24 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

 

Ultimately, politicians and their citizens do move on from attrocities. Yes.  

 

It might sound callous, unfeeling, inhuman.  But that is what happens in the political world.  Its the fate of millions of people which is being decided by politicians.

 

Is that how the political world works ?

 

I think the pro-israeli guys need to stop listing details of gruesome attrocities in every post.  We all agree hamas committed attrocities.  

 

Why keep writing about rape, beheading babies, removing fetus's over and over and over ?  A few times, OK, but in almost every post?

 

Up to you.

 

• •  2.3k

Posted 6 hours ago

  6 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

Here we go again another classic from Bud Costello.

So no coverage of the 40 beheaded baby funerals then?

5 hours ago, James105 said:

 

Any Israelis still alive who were responsible for whatever happened in 1895 then I absolutely agree they should apologise.   If they are all dead then the people alive today are not any more responsible than I am for whatever my great, great, great grandparents did during that period.   

 

 

 

 

Interesting.  I think its not so cut and dry.  

 

You focus on an individuals responsibility.  Yes, you are not responsible for what your grandfather did.  Although what if your familes wealth came from slave owning ?

 

But at the state/nation level its different.  If a state did 'bad' things and that resulted in great wealth for its citizens later on, then I think the state can be held accountable.  The state endures over time, even if individuals do not.

 

Many examples of states apologizing and making reparations. In UK currently, a kenya massacre is one such example.

 

 

5 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

 

Your wrong deejai33 its about Israel at war now as the Thread title says not what happened a 100 years ago.

The current war did not happen in a vacuum.  As UN leader said.

 

Many posts here refer to causes and both sides historical grievances.  

 

 

2 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

Interesting.  I think its not so cut and dry.  

 

You focus on an individuals responsibility.  Yes, you are not responsible for what your grandfather did.

 

But at the state/nation level its different.  If a state did 'bad' things and that resulted in great wealth for its citizens later on, then I think the state can be held accountable.  The state endures over time, even if individuals do not.

 

Many examples of states apologizing and making reparations. In UK currently, a kenya massacre is one such example.

 

 

What's King Charles's visit to Kenya got to do with this thread deejai33 the Topic is "Israel is at war" just to remind you.

2 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

The current war did not happen in a vacuum.  As UN leader said.

 

Many posts here refer to causes and both sides historical grievances.  

 

 

No most of us are trying to remain on topic but others Can't seem to grasp what the topic is such as 1 showing a Toyota in a coal mine.

33 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

 

Ultimately, politicians and their citizens do move on from attrocities. Yes.  

 

It might sound callous, unfeeling, inhuman.  But that is what happens in the political world.  Its the fate of millions of people which is being decided by politicians.

 

Is that how the political world works ?

 

I think the pro-israeli guys need to stop listing details of gruesome attrocities in every post.  We all agree hamas committed attrocities.  

 

Why keep writing about rape, beheading babies, removing fetus's over and over and over ?  A few times, OK, but in almost every post?

 

Up to you.

 

Well, it may have something to do with all the hamas apologists going on and on and often lying about Irael killing babies. 

 

Think that might have something to do with it?

6 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   No one has ever said that you cannot criticise Israel and you wont be called anti sematic for voicing an opinion about Israel  , some posters make anti semetic remarks and then deny they are anti semetic and it seems to me that there are more anti semetic denials than there are accusations

   Some posters just keep going on about them being unable to criticise Israel  , just after their tenth post of the day being critical of Israel .

    Like "Israel are Nazi fascist apartheid terrorists who want to rule the World and if you say that Netanyahu  isn't the Messiah, they call you an anti  semite" , "Those Jews control the media and the Banks and Hollywood and if you you dont like Israel's entry into the Eurovision song contest , they call you and anti semite "

Wow.  I didn't see that posted.

 

Probably mods removed it as it sounds rather crazy and anti-semetic.

 

I've not seen anti-semetic posts here.

5 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

What's King Charles's visit to Kenya got to do with this thread deejai33 the Topic is "Israel is at war" just to remind you.

Related to discussion about root cause of the conflict.

 

Colonists have apoligized in recent years about what happened in the past as a way to improve relations and move on.

2 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

Related to discussion about root cause of the conflict.

Nothing to do with this thread deejai, How is it a cause of Hamas entering Israel on 7th Oct.

 

23 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

 

More details of how unborn babies are removed from mothers.

 

As I've posted elsewhere, we all agree this is wrong.  No need to mention it in every post you make.

