Analysis The Gaza diplomacy of Biden, Sunak and co seems to be heading for failure

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I do hold Israel to high standards, they were given Palestine by my country and they need to respond a little bit better than they are doing now.

Wow............no words

[Nick Carter icp]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I do hold Israel to high standards, they were given Palestine by my country and they need to respond a little bit better than they are doing now.

 

 

 

   That cannot be true , Israel wasn't given the Country by any one other  Country , the U.N voted on it 

Are you from the USA ?

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I have already made my opinions on Hamas clear, I’ll repeat them again for you, I condemn them as terrorist and their actions as appalling.

 

And yes, I do expect Israel to take some action that can lead to a future peace, it’s very clear, it’s not going to come from Hamas.

 

I do hold Israel to high standards, they were given Palestine by my country and they need to respond a little bit better than they are doing now.

 

 

 

Perhaps you feel putting emoji’s on each other’s posts somehow replaces bias and discrimination with credibility.

 

Time for me to sign off tonight.

 

 

Links provided earlier (maybe on parallel topics, could dig them again if really necessary) detail a plausible version of Israel's plans. Basically, it does call for military action vs. Hamas, followed by security arrangements, transfer of authority to either international, PA or whatever can be agreed upon, pulling out and shutting the door.

 

Now, that might not be the comprehensive long term solution you seem to go on about, but given recent events and political realities - that's about it.

 

I don't think that there's any serious talk about some general peace talks (at least not as far as Israelis and Palestinians are concerned). Expecting it to be otherwise is not  realistic.

 

If you consider the Hamas to be a terrorist organization, you'll have to contend more seriously with the implications of the wide support it garners.  I don't think there's any easy or sure way to change that, not as long as Hamas's military capabilities remain.

 

Holding Israel to higher standards than other nations is cute, but countries and government tend to act strongly when something like 7/10 happens.

 

I don't feel strongly about emojis. If they bother you that much, I'll try to refrain when reading your posts.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

More lies, I never said that.

 

You implied exactly that.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, billd766 said:

But it is a start of relief convoys.

 

Does anybody know which country blocked the convoys?

 

Israel, Egypt or Palestinian/Gaza/Hamas?

Google gives me nothing so I can't prove anything about it, but apparently nothing goes in without israeli approval.

 

Ask yourself what other country would benefit from stopping trucks going in?

[Yellowtail]

13 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

stop telling lies, I have not justified any Hamas atrocities.

When you go on explaining what Israel has done to encourage the attacks, how is that not justification? 

 

When I go on explaining what Palestine has done to encourage the attacks from Israel, how is that not justification? 

 

I think you are being intellectually dishonest, at best. 

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

When you go on explaining what Israel has done to encourage the attacks, how is that not justification? 

 

When I go on explaining what Palestine has done to encourage the attacks from Israel, how is that not justification? 

 

I think you are being intellectually dishonest, at best. 

I think you are confusing me with somebody else, I have never attempted to justify any attacks on Israel, I’ve made it very clear that I condemn them.

[JBChiangRai]

Some here have said Israel’s air strikes are targeted, yet in the first 6 days following 7/10 Israel sent over 6,000 bombs into Gaza destroying entire neighbourhoods displacing thousands of people.  It’’s a stretch to believe they knew 6,000 locations of Hamas terrorists.

 

I don’t believe it is targeted, I believe Israel wants the whole of Gaza and the West Bank, in line with the map, Netanyahu presented to the United Nations showing Israel, having annexed those two regions.

[Yellowtail]

13 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

But Hamas would still be firing and killing Israel's

 

13 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

That’s probably true, but it’s up to Israel to be the better man and find another solution that avoids killing, innocent Gazan civilians.  I say, take the high moral ground Israel and stop, reacting with violence to provocation.

 

 

 

Why should Israel "...take the moral high ground..." and allow Palestine to just continue killing Israeli civilians indiscriminately? 

