fee and on the spot the buyer's name is added to the chanot and the buyer goes out of the office with the chanot.

[BenStark]

6 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

True, there is no separate chanot for the house in most cases

Talk about contradicting oneself

 

6 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

and the rare cases of house chanots)

There are no "rare" case of house chanotes, there are NONE. I suggest you stop digging when you are in a hole.

 

Chanote is a land title deed, not a build title deed

 

6 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

the land department doesn't care what's on the land.

Oh yes they do, and they were very well informed about the existence of MY house on that piece of land, because it increases the official value on which taxes have to be paid.

 

6 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

As for the notice at the o.b.t - that might be the case because of the mortgage, but that's not the usual practice when selling\buying property in Thailand.

Nothing to do with the mortgage, since that one is registered on the back of the chanote, and if I declare it has been paid, that is where it ends for the land department.

 

The announcement at the Orbotor, which has nothing to do with the land department, is because the house is OWNED by a foreigner, and can be transferred to a FOREIGNER.

 

 

[The Theory]

11 hours ago, YaesuBottyLove said:

We are looking to buy a house in a moo ban. The agent says that the name on the chanote (ie. the owner of the land) is Thai

Does the land owner owns other lots in the mooban ? 

[In the jungle]

You said the buyer is Thai.  Buy another house and avoid this complication.

[MangoKorat]

13 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

The building license in your name says nothing about ownership (you already said the landowner had given permission). The mortgage on the land says nothing about the ownership of the house.

 

Sorry but as others have said, you are wrong.  It is perfectly legal for a foreigner to own the 'bricks amd mortar' of a house without owning the land that the house sits on. However, the foreigner must have ownership documents and their tenure should be registered on the rear of the land's Chanotte to be able to be considered as the legal owner and therefore sell the house.

 

There is no problem with buying this property but if the house has a different owner to the land, both owners will have to agree to the sale and there will be two seperate transactions. If the house owner is not present or does not agree to the sale - there can be a problem.

 

To remain on the land the house owner must have a lease to use the land - however, many leases are not secure and courts often grant possession to the land owner. Leases often contain a 'get out clause'. If on the other hand, the house owner has a properly registered Usufruct agreement on the land. that is secure until he/she dies.

 

On several occasions I've seen people state that Usufructs are not secure. I've looked at 2 cases where the Usufruct was challenged and neither were registered on the Chanotte. The law is the law and a Usufruct is a legally recognised agreement in Thailand. I doubt any court would cancel such an agreement and if it did, a decent lawyer would find it fairly easy to overturn that decision in a higher court.

Edited September 5, 2023 by MangoKorat

[Celsius]

Threads like this are always fantastically hilarious.