 

Regards your point.  The event you describe in detail, happened in Israel.  I would think Israel would be willing for ICC investigators to see the scene.  Clearly a potential war crime.  But ICC has not been allowed into israel as far as I can tell.  See the ICC web site for details.  Not allowed into gaza either  (by israel?)

 

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-khan-kc-cairo-situation-state-palestine-and-israel

Why should Israel care about what the ICC thinks? How will it benefit them? Israel would have to commit significant resources to facilitate and ICC investigation, and even if/when found guilty, what is the ICC going to do to hamas? Nothing. 

 

It is a waste of Israels time a resources. 

5 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

Related to discussion about root cause of the conflict.

 

Colonists have apoligized in recent years about what happened in the past as a way to improve relations and move on.

 

Don't recall any Islamic countries doing that, FREE CONSTANTINOPLE !

6 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

Related to discussion about root cause of the conflict.

 

Colonists have apoligized in recent years about what happened in the past as a way to improve relations and move on.

So have relations improved? I think not. 

Im sorry I'm getting confused, Colonists and king Charles are relevent to what Hamas did on the 7th of Oct am I missing something Deejai33.

9 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

Related to discussion about root cause of the conflict.

 

Colonists have apoligized in recent years about what happened in the past as a way to improve relations and move on.

 

   Jews have been living on the land for over 3000 years , the Jewish Temple of David is located in Jerusalem , Muslims came along to the land about 1500 years later .

   Muslims are the invaders of Jewish land 

5 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

Im sorry I'm getting confused, Colonists and king Charles are relevent to what Hamas did on the 7th of Oct am I missing something Deejai33.

He wants Israel to apologize to hamas for all the dead Jews. 

1 hour ago, deejai33 said:

 

Ultimately, politicians and their citizens do move on from attrocities. Yes.  

 

It might sound callous, unfeeling, inhuman.  But that is what happens in the political world.  Its the fate of millions of people which is being decided by politicians.

 

Is that how the political world works ?

 

I think the pro-israeli guys need to stop listing details of gruesome attrocities in every post.  We all agree hamas committed attrocities.  

 

Why keep writing about rape, beheading babies, removing fetus's over and over and over ?  A few times, OK, but in almost every post?

 

Up to you.

 

 

You seriously expect the two people to forgive and forget this shortly after all them deaths? I'm talking about both sides, to be clear. Don't think it works that way anywhere - and sure it does not hold in the Middle East.

 

As for your whining about mentioning atrocities, I doubt you failed to notice one poster who's going on and on and on and on about Palestinian babies, Palestinian casualty figures and all them sins real and imagined against the Palestinians. Doesn't seem to bother you that much as mentioning Hamas atrocities.

 

You're doing it wrong.

59 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

 

More details of how unborn babies are removed from mothers.

 

As I've posted elsewhere, we all agree this is wrong.  No need to mention it in every post you make.

 

Regards your point.  The event you describe in detail, happened in Israel.  I would think Israel would be willing for ICC investigators to see the scene.  Clearly a potential war crime.  But ICC has not been allowed into israel as far as I can tell.  See the ICC web site for details.  Not allowed into gaza either  (by israel?)

 

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-khan-kc-cairo-situation-state-palestine-and-israel

 

Israel will take care of it by itself. Many perpetrators dead. Some commanders killed in Gaza already. The rest to follow. There were at least two links to articles detailing how Israel set aside both operational and intel teams dedicated to this mission.

 

You can look up ICC cases and see how 'effective' and 'timely' their investigations and proceedings are.

 

Israel does not cooperate with the ICC and denies investigators entry to Israel. Investigators may enter the Gaza Strip via Egypt.

 

You treat the ICC and the UN as if they are unbiased, objective bodies - that's not really how Israel sees it, and I tend to agree with that.

50 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

Interesting.  I think its not so cut and dry.  

 

You focus on an individuals responsibility.  Yes, you are not responsible for what your grandfather did.  Although what if your familes wealth came from slave owning ?

 

But at the state/nation level its different.  If a state did 'bad' things and that resulted in great wealth for its citizens later on, then I think the state can be held accountable.  The state endures over time, even if individuals do not.

 

Many examples of states apologizing and making reparations. In UK currently, a kenya massacre is one such example.

 

 

 

You embrace the notion that Zionism equates with colonialism. You treat this as fact.

The reality is that it's an interpretation, and Israel does not see it that way, nor is this globally accepted.

 

So all this 'apologize' bit is not going to go down to well. An obvious question would be why Palestinians do not need to apologize for all their sins. The narratives of the two people are too far apart for this to be easy (or even possible) to agree on. Also, the 'apologize' bit is not exactly a Middle East thing. I don't think that if it happened it would be interpreted the way you (pretend to?) imagine.

