Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[StayinThailand2much]

3 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

Don't hold your breath.

Don't get it. There must be a reason why this thread has 43 pages (and there are numerous media posts elsewhere). Don't you think that there will be more news about this next year?

Edited September 24, 2023 by StayinThailand2much

[vukovar77]

I have tax number as an expat here for about 8 years.Every year they ask to provide more and more documents and data.I am from EU.This year was pretty tough (for 2022)and RD check out all pension listings per month for 2022 to check out did I pay and how much taxes.They ask for yearly tax report in my home country.They ask me to show them my bank accounts in Thai banks as well.I am on retirement visa and I never had any bussiness here or rental income as well.I have Thai wife. Had to go to RD 3 times to provide all data and documents .We live simple life and abide Thai laws which demands for expats with permanent residence to have a tax number.From my experience and from my point of view it is not easy for expats do deal with this all even my income(state pension) is pretty low  comparing with most of expats live here (from my knowledge).If they do not change a new rules, next year will be very challenging for us permanents residents,from my point of view.

Edited September 24, 2023 by vukovar77

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, vukovar77 said:

I have tax number as an expat here for about 8 years.Every year they ask po provide more and more documents and data.I am from EU.This year was pretty tough (for 2022)and RD check out all pension listings per month for 2022 to check out did I pay and how much taxes.They ask for yearly tax report in my home country.They ask me to show them my bank accounts in Thai banks as well.I am on retirement visa and I never had any bussiness here or rental income as well.I have Thai wife. Had to go to RD 3 times to provide all data and documents .We live simple life and abide Thai laws which demands for expats with permanent residence to have a tax number.From my experience and from my point of view it is not easy for expats do deal with this all even my income(state pension) is pretty low  comparing with most of expats live here (from my knowledge).If they do not change a new rules, next year will be very challenging for us permanents residents,from my point of view.

Why did you get a tax number in first place? Pay lower tax here, and save deduct tax paid home? 

[vukovar77]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

Why did you get a tax number in first place? Pay lower tax here, and save deduct tax paid home? 

Well,I thought it is mandatory for us to live here more than 180 days per year even before this changes.I met many expats on retirement visa in RD.

Maybe I should avoid that like many other expats,but in the near future it seems that all expats should have tax number,from my point of view.

I payed all taxes in my country like any other residents.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:10 PM, Lorry said:

If you are over 65, and IF they grant you the same allowance as Thais, 

there is another allowance of 190,000. That would result in about 40k tax.

There even is an allowance of 100,000 for pensions, but they will probably say "only Thai pensions"

 

BTW it's 780K, not 980K

Yep lets hope so - and additional 190K (340K tax exempt) changes it quite a bit. 

Most pensions will be exmept - all the county's DTA I looked at excluded pensions. 

Thanks for letting me know about the typo.

[El Matador]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

But if you're at, or approaching the $80,000 category (i.e, Thai taxes at the 21.2% rate) -- go get the LTR Wealthy Pensioner visa. This will protect your foreign income from Thai taxes, confirmed by the latest reports.

Maybe they will extend that to other kinds of visa (Thai Elite, Investor, Retirement). Otherwise the fall will be tremendous next year. Wait and see...

[Hummin]

1 minute ago, vukovar77 said:

Well,I thought it is mandatory for us to live here more than 180 days per year even before this changes.I met many expats on retirement visa in RD.

Maybe I should avoid that like many other expats,but in the near future it seems that all expats should have tax number,from my point of view.

I payed all taxes in my country like any other residents.

If I pay taxes in Thailand, I will deduct my paid taxes in my home country, and that's why other expats got their tax numbers, to pay less tax. 

 

Most of the European countries have that tax deal. 

 

 

[redwood1]

8 minutes ago, vukovar77 said:

Well,I thought it is mandatory for us to live here more than 180 days per year even before this changes.I met many expats on retirement visa in RD.

Maybe I should avoid that like many other expats,but in the near future it seems that all expats should have tax number,from my point of view.

I payed all taxes in my country like any other residents.

Hey if you like your tax number your welcome to it...But loads of the rest of us have never had one and never plan to get one because we dont have a business or work here.....

 

Give all retired farangs full medical coverage for the rest of our lives with a 30 baht co-pay like the Thais and I will think about it...

[ukrules]

6 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

For an individual who was resident in the UK for one or more of the preceding three tax years the limit is 15 days or

Quite right, I've been in the UK for about 5 days in total over the last 15 years, if you're determined you can easily break all ties to the UK.