 

How long do you think it will take for Palestine/hamas to get tired of killing Israelis? 

 

How is allowing your own citizens to be killed taking the higher ground? 

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

 

Why should Israel "...take the moral high ground..." and allow Palestine to just continue killing Israeli civilians indiscriminately? 

 

How long do you think it will take for Palestine/hamas to get tired of killing Israelis? 

 

How is allowing your own citizens to be killed taking the higher ground? 

as I said, it’s fairly clear Hamas won’t make the first move, Israel is the most civilised nation, they should

[Yellowtail]

13 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

The Israeli Government should care about ALL lives if they want to take the moral high ground.

 

 

Violence begets Violence.  The key to winning this long term is winning the hearts and minds of the Palestinian people, if not then generation after generation of Palestinians will hate Israelis.

 
You have to divide Al Jazeera into 2 halves. Its broadcasting within the Arab Middle East is both antisemitic and biased.  Ut’s broadcasting worldwide is as biased and antisemitic as they think they can get away with.  You’re probably surprised I share your view to a some extent.

 

see above

 

Was the key to winning WW2 for the Allies to win over the hearts and minds of the Germans, Italians and Japanese? 

 

No, it took their unconditional surrender and occupation. 

[Yellowtail]

13 hours ago, observer90210 said:

No failure as Biden's policy is to precisely to create more tension, better if a war. Oil prices will hike and profit to the US majors, not to mention the many juicy arms deals at hand. So No, it's not a failure, for them.

Biden wants higher oil prices for the election, right. Americans love to pay more for gas, and they will thank Biden at the polls.

 

13 hours ago, observer90210 said:

Not to forget that a war is godsent to any politician on the tip of being rolled of the polls in the next elections. War is something that can turn a shrewd, incompetent or any corrupt politician into a hero.

Only if it goes well.

13 hours ago, observer90210 said:

Just look at what happened in Ukraine. Few months before the Rusky invasion, Ukrainian society wanted the current government out. A week after the rusky invasion, the vilains of yesterday,  become global rock stars.

Biden is running for president of Palestine? 

13 hours ago, observer90210 said:

Once again, the Hamas terrorism is digusting and unacceptab le. But that is no reason to punish all civilians ? A reason to violate all the international conventions on War ?  Same for the unacceptable Gaza bombings of Israel. But is that a reason to punish blindly israeli civilians amongst who, many want BiBi out of business.

but but but 

13 hours ago, observer90210 said:

Civilians are the ones who are innocent, not to blame and suffer be it in the US, Israel, Gaza or Ukraine. All due to the corrupt political policies of their leaders.

Civilians vote, so they are responsible for the policies of their leaders. 

[Yellowtail]

13 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

let’s not forget that Hamas is a terrorist organisation.

 

And let’s remember that the Gazan citizens are mostly innocent civilians.

 

Somebody has to start with an approach that stops the violence, clearly it’s not going to be Hamas, who else can it be, but Israel?

 

This is only your opinion. 

[Yellowtail]

37 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think you are confusing me with somebody else, I have never attempted to justify any attacks on Israel, I’ve made it very clear that I condemn them.

So, it is your position that Israel has done anything to encourage Palestine to hate and attack them, and you've posted nothing that would indicate otherwise. Is that correct? 

 

If that is the case, I was mistaken, and I sincerely apologize.

 

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Google gives me nothing so I can't prove anything about it, but apparently nothing goes in without israeli approval.

Israel is approving rocket building materials? 

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

Ask yourself what other country would benefit from stopping trucks going in?

Iran? 

 

Ask yourself: How does Israel benefit from starving and killing civilians? 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

16 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So, it is your position that Israel has done anything to encourage Palestine to hate and attack them, and you've posted nothing that would indicate otherwise. Is that correct? 

 

If that is the case, I was mistaken, and I sincerely apologize.

