ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[Nick Carter icp]

39 minutes ago, bobbin said:

 

 

Hamas committed war crimes when they attacked October 7, killing women and children.

 

Israel is currently committing war crimes in their collective punishment of Gazan civilians, killing  women and children. Hamas is hiding underground.

 

 

 

    Israel's response isn't actually a war crime and its a legal response to being at war .

Israel is fighting   a war with Hamas in Gaza and some buildings are getting damaged in the process of the war .

   It is legal and it isn't a war crime 

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Whether something was preventable or not makes no difference?

 

🤷🤷🤷

 

So researching whether, say the holocaust, was preventable would be an entire waste of time with no lessons to be learnt?

 

🤷🤷👍🏻

Did it make any difference for 6,000,000 Jews of the thousands of dead children you hide behind? 

 

 

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, bobbin said:

My final contribution to this thread.. I'll come back to the topic, not this thread, in a few more weeks..

Then we'll see what has transpired , despite all the anti-intellectual to-ing and fro-ing and often ridiculous comments contained here.

 

Hamas committed war crimes when they attacked October 7, killing women and children.

 

Israel is currently committing war crimes in their collective punishment of Gazan civilians, killing  women and children. Hamas is hiding underground.

 

Like it or not, Hamas pulled off a successful attack that caught the Israelis by surprise. Massive fail for the Israeli leadership, intelligence apparatus and military. They had the Gazans contained in an open-air prison camp, complete with barbed wire and high walls.  Israel controlled ingress and egress. And still missed the signs. This was well-prepared by Hamas and has an end-game.

 

They have put the Palestinian question back on the front-page, when the imminent Saudi/Israel pact was trying to ignore it. It's the root cause of the long-lasting conflict.

 

While it's easy to bomb Gaza from the air, the IDF is not up to the task of subduing Hamas in Gaza. The Israeli Army is too soft..under-trained for the task at hand.  The reservists are not battle-hardened. It will not invade Gaza in force. They would suffer massive casualties. The defender has the advantage in a ruined urban setting.  And also, Netanyahu has had the hard word from the US.

 

Israel is dead-set against a 2 State solution and so far they have been successfull in torpedoing it..

That's over.

 

Peace, in the form of a Palestinian State, will be imposed on Israel.

 

And I could care less what the peanut gallery, almost all pro-Israel with little knowledge of the back-story thinks... They will undoubtedly be throwing around words like "terrorist apologist", not knowing or caring that terrorism, conducted by Jewish immigrants to the Palestinian Mandate, were instrumental in founding the Jewish State. Which has a right to exist but not only on it's terms...

 

I'd like to point out a curious phenomenon. Some posters (and more to the point, those apparently more invested in the Palestinian narrative) can go on and on about Israel' sins, shortcomings, existing and expected positions and whatnot. Somehow the same level of 'in depth' analysis and commentary is not much on display with regard to the other side (apart from rehashing of said narrative). Yes, some do the quote-a-poll, quote-a-statement thing, but that's not really it.

 

I guess maybe it's due to the fact that relevant information is less accessible, but still seems odd supporting a side and not being able to say a whole lot about it.

 

[transam]

11 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

 

I would like to associate myself to the above posts 100%

More fool you..............

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

I would say I am in 100% agreement with you.

 

I think the US has finally had enough.

Netanyahu and the extreme right in Israel are done for - time for the reasonable centre to take charge. 
 

There will always be extremists on both sides, but once a two state solution is in place, I believe the terrorists own populations will bring them to heal.

 

Peace between Israel and Palestine would be a devastating blow to global jihadists - something we can all agree is a win for all humanity.

 

 

There is nothing much to support your opinion that a two-state solution will cause respective populations to bring terrorists to heel.

If anything, many analysts and commentators acknowledge the difficulty of maintaining an agreement due to the efforts of extreme elements to disrupt it, and to cause shifts in public opinion.

 

Stating things as fact does not make them so.