[hotandsticky]

1 hour ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Don't get it. There must be a reason why this thread has 43 pages (and there are numerous media posts elsewhere). Don't you think that there will be more news about this next year?

 

Personally, no.

 

But, I could very easily be wrong and my current optimism could be driven by my belief that the Thai authorities could not organise a p!ss up in a brothel 

 

Scaremongering and fantasy, is my view, fuelling the paranoia of expats with too much time on their hands so they look for demons where not exist.

 

I am not wasting a minute of my time on the subject, nor will I lose a second of sleep over it.

 

They can do what they like and I will respond accordingly. Let me day this - not one Satang of my money will be paid in tax, on my UK income, to the Thailand authorities.

 

I can't even get a pink card (don't want one now) so I am buggered if I am going to accept a tax number.

 

If the ultimate outcome is that I feel forced out of Thailand, so be it.

Edited September 24, 2023 by hotandsticky

[Aldo123]

40 minutes ago, vukovar77 said:

I have tax number as an expat here for about 8 years.Every year they ask to provide more and more documents and data.I am from EU.This year was pretty tough (for 2022)and RD check out all pension listings per month for 2022 to check out did I pay and how much taxes.They ask for yearly tax report in my home country.They ask me to show them my bank accounts in Thai banks as well.I am on retirement visa and I never had any bussiness here or rental income as well.I have Thai wife. Had to go to RD 3 times to provide all data and documents .We live simple life and abide Thai laws which demands for expats with permanent residence to have a tax number.From my experience and from my point of view it is not easy for expats do deal with this all even my income(state pension) is pretty low  comparing with most of expats live here (from my knowledge).If they do not change a new rules, next year will be very challenging for us permanents residents,from my point of view.

This is why (and always has been why) it's better not to get Permanent Residence. It might make coming and going a bit easier, and you can use your THB account to buy an apartment/condo. But PR also meant Thai income tax. The yearly retirement and/or marriage visa was always the better choice. A hassle, but a better choice. Now even that seems set to change. 

[Aldo123]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

But if you're at, or approaching the $80,000 category (i.e, Thai taxes at the 21.2% rate) -- go get the LTR Wealthy Pensioner visa. This will protect your foreign income from Thai taxes, confirmed by the latest reports.

Are you sure that LTR 5 year+ retirement visa avoids Thai income tax? I thought it was a requirement, which kind of put me off, just like applying for PR for same reason.

[transam]

3 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

Personally, no.

 

But, I could very easily be wrong and my current optimism could be driven by my belief that the Thai authorities could not organise a p!ss up in a brothel 

 

Scaremongering and fantasy, is my view, fuelling the paranoia of expats with too much time on their hands so they look for demons where not exist.

 

I am not wasting a minute of my time on the subject, nor will I lose a second of sleep over it.

 

They can do what they like and I will respond accordingly. Let me day this - not one Satang of my money will be paid in tax, on my UK income, to the Thailand authorities.

 

I can't even get a pink card (don't want one now) so I am buggered if I am going to accept a tax number.

 

If the ultimate outcome is that I feel forced out of Thailand, so be it.

I totally agree..............????

 

(It's p_ss up in a brewery).....????

[hotandsticky]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

I totally agree..............????

 

(It's p_ss up in a brewery).....????

LOL????.....I like to mix up my sayings..... I could have said orgy in a brewery........

[TroubleandGrumpy]

I am even more convinced that this could be a 'game changer' after just catching up on the latest comments, especially the problems the Expat has, who is already dealing with the RD, and who only has a pension. 

 

I dont mind accepting that I am a Thai tax resident and therefore liable to taxes, because based on my calculations the taxes I pay in Australia will be more than applicable in Thailand.

 

But, the probability I will need for a PIN in order to do an annual extension, and the RD Dept is going to manage this 'new' situation, is probably going to be a massive problem for me/us living in Thailand.  I have never put into my 'planning' that I will have to be dealing with the Thai RD and/or Immigration regarding personal taxation.  And as many have said - just because I have no tax liability does not mean that the Thai RD will accept that. 

 

If this goes forward and Expats are taxed based on the money they bring into Thailand (aside from Govt Pensions which I believe will be OK), and the only way to avoid that tax is to 'prove' to the Thai RD that it has already been taxed in Australia - then we will not be living in Thailand. Added to that is the concern that every annual extension is going to require a PIN be rpovided plus proof of an annual tax return.

