ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[Yellowtail]

51 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

 I referred directly to Macron's statement, offered a rationale for it and suggested that his original words were his true sentiments.

 

You never showed that Macron claimed Israel was intentionally bombing civilians.  You lined to someone that claimed he said it. Show us his words, 

 

You can't.

[Thorgal]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

I think it interesting that the so many of war-crime experts here accuse Israel at the same time of indiscriminate bombing, and of targeting civilian. How is that possible? Does not indiscriminate bombing negate targeting? 

 

 

You don't use JDAM-Mk84 (2.000 Lbs - 16.000 USD) bombs to target a few Hamas individuals. This bomb has been designed to destroy tactical targets as buildings, bridges, tunnels, heavy equipment, etc...not for targeting only persons.

 

 

[coolcarer]

40 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I see that people are unwilling to engage in debate about substantive issues. I can draw any adverse inference I like to that.

The substantive issues have been discussed many times in the previous 300 or so pages. We are at the daily updates stage now. You are rehashing what has already been discussed time and time again...

[Wobblybob]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

You don't use JDAM-Mk84 (2.000 Lbs - 16.000 USD) bombs to target a few Hamas individuals. This bomb has been designed to destroy tactical targets as buildings, bridges, tunnels, heavy equipment, etc...not for targeting only persons.

 

 

Hey Thorgal a reality check, them that start wars don't get to chose what weapons the other side uses! 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Wobblybob said:

Hey Thorgal a reality check, them that start wars don't get to chose what weapons the other side uses! 

 

Did the war start on October 7th?

[coolcarer]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

You are blinded by some delusion that you can't now support.

I didn’t say Israel has been deliberately killing civilians though but I know a poster who did

[Thorgal]

4 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Hey Thorgal a reality check, them that start wars don't get to chose what weapons the other side uses! 

 

Agree, but only for combatants on both sides.

Non combatants can not be killed to target combatants on both sides.

 

Israel has a long history of using excessive/disproportionated force to innocent non combatant civilians.

[Wobblybob]

Just now, Thorgal said:

 

Agree, but only for combatants on both sides.

Non combatants can not be killed to target combatants on both sides.

 

Israel has a long history of using excessive/disproportionated force to innocent non combatant civilians.

Going around in circles again Thorgal, don't bomb Israel and they won't bomb you.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Agree, but only for combatants on both sides.

Non combatants can not be killed to target combatants on both sides.

 

Israel has a long history of using excessive/disproportionated force to innocent non combatant civilians.

Hamas has a long history of killing as many Jews as they can, and they are on record stating they want to kill them all. 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

I didn’t say Israel has been deliberately killing civilians though but I know a poster who did

 

Pretty sure that was me. Oh, wait, the Israeli government admitted that they targeted Jabalya so they said so as well.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Wobblybob said:

Going around in circles again Thorgal, don't bomb Israel and they won't bomb you.

 

Maybe don't shoot kids and don't steal land and they won't bomb you either?

[coolcarer]

14 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Pretty sure that was me. Oh, wait, the Israeli government admitted that they targeted Jabalya so they said so as well.

Your recollection of them saying they were going to deliberately target civilians lacks a………..mmmmml let me think a little………..oh, link.

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Your recollection of them saying they were going to deliberately target civilians lacks a………..mmmmml let me think a little………..oh, link. Back to my first post…lol

 

It's impossible that it was unintentional. Is that your contention?

 

 

[Amethyst]

A lot of recent bickering, baiting, flaming and general off-topic posts have been removed here.

 

For a couple of the more agitated posters here, I think it's time to take a break and cool down, and try to regain some composure.

 

 

[Thorgal]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Hamas has a long history of killing as many Jews as they can, and they are on record stating they want to kill them all. 

 

Yes, for sure. 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

 

 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Thorgal said:

 

Yes, for sure. 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

 

 

 

Let me get this right. One side is saying they want to kill as many Israelis as they can (as deplorable as that is) and the other side is actually doing it.

[Wobblybob]

16 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Yes, for sure. 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

 

 

Do you think that graph would tell a different story had the Palestinians not lobbed missiles into Israel, I do. 

[Thorgal]

23 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Let me get this right. One side is saying they want to kill as many Israelis as they can (as deplorable as that is) and the other side is actually doing it.

 

Yes, you can see it like that. 

 

But it's giving a sparkle of hope to see now from both sides new generations of people that want genuine peace and see themselves live together in full respect. I also hope that this time there will be a more decisive international influence for both to arrange their issues.

 

The traditional labour (more constructive) Zionism from Ben Gurion, Golda Meyer, Itzak Rabin, etc...saw a decline in their colonial projects and a decline of their cohesion with Israeli population and Jews outside Israel and were unfortunately replaced by the more revisionist (radical) Zionism of Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, etc...and brought the Nile to the Euphrates expansionism and fundamentalist principles back.

 

So we have from both side radical awful golems that helped  each other to be created and to further develop their misery on others - non combatant civilians -as you've said.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Thorgal

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Let me get this right. One side is saying they want to kill as many Israelis as they can...

Correct

21 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

...(as deplorable as that is) and the other side is actually doing it.

Incorrect. That is the par you and the other hamas apologists are making up.  

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Yes, you can see it like that. 

 

But it's giving a sparkle of hope to see now from both sides new generations of people that want genuine peace and see themselves live together in full respect. I also hope that this time there will be a more decisive international influence for both to arrange their issues.