[Morch]

31 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

To claim it was unpreventable is to claim that it is now unsolvable.

 

Pointless nihilism.

 

You claimed it was preventable. You have not supported that with anything semi-factual or rational.

 

[Social Media]

More removals have been required.

 

[Rimmer]

Following my public warning shown below A poster has now been removed from this topic and many of his posts also replies removed. 

 

Off topic posts deflecting the topic, also social media links and videos from unapproved sources have been removed, this is THE LAST PUBLIC WARNING about this on going deflection and trolling, post more of the same and you could be prohibited from this topic.

 

The War in Israel

Latest developments and discussion of events in the Israel-Hamas War. Any alleged factual claims must be supported by a valid link to an approved credible source.

 

  From the forum rules:

18. Social media content is acceptable in most forums. However, in factual areas such as but not limited to news, current affairs and health topics, social media cannot be used unless it is from a credible news media source or a government agency, and must include a link to the original source.

 

 

[freeworld]

56 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    Israel's response isn't actually a war crime and its a legal response to being at war .

Israel is fighting   a war with Hamas in Gaza and some buildings are getting damaged in the process of the war .

   It is legal and it isn't a war crime 

You don't know that.

 

Even the ICC and the UN still need to complete gathering evidence and witnesses and investigate and analyse all the evidence for crimes committed by both sides before it can be sent to the ICC for prosecution.

[proton]

4 minutes ago, freeworld said:

You don't know that.

 

Even the ICC and the UN still need to complete gathering evidence and witnesses and investigate and analyse all the evidence for crimes committed by both sides before it can be sent to the ICC for prosecution.

 

Total waste of time, nothing will come of it like nothing came of the attrocities committed by Russians in Ukraine

[Eloquent pilgrim]

9 minutes ago, freeworld said:

You don't know that.

 

Even the ICC and the UN still need to complete gathering evidence and witnesses and investigate and analyse all the evidence for crimes committed by both sides before it can be sent to the ICC for prosecution.

 

The UN have become a pointless organisation; they gather all their evidence (from Gaza) directly from Hamas, accepting whatever Hamas tells them as factual.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Eloquent pilgrim

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, freeworld said:

You don't know that.

 

Even the ICC and the UN still need to complete gathering evidence and witnesses and investigate and analyse all the evidence for crimes committed by both sides before it can be sent to the ICC for prosecution.

 

Not exactly.

 

What you say holds with regard to most of Israel's actions. While certainly much being unpalatable, it may not cross the bar so as to be labeled illegal.

 

Hamas's well documented infractions are very clear.

 

So while diplomatic language may require that bit about yet to be proven etc., it's not quite the same.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 minutes ago, freeworld said:

You don't know that.

Even the ICC and the UN still need to complete for crimes committed by both sides before it can be sent to the ICC for prosecution.

Will the ICC and UN also be 'gathering evidence and witnesses and investigate and analyse all the evidence' regarding the atrocity done by the Hamas terrorists?  Of course not - why - because Hamas is not a member of UN or ICC - they are a terrorist organisation. 

 

One question to all the pro-Palestine supporters - when did you first hear about 'Palestine'.  For me it was when Palestine Terrorists did the 'Munich Massacre' at the 1972 Olympics. Munich massacre - Wikipedia

 

[freeworld]

Just now, proton said:

 

Total waste of time, nothing will come of it like nothing came of the attrocities committed by Russians in Ukraine

That war is not over, there are already arrest warrants out on some participants in that war and it has restricted their travel to limited nations.

 

More to come.

[freeworld]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Will the ICC and UN also be 'gathering evidence and witnesses and investigate and analyse all the evidence' regarding the atrocity done by the Hamas terrorists?  Of course not - why - because Hamas is not a member of UN or ICC - they are a terrorist organisation. 

 

One question to all the pro-Palestine supporters - when did you first hear about 'Palestine'.  For me it was when Palestine Terrorists did the 'Munich Massacre' at the 1972 Olympics. Munich massacre - Wikipedia

 

Of course they will, and even the legal system in Israel has jurisdiction over the perpetrator crimes committed on their territory.