  

If this goes ahead as it does appear that it will (there has been no Thai Govt statement saying it will not tax non-working Expats) then we will be leaving Thailand and taking all our money here.  From now, I will only be bringing into Thailand the absolute minimum needed, which means my plans to buy a new car and house in the next few years is gone.

 

I will be watching closely how this pans out until June 2024 - which is when I would be classified as a Tax Resident for the tax year 2024.  Maybe, just maybe, I will do a 'trial run' in early 2025 to see how it goes. But if by June it is clear that Expats are expected to pay income taxes on any incoming transfers (besides Govt Pensions), and I will have to prove tax has already been paid on every transfer, and the ability to provide proof against that claim by RD will be as expected (ridiculous and impossible like the non-Thai health insurance for an O-A Visa), then we are 'OUT OF HERE'. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

27 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Hey if you like your tax number your welcome to it...But loads of the rest of us have never had one and never plan to get one because we dont have a business or work here.....

 

Give all retired farangs full medical coverage for the rest of our lives with a 30 baht co-pay like the Thais and I will think about it...

AND gives us legal rights, no dual-pricing, and not require us to report every 3 months and extend our stay in the KIngdom every 12 months - then I will also think about it.  If they treat me like they do all Thai citizens, including the majority who pay zero income tax, then I will be happy to pay income tax in Thailand (maybe). 

[Aldo123]

Let's hope the Thai RD impose only a minimum tax on foreign retirees. Portugal used to be among the countries that didn't tax foreign income of expat retirees. They changed it a couple of years ago, but impose only a 10% flat rate for foreign-sourced income. That could be easier and certainly more acceptable than 25-35% which Thailand presently charges. 

[Misty]

19 minutes ago, Aldo123 said:

Are you sure that LTR 5 year+ retirement visa avoids Thai income tax? I thought it was a requirement, which kind of put me off, just like applying for PR for same reason.

It doesn't avoid Thai income tax on all income.  LTR visa tax benefits include exclusion from Thai tax on foreign source income only.  But you're still taxed on local source income, including work, local dividends & interest.

[John Drake]

30 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

Scaremongering and fantasy, is my view, fuelling the paranoia of expats with too much time on their hands so they look for demons where not exist.

Srettha apparently says "yes" to everything, and then needs to walk it back as soon as the calamity becomes obvious. It will happen with this, too. 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Let me correct it with 2023 data at current exchange rate:

Thanx, Yumthai.

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

Thanks for the effort Jim - I hope it turns out a LOT more simple than that. ATB

Please click on the following link to the RD website which, I think, provides the info you're after:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/AEC/AseanTax-Thailand.pdf

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by OJAS

[JimTripper]

1 hour ago, vukovar77 said:

Well,I thought it is mandatory for us to live here more than 180 days per year even before this changes.I met many expats on retirement visa in RD.

Maybe I should avoid that like many other expats,but in the near future it seems that all expats should have tax number,from my point of view.

I payed all taxes in my country like any other residents.

Don’t do anything you don’t have to is my opinion. I even avoided getting a Thai bank account (for now - O-A Visa).

 

Most requirements are there for the three big T’s: Trap, Tax & Track.

Edited September 24, 2023 by JimTripper

[OJAS]

25 minutes ago, Aldo123 said:

Let's hope the Thai RD impose only a minimum tax on foreign retirees.

Ha-ha! Consistent with the overall track record on dual pricing for access to national parks, etc here in LOS, it would not surprise me in the slightest if we were, in fact, taxed at a special foreigner rate which was 10 times greater than that levied on the locals!

 

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, John Drake said:

I think this tax "reform" will be reversed. Look how much of what Srettha promised and said has been reversed. Even this morning he denied the Thaksin as advisor proposal. 

I sincerely hope you're right, John. When I delve even more into the potential situation regarding the State Pension for us Brits, matters get even more absurd. To avoid being taxed twice it would appear that we shall need to complete a complex 6-page form:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1119722/Double_Taxation_Treaty_Relief_Form_DT-Individual.pdf

 

And no doubt the RD will insist on a certified Thai translation of the bit they'll need to complete, before doing the necessary in Thai, of course. As a result, HMRC back in the UK (the British IRS) will probably then require a certified English translation of what the RD have said. When taken with employing accountants to sort this bureaucratic mess out, we could be talking about a total cost which would be way in excess of the 7,000 THB for which, by my reckoning, I would personally be liable to double taxation!