 

The traditional labour (more constructive) Zionism from Ben Gurion, Golda Meyer, Itzak Rabin, etc...saw a decline in their colonial projects and a decline of their cohesion with Israeli population and Jews outside Israel and were unfortunately replaced by the more revisionist (radical) Zionism of Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, etc...and brought the Nile to the Euphrates expansionism and fundamentalist principles back.

 

So we have from both side radical awful golems that helped  each other to be created and to further develop their misery on others - non combatant civilians -as you've said.

 

 

 

I agree. I saw that Biden said that there now needs to be a 2 state solution and that many agree that Israel can no longer rule Gaza.  I also note that Israel insists it will maintain security control over Gaza so the killings will continue on both sides. Palestine needs to be occupied by a blue helmet army.

Edited November 12, 2023 by ozimoron

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I agree. I saw that Biden said that there now needs to be a 2 state solution and that many agree that Israel can no longer rule Gaza.  I also note that Israel insists it will maintain security control over Gaza so the killings will continue on both sides.

Everyone but hamas  has been calling for a two-state solution for as long as I can remember. 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Yellowtail

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

Maybe don't shoot kids and don't steal land and they won't bomb you either?

 

No Israeli soldiers or settlers in the Gaza Strip for years now.

Hamas took the chance to show things could be different, and turned into a terrorist base.

[Morch]

50 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Let me get this right. One side is saying they want to kill as many Israelis as they can (as deplorable as that is) and the other side is actually doing it.

 

The side that suffers more casualties is also the one constantly instigating new rounds of fighting, despite knowing the score. It's the same side that does not invest in any sort of protection to its people, and denies them the safety of its own underground facilities. The very same side who's leaders treat their people as 'sacrifices' for a 'cause'.

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No Israeli soldiers or settlers in the Gaza Strip for years now.

Hamas took the chance to show things could be different, and turned into a terrorist base.

 

Then how was that Israel was still shooting kids on Gaza land and stealing land with the illegal settlements?

 

Anyway, here it is from the horse's mouth.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-keep-security-control-in-gaza-indefinitely-after-war-netanyahu-says/

Edited November 12, 2023 by ozimoron

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I agree. I saw that Biden said that there now needs to be a 2 state solution and that many agree that Israel can no longer rule Gaza.  I also note that Israel insists it will maintain security control over Gaza so the killings will continue on both sides. Palestine needs to be occupied by a blue helmet army.

 

Almost all two-state formulations ever offered involve some level of Israeli security control over certain areas. Given the 7/10 attack, it would seem like a prudent position. On the other hand, since Netanyahu is neither a strong leader, nor a trustworthy one, most of what he says should not be taken very seriously. The same Netanyahu campaigned in 2008 under the 'dismantle Hamas rule' slogan. Most of what he says now if with the political aftermath in mind. Speaking to the base, as it were.

 

As for 'blue helmet army' - yeah, because that works so well in Lebanon, and worked so great in Syria once things went south.

[Yagoda]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

 

You don't use JDAM-Mk84 (2.000 Lbs - 16.000 USD) bombs to target a few Hamas individuals. This bomb has been designed to destroy tactical targets as buildings, bridges, tunnels, heavy equipment, etc...not for targeting only persons.

 

 

How do you know what bombs are being used on what target LOL

[Morch]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Everyone but hamas  has been calling for a two-state solution for as long as I can remember. 

 

 

 

Israel, under Netanyahu (which is in power for years now) was not committed to a two-state solution. The PA mostly made noises that it is, but never done much to promote things, and the Hamas is not much into it. I think you are referring to quite a long time ago, or to the several Center, Center-left governments that served over the years.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Then how was that Israel was still shooting kids on Gaza land and stealing land with the illegal settlements?

 

Anyway, here it is from the horse's mouth.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-keep-security-control-in-gaza-indefinitely-after-war-netanyahu-says/

 

There were no Israeli settlements left in the Gaza Strip since 2005 when Israel carried out its unilateral disengagement plan. What you are referring to is the West Bank.

 

The Palestinians had a choice, had a chance to show things could be different - they took the usual path. In some ways, this played into Israel's right wing's hands, supporting the notion that the other side couldn't be reasoned with, made agreements with - not a partner for peace.

 

Already gave my opinion about the 'horse' and his statements.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

There were no Israeli settlements left in the Gaza Strip since 2005 when Israel carried out its unilateral disengagement plan. What you are referring to is the West Bank.

 

The Palestinians had a choice, had a chance to show things could be different - they took the usual path. In some ways, this played into Israel's right wing's hands, supporting the notion that the other side couldn't be reasoned with, made agreements with - not a partner for peace.

 

Already gave my opinion about the 'horse' and his statements.

 

Well, they were correct, Israeli couldn't be reasoned with.  That's not a sentiment that they shouldn't be reasoned with but an acknowledgement of the reality. History has shown that Israel was never interested in a two state solution on UN agreed terms.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Well, they were correct, Israeli couldn't be reasoned with.  That's not a sentiment that they shouldn't be reasoned with but an acknowledgement of the reality. History has shown that Israel was never interested in a two state solution on UN agreed terms.

 

Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip. The Hamas could have made it into an example of what a Palestinian state would look like. They chose terrorism, violence and rejectionism. You can spin that which ever way you like, but the choice was taken by them - not by Israel. Considering the Hamas Charter, maybe not surprising.

 

As for your other claim - there were several Israeli governments who made efforts toward a two-state solution, so the 'never' is incorrect. That these efforts were, ultimately unsuccessful, is the result of multiple issues - some relating to Israel and some to the Palestinian side. Not really what the topic is about though.