[Nick Carter icp]

7 minutes ago, freeworld said:

You don't know that.

 

Even the ICC and the UN still need to complete gathering evidence and witnesses and investigate and analyse all the evidence for crimes committed by both sides before it can be sent to the ICC for prosecution.

 

   I do know that .

Israel takes legal advice before participating in war and they stick to the rules

 

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Will the ICC and UN also be 'gathering evidence and witnesses and investigate and analyse all the evidence' regarding the atrocity done by the Hamas terrorists?  Of course not - why - because Hamas is not a member of UN or ICC - they are a terrorist organisation. 

 

One question to all the pro-Palestine supporters - when did you first hear about 'Palestine'.  For me it was when Palestine Terrorists did the 'Munich Massacre' at the 1972 Olympics. Munich massacre - Wikipedia

 

 

   I first heard about Palestinians after airplane hijacking 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Will the ICC and UN also be 'gathering evidence and witnesses and investigate and analyse all the evidence' regarding the atrocity done by the Hamas terrorists?  Of course not - why - because Hamas is not a member of UN or ICC - they are a terrorist organisation. 

 

One question to all the pro-Palestine supporters - when did you first hear about 'Palestine'.  For me it was when Palestine Terrorists did the 'Munich Massacre' at the 1972 Olympics. Munich massacre - Wikipedia

 

 

What makes you think that they do not gather such evidence? I would be surprised if they haven't.

Hamas is not a member, but Palestine is. When Palestine joined up, there was an issue with that, and the Palestinians had to clarify that it covers Hamas actions as well. The PA was quite distressed about it at the time, because de-facto they are the recognized Palestinian government. In effect, there is no way to enforce ICC issues when it comes to Hamas, though.

[freeworld]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   I do know that .

Israel takes legal advice before participating in war and they stick to the rules

 

Well that will come when all the evidence is analysed by the legal entities of the ICC and UN of what Israel thinks could justify their actions.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

The UN have become a pointless organisation; they gather all their evidence (from Gaza) directly from Hamas, accepting whatever Hamas tells them as factual.

 

I don't know if it's an issue of accepting Hamas claims as factual, so much as Hamas controlling access (and messing with) to evidence and witnesses.

[Thorgal]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Not exactly.

 

What you say holds with regard to most of Israel's actions. While certainly much being unpalatable, it may not cross the bar so as to be labeled illegal.

 

Hamas's well documented infractions are very clear.

 

So while diplomatic language may require that bit about yet to be proven etc., it's not quite the same.

 

PR damage of Israeli government + IDF is at domestic level a disaster.

 

The settlers in the North had to leave their towns and move to the center of the country as temporary solution.

The same can be said in the south nearing Gaza that the IDF security and legacy failed.

 

It's almost impossible for the Israeli government to guarantee after this multi front war that everything is going to be OK and safe as before.

 

Even the public opinion is like-never-before. Many Israeli's have lost faith in the Israeli government and the IDF. The social cocktail in Israel of the hard core ultra right and ultra orthodox (the Coalition) didn't stick with the new ultra leftie TikTok generation (The Opposition).

Edited November 2, 2023 by Thorgal

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   I do know that .

Israel takes legal advice before participating in war and they stick to the rules

 

 

Well, there's this saying about battle plans not surviving first contact with the enemy. Maybe not so different with legal advice. With the scope of military actions involved, it's almost a certainty some would cross the line. Then you have mistakes, which may count as well. Lastly, while the IDF and the Israeli government rely on legal advice, it does not follow that legal issues cannot be contended - it's not a foolproof thing. But way more organized and legit than some imagine.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

A breath of fresh air to see a well-written, knowledgeable post. 

This thread was fun but has  been taken over, as you say, by pro-Israelis with no knowledge of the atrocities leading up to Oct 7, or a refusal to acknowledge them. 