Its no good saying a poster keeps going on name him so we can identify him otherwise its just someone throwing out an accusation.

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Jews have been living on the land for over 3000 years , the Jewish Temple of David is located in Jerusalem , Muslims came along to the land about 1500 years later .

   Muslims are the invaders of Jewish land 

That may be overstating but basically the Arabs are the Johnny come lately crew. But we must face current reality. Both peoples are there now. 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

He wants Israel to apologize to hamas for all the dead Jews. 

Israel demonizers are always expecting Israel to do absurd things that no other nation would ever be expected to do. No, it couldn't possibly be because Israel is the one Jewish state in a world with scads of Muslim states. Nah, perish the thought. Israel -- chosen for masochism and suicide. Been there, done that, will pass.

Intersting math / moral question:

 

What is the highest number of civilians deaths allowable to successfully take out a single enemy operative whilst still being able to maintain a legitimate claim to being civilised, humane and within the law?

 

Here's an example to ponder - 

 

Israel say they carried out airstrike that Hamas claim killed more than 50 people at Gaza's Jabalia refugee camp: 'Dozens of bodies' are recovered after site is reduced to giant crater - IDF claim their jets took out senior jihadi commander.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12693827/More-50-killed-Israeli-strike-Gazas-Jabalia-refugee-camp-Palestinian-health-officials-claim.html

 

Is 50:1 acceptable?

 

 

9 hours ago, transam said:

Oh dear, but they are not carpet bombing then.............😂

Nope, indiscriminately bombing though.

 

Have you heard about the child death toll?

Apparently a couple of kids have been inadvertently killed.

Not sure how that happened, given the IDF is using precision weapons.

Probably just more lies from Hamas.

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Israel demonizers are always expecting Israel to do absurd things that no other nation would ever be expected to do. No, it couldn't possibly be because Israel is the one Jewish state in a world with scads of Muslim states. Nah, perish the thought. Israel -- chosen for masochism and suicide. Been there, done that, will pass.

"...no other nation would ever be expected to do"?

 

Israel carries on as if they are being singled out when all that is being requested is for them to meet the minimum standards that the rest of the developed world adheres to.

 

Stop the war crimes and apartheid and people will stop demanding that they act civilised.

5 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Me neither, more anti-Muslim, but that is somehow not as bad as antisemitic. 

Why is that? 

Because in the Middle East not all muslims are terrorists, however all terrorists are muslim. 

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That may be overstating but basically the Arabs are the Johnny come lately crew. But we must face current reality. Both peoples are there now. 

 

What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense.

 

Israel was established in 1948, in the preceding 2,000 years there was no Jewish state, anywhere?

 

If I leave my luggage at the airport, after 90 days without pick up - it's gone.

 

Israel has zero claim to any land in the Middle East.

Just now, Skipalongcassidy said:

Because in the Middle East not all muslims are terrorists, however all terrorists are muslim. 

Does that hold for all eras?

 

Any non-Muslim terrorism in the 1940's?

7 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why should Israel care about what the ICC thinks? How will it benefit them? Israel would have to commit significant resources to facilitate and ICC investigation, and even if/when found guilty, what is the ICC going to do to hamas? Nothing. 

 

It is a waste of Israels time a resources. 

 

Exactly the same as Dictators not allowing international observers in during elections.

 

If you have nothing to hide....

7 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Well, it may have something to do with all the hamas apologists going on and on and often lying about Irael killing babies. 

 

Think that might have something to do with it?

 

The difference is whenever a non Israeli apologist is requested to condemn Hamas, they do so immediately and unequivocally.

 

Whenever Israel atrocities are mentioned to the Israeli apologists....crickets.

Wow - originally written in 1970 but reads as if it could have been penned just yesterday.

 

The latest phase of the undeclared war in the Middle East is based upon a profound miscalculation. The bombing raids deep into Egyptian territory will not persuade the civilian population to surrender, but will stiffen their resolve to resist. This is the lesson of all aerial bombardment.

The Vietnamese who have endured years of American heavy bombing have responded not by capitulation but by shooting down more enemy aircraft. In 1940 my own fellow countrymen resisted Hitler’s bombing raids with unprecedented unity and determination.

For this reason, the present Israeli attacks will fail in their essential purpose, but at the same time they must be condemned vigorously throughout the world.

 

https://www.heritagetimes.in/bertrand-russells-last-message-on-israel-and-palestine/