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by OJAS

[Thingamabob]

It may be entirely wrong but I was told by a Thai lawyer some years ago that pensions were not taxed in Thailand. 

[stat]

22 hours ago, beammeup said:

Its not up to the banks. like every country its up to you to declare what you have earned and what you owe. Why bis this so freaking complicated. just pay tax on what you remitt into thailand.

Not correct, in  a lot of countries Germany and Thailand included, you are "taxed" right away by your bank  on interest and capital gains before the money even reaches your account. You can then have the amount checked at year end by the tax authorities.

Edited September 24, 2023 by stat

[stat]

46 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

It may be entirely wrong but I was told by a Thai lawyer some years ago that pensions were not taxed in Thailand. 

In case of Germany correct with some exceptions.

[DudleySquat]

Who is going to drop a dime to Thailand? Wise? Or our bank here? 

[Somjot]

 

 

4 hours ago, vukovar77 said:

I have tax number as an expat here for about 8 years.Every year they ask to provide more and more documents and data.I am from EU.This year was pretty tough (for 2022)and RD check out all pension listings per month for 2022 to check out did I pay and how much taxes.They ask for yearly tax report in my home country.They ask me to show them my bank accounts in Thai banks as well.I am on retirement visa and I never had any bussiness here or rental income as well.I have Thai wife. Had to go to RD 3 times to provide all data and documents .We live simple life and abide Thai laws which demands for expats with permanent residence to have a tax number.From my experience and from my point of view it is not easy for expats do deal with this all even my income(state pension) is pretty low  comparing with most of expats live here (from my knowledge).If they do not change a new rules, next year will be very challenging for us permanents residents,from my point of view.

Your post is a bit confusing. You write that you are on a retirement visa and later describe yourself as a permanent resident.

Residing in Thailand permanently does not make you a permanent resident.

Visa based on marriage / retirement, which has to be renewed every year where you have to show many different documents, retirement fees and/or bank statement about 800 K and so on and is a completely different thing than a permanent residency.

The latter is very difficult to get, takes many years where you and your background are checked and costs a lot of money until finally the minister for foreign affairs signs his is OK. Per year only 100 people from one nationality can apply.

 

3 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

This is why (and always has been why) it's better not to get Permanent Residence. It might make coming and going a bit easier, and you can use your THB account to buy an apartment/condo. But PR also meant Thai income tax. The yearly retirement and/or marriage visa was always the better choice. A hassle, but a better choice. Now even that seems set to change. 

I disagree with you. Besides the points you mentioned, not having to wire your money from your home country, if you want to buy a condo and easy coming and going you can also get the blue TABIEN BAAN and not only the yellow one.

 

You can stay as long as you want, no saying hello every 90 days and you only have to apply for a re-entry permit, if you intend to leave the country.

 

Retirement visa seems to be quite easy, but a friend of mine is here on marriage visa and he has always a bad mood weeks before he has to renew it, as they always find something new, some document, some proof, they will ask him for.

 

Basically, you have to ask every year for permission to stay for another year and you never know when that one law comes, may it be a minimum income higher than yours, may it be some health insurance, which you cannot get, because of your health status or only a little overweight and BOOM! Your life plan goes down the toilet.

 

Not with the permanent residency.

 

And by the way, when those repatriation flights to Thailand started somewhat in July 2020, after COVID had led to a complete shutdown all over the world, I could have easily been on the first flight.

 

As this did not match with my business plans, I took the second on the 20th of August 2020, while all those retirement and marriage visa guys had to stay in their countries not knowing when they could ever get back to their homes.

 

 

Although I have to admit those 15 days of quarantine locked in a room without a balcony and welded windows, which could not be opened were quite an ordeal.

 

After seven days I started talking to my suitcase.

 

On the tenth day, early afternoon, my suitcase answered.

 

But that is another story.

[Dogmatix]

10 hours ago, Felt 35 said:

Anyone who know if the new tax regulations also will include inheritance from a Foreigner to Thai spouse and how shall it eventually be controlled if its savings and a gift / inheritance? ????

Felt 

Inheritance tax in Thailand is exempted between spouses and otherwise only payable over l million baht.  In the UK it is also generally exempted but only for foreign spouses, if the have lived in the UK and have an NHS number.