Ground Earthing and an RCBO

[Muhendis]

Today a lady in our village died. She was in her late seventies but still very fit and active.

Cause of death was electrocution.

She was in her outside kitchen in which has an earth/soil floor damp from the recent rains. Using a plastic electric jug kettle to heat some water, she was in the habit of putting her fingers into the water to see if it was warm enough. Today that stupidity cost her life.

There was a fault in the electric element that made the water live. Current passed from her fingers and through her bare feet to ground.

There was undoubtedly no earth at the power outlet.

As with nearly all village houses, there is no ELCB.

A sad and totally avoidable incident which could so easily have been avoided with a little more knowledge of how a house should be wired.

 

[cooked]

It took me two years to find out that someone had swapped the wire colours halfway along the cable run. 

[TimeMachine]

Government should mandate and pay for rcbo everywhere possible. But then again ... A few extra deaths never hurt society too badly. I've installed and recommend them to those people I come across who have children or elderly people living there when the topic arises. It's just people don't value life as much as you'd think. I've absorbed a couple 240v touches and lived to tell the tale. Lucky me.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

It seems to me lots of people are just cheap Charlies and are not willing to spend a little more money to have a properly grounded cabling.

And sometimes it's difficult to find those cables. I.e. I ordered my cables with ground on Lazada. Because HomePro has lots of cables, all only with two wires and no earth. Sad. 

[OneMoreFarang]

17 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Government should mandate and pay for rcbo everywhere possible. But then again ... A few extra deaths never hurt society too badly. I've installed and recommend them to those people I come across who have children or elderly people living there when the topic arises. It's just people don't value life as much as you'd think. I've absorbed a couple 240v touches and lived to tell the tale. Lucky me.

Often this would require completely new cabling all over the house. And when the cables are in the walls then that is a major job.

 

Why should the government/taxpayer pay for RCBOs? If people are not willing to spend a few hundred THB to protect their life, then there is something seriously wrong with those people. 

[Muhendis]

Just now, OneMoreFarang said:

Often this would require completely new cabling all over the house. And when the cables are in the walls then that is a major job.

 

Why should the government/taxpayer pay for RCBOs? If people are not willing to spend a few hundred THB to protect their life, then there is something seriously wrong with those people. 

In my opinion the government should mandate the certification of electrical contractors and make it illegal to do electrical work without using a qualified and certified contractor.

Certificates are required for tree fellers so why not for other trades too?

[OneMoreFarang]

1 minute ago, Muhendis said:

In my opinion the government should mandate the certification of electrical contractors and make it illegal to do electrical work without using a qualified and certified contractor.

Certificates are required for tree fellers so why not for other trades too?

And certifications for people who repair vehicles, etc.

But will it make a difference?

As far as I know anybody who drives a car or rides a motorcycle in Thailand needs a license. And to get that license they need to show that they know the rules and can drive. And? There are still millions of ignorant drivers on the streets, and many of them don't have a license. Is anybody enforcing the laws?

[lopburi3]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems to me lots of people are just cheap Charlies and are not willing to spend a little more money to have a properly grounded cabling.

And sometimes it's difficult to find those cables. I.e. I ordered my cables with ground on Lazada. Because HomePro has lots of cables, all only with two wires and no earth. Sad. 

I never had issues obtaining 3 conductor home wire from HomePro in the last several decades.  

https://www.homepro.co.th/c/ELT0309?et_feature13=3-CORE&pmin=&pmax=&cst=0&q=VAF-GRD+Electric+Wires+&page=1&s=12&size=100#plist

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

35 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Government should mandate and pay for rcbo everywhere possible. But then again ... A few extra deaths never hurt society too badly. I've installed and recommend them to those people I come across who have children or elderly people living there when the topic arises. It's just people don't value life as much as you'd think. I've absorbed a couple 240v touches and lived to tell the tale. Lucky me.

 

 

RCBO is mandated in all new builds.  We design & build moo baan and have to fit them, we fit Schneider.

[TimeMachine]

49 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Often this would require completely new cabling all over the house. And when the cables are in the walls then that is a major job.

 

Why should the government/taxpayer pay for RCBOs? If people are not willing to spend a few hundred THB to protect their life, then there is something seriously wrong with those people. 

Why would new cabling be needed around the house? Just rewiring of switchboard .

 

Can appreciate the why should government pay for people mindset. Although I'm from Australia, the lucky country, where government gives rebates for many things. Healthcare, bills, solar cells, water heaters. Money back into the community. Jobs created all that sort of stuff. 

 

Government would be saving lives, creating jobs and supporting retail. Don't just think of it as scummy people getting something for nothing. Taxes are paid. 

[quake]

16 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Why would new cabling be needed around the house? Just rewiring of switchboard .

Most wiring is two core only L/N

No earth. 

That's why.

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by quake

[lopburi3]

12 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Why would new cabling be needed around the house? Just rewiring of switchboard .

The thread is about ground and RCBO usage.  In almost all cases only two wires are used - an additional ground wire or replacement with 3 conductor cable is required for a grounded system.  Which is why the whole house Safe-t-cut become so popular here some 45 years ago.