 

This thread was fun but has  been taken over, as you say, by pro-Israelis 

 

What?

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, freeworld said:

Of course they will, and even the legal system in Israel has jurisdiction over the perpetrator crimes committed on their territory.

I believe that most people here agree that some of what Israel is doing will at some point be deemed war crimes, the idea that the UN or the ICC is going to do anything of any significance to help end the conflict is ridiculous. 

 

It seems to me that all the UN wants to do is get Israel to stop pummeling hamas. Some would argue that this is purely for humanitarian reasons, while others will argue it is to allow hamas to regroup and resupply, but at the end of the day, it will only prolong the conflict. 

 

The only thing, IMO, that will end the conflict if for Israel to continue pummeling hamas until they surrender or until they are eradicated. 

 

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

A breath of fresh air to see a well-written, knowledgeable post. 

This thread was fun but has  been taken over, as you say, by pro-Israelis with no knowledge of the atrocities leading up to Oct 7, or a refusal to acknowledge them. 

 

 

    You enjoyed this thread when Hamas were winning and had successfully committed war crimes in Israel, but the thread isn't "fun" anymore because Israel retaliated and declared war on Hamas  ?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What makes you think that they do not gather such evidence? I would be surprised if they haven't.

Hamas is not a member, but Palestine is. When Palestine joined up, there was an issue with that, and the Palestinians had to clarify that it covers Hamas actions as well. The PA was quite distressed about it at the time, because de-facto they are the recognized Palestinian government. In effect, there is no way to enforce ICC issues when it comes to Hamas, though.

Exactly - Hamas has never been tried and found guilty by ICC - but their crimes are very clear. They have fired thousands of unguided rockets into Israel every year for a long time now.  Find the guilty verdict and I will stand corrected. 

[Yellowtail]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Well, there's this saying about battle plans not surviving first contact with the enemy. Maybe not so different with legal advice. With the scope of military actions involved, it's almost a certainty some would cross the line. Then you have mistakes, which may count as well. Lastly, while the IDF and the Israeli government rely on legal advice, it does not follow that legal issues cannot be contended - it's not a foolproof thing. But way more organized and legit than some imagine.

Like Mike Tyson's: “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I believe that most people here agree that some of what Israel is doing will at some point be deemed war crimes, the idea that the UN or the ICC is going to do anything of any significance to help end the conflict is ridiculous. 

 

It seems to me that all the UN wants to do is get Israel to stop pummeling hamas. Some would argue that this is purely for humanitarian reasons, while others will argue it is to allow hamas to regroup and resupply, but at the end of the day, it will only prolong the conflict. 

 

The only thing, IMO, that will end the conflict if for Israel to continue pummeling hamas until they surrender or until they are eradicated. 

 

If Israel are stopped from destroying Hamas, then this will happen again and again. Either Hamas destroys Israel, or Israel destroys Hamas. Anyone who thinks a settlement can be reached is stupid - Hamas will 'play along' with that, while they rebuild their arms and tunnels. That is what they have done every time Israel backs off - hopefully this time they dont back off and they finish it.  

[proton]

Just now, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

If Israel are stopped from destroying Hamas, then this will happen again and again. Either Hamas destroys Israel, or Israel destroys Hamas. Anyone who thinks a settlement can be reached is stupid - Hamas will 'play along' with that, while they rebuild their arms and tunnels. That is what they have done every time Israel backs off - hopefully this time they dont back off and they finish it.  

 

They follow the lying, devious terror example of their prophet. Start a war, beg for a cease fire when losing then spend the time to build up forces for another surprise attack showing no mercy. Hamas need rooting out like a nest of rats, killing a few will not be enough.

[Yellowtail]

22 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Of course they will, and even the legal system in Israel has jurisdiction over the perpetrator crimes committed on their territory.

So, the ICC issued an arrest warrant for Putin over six months ago. How has this helped the Ukrainians? Can they not find him?