[brianthainess]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Often this would require completely new cabling all over the house. And when the cables are in the walls then that is a major job.

 

Why should the government/taxpayer pay for RCBOs? If people are not willing to spend a few hundred THB to protect their life, then there is something seriously wrong with those people. 

An RCD can be retro fitted to most power boards, without rewiring the whole house, I got one fitted at my wife's shop.  

[lopburi3]

6 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

An RCD can be retro fitted to most power boards, without rewiring the whole house, I got one fitted at my wife's shop.  

Indeed - and it is a life saver and has a long history of usage here.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, lopburi3 said:

I never had issues obtaining 3 conductor home wire from HomePro in the last several decades.  

https://www.homepro.co.th/c/ELT0309?et_feature13=3-CORE&pmin=&pmax=&cst=0&q=VAF-GRD+Electric+Wires+&page=1&s=12&size=100#plist

 

 

Ok, I should have clarified that: In HomePro Phloen Chit they have many cables with two wires, but not even one with 3 wires (including earth). 

[OneMoreFarang]

43 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Why would new cabling be needed around the house? Just rewiring of switchboard .

In many houses and condominiums in Thailand they have outlets without earth connection.

[lopburi3]

2 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Ok, I should have clarified that: In HomePro Phloen Chit they have many cables with two wires, but not even one with 3 wires (including earth). 

Did you ask?  When I bought always had to ask and then they found - but this was before grounding was normal for new constructions.

[brianthainess]

1 minute ago, lopburi3 said:

Indeed - and it is a life saver and has a long history of usage here.

My wife literally just called and told me "No hab electic tilak"

A passing friend came and re-set the RCD for her, while I was on the phone. true. Why it tripped I have no Idea, last time it was full of those tiny ants.  

[OneMoreFarang]

16 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

An RCD can be retro fitted to most power boards, without rewiring the whole house, I got one fitted at my wife's shop.  

Sure, you can fit it.

But will it work efficiently without earth wiring to the outlets?

[lopburi3]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

In many houses and condominiums in Thailand they have outlets without earth connection.

But RCBO does not require ground to operate and save lives.

[OneMoreFarang]

Just now, lopburi3 said:

But RCBO does not require ground to operate and save lives.

But maybe there is a good reason that ground is installed by professionals...

[OneMoreFarang]

2 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

My wife literally just called and told me "No hab electic tilak"

A passing friend came and re-set the RCD for her, while I was on the phone. true. Why it tripped I have no Idea, last time it was full of those tiny ants.  

No, problem, it just happened, not need to think about why it tripped... 

[OneMoreFarang]

4 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Did you ask?  When I bought always had to ask and then they found - but this was before grounding was normal for new constructions.

I know where their cable section is and I didn't ask for any specific cable because my experience with asking them anything specific is not exactly good.

Maybe they know where in the building is the electric department or the plumbing area, but that's about as much as we can hope for - at least IMHO.

[brianthainess]

Just now, OneMoreFarang said:

Sure, you can fit it.

But will it work efficiently without earth wiring to the outlets?

Yes mine does, even with the power turned off, if you touch the positive and negative together it trips, Scared the bejivers out of me one time while doing some wiring, I had to triple check my power was off. Any power leakage through you to ground should trip it. 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

Yes mine does, even with the power turned off, if you touch the positive and negative together it trips, Scared the bejivers out of me one time while doing some wiring, I had to triple check my power was off. Any power leakage through you to ground should trip it. 

You have no earthing in your house......?   

[Pumpuynarak]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Often this would require completely new cabling all over the house. And when the cables are in the walls then that is a major job.

 

Why should the government/taxpayer pay for RCBOs? If people are not willing to spend a few hundred THB to protect their life, then there is something seriously wrong with those people. 

But THESE PEOPLE as you kindly put it are not ALL electricians and have little or no knowledge of how a house should be wired me included. I bought a new house in 2007 from a very large local builder and trusted that they would do the job properly, i knew no different after living in Thailand for 3 months.

 

Thats why in my home country the UK has proper regulations to ensure that new build houses are built to the required standard to protect the inhabitants from such things as electrocution.

 

If Thailand's does'nt have the required regulations and ENFORCE them then THEY should accept responsibility for any such deaths imo

 

Just sayin like lol

 

PS - Having lived here for 17 years now i am fully aware of Thailands shortcomings but still get surprised EVERY DAY.

[brianthainess]

All cable installation is 3 different colored separate cables,  through yellow conduit except to lights only two.

[brianthainess]

1 minute ago, transam said:

You have no earthing in your house......?   

Yes every power socket is earthed.

[lopburi3]

6 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

But maybe there is a good reason that ground is installed by professionals...

They complement each other - RCBO will almost always save your life as trips at only 30ma difference between load and neutral (alternate path to ground).  Ground will trip circuit breaker at 16/32 amps or whatever after a time lapse.  Good for fire protection but not so great for human life.  But important shock protection also as it will remove the danger before anyone touches live frame/cabinet or whatever.

[TimeMachine]

46 minutes ago, quake said:

Most wiring is two core only L/N

No earth. 

That's why.

 

 

 

You don't need earth for rcbo. That's what's so fantastic and why it's so important when there is no earthing.