 

I think someone else was pointing out for the history and using that to justify, but I never did

 

I condemn all the violence, whoever perpetrates it, in my humble opinion, there is never any justification for terrorism or targeting civilians

[Yellowtail]

37 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Some here have said Israel’s air strikes are targeted, yet in the first 6 days following 7/10 Israel sent over 6,000 bombs into Gaza destroying entire neighbourhoods displacing thousands of people.

And Palestine has fired over 7,000 rockets at Israeli civilians. destroying entire homes and displacing people.

 

37 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

It’’s a stretch to believe they knew 6,000 locations of Hamas terrorists.

What is a "stretch" to believe they only use one bomb per target. Are you lying or do you really think that?  More likely there are dozens dropped on each target. 

37 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t believe it is targeted

And I believe they are. That you think they use one bomb per target may indicate your level of knowledge on the matter. 

37 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I believe Israel wants the whole of Gaza and the West Bank, in line with the map, Netanyahu presented to the United Nations showing Israel, having annexed those two regions.

Then why do they not just drop gas, poison the water or send in troops to kill everyone? Why would they destroy the infrastructure they were trying to take?

 

And why did they abandon Gaza and turn it over to the Palestinians in the first place? 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think someone else was pointing out for the history and using that to justify, but I never did

So, it is your position that Israel has done anything to encourage Palestine to hate and attack them, and you've posted nothing that would indicate otherwise.

 

Is that correct or is it not? 

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Some here have said Israel’s air strikes are targeted, yet in the first 6 days following 7/10 Israel sent over 6,000 bombs into Gaza destroying entire neighbourhoods displacing thousands of people.  It’’s a stretch to believe they knew 6,000 locations of Hamas terrorists.

 

I don’t believe it is targeted, I believe Israel wants the whole of Gaza and the West Bank, in line with the map, Netanyahu presented to the United Nations showing Israel, having annexed those two regions.

 

It's interesting that your posts often insist on a differentiation between Hamas and the Palestinians, Hamas and the civilian population, or whatever. I'm not getting into  how accurate these assertions are. What wish to point at is the lack of such distinctions when you discuss Israel, supposed Israeli policy and so on. I think you're more aware of Israeli politics and political structure than that.

 

There is no such overwhelming sentiment among Israelis corresponding to the 'river to the sea' paradigm. Not in the way you seem to imply. There is more support for something like that (from right wing and religious elements) with regard to the West Bank, but the Gaza Strip is a different case.

 

As for the first part of your post - Israel does have extensive intelligence on Hamas, and obviously some of the attacks would be targeting rocket launchers (which can be mobile, though most aren't), movements of Hamas units and so on. To claim that all targets attacked were legit - probably some weren't. But again, that was already discussed many times on here - what people imagine international law to be and what it actually allows for are very different things.

 

If the bombing were totally (or even mostly) indiscriminate, you'd see even more destruction and death around. War is never pretty.

[Morch]

47 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

as I said, it’s fairly clear Hamas won’t make the first move, Israel is the most civilised nation, they should

 

So basically, you're back to rewarding terrorist actions.

 

If you wish to claim Israel is 'more civilized' than the Palestinians, or Arab countries, or Iran - that comes with some implications as to the prospects of reaching a more comprehensive solution to this conflict. Can't have it both ways.

[JBChiangRai]

36 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So, it is your position that Israel has done anything to encourage Palestine to hate and attack them, and you've posted nothing that would indicate otherwise.

 

Is that correct or is it not? 

I think both sides have antagonised the other, but it’s still no justification for Hamas actions or Israel’s response

[JBChiangRai]

34 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So basically, you're back to rewarding terrorist actions.

 

If you wish to claim Israel is 'more civilized' than the Palestinians, or Arab countries, or Iran - that comes with some implications as to the prospects of reaching a more comprehensive solution to this conflict. Can't have it both ways.

No I don’t believe in rewarding terrorist actions, I don’t believe in revenge either.

 

I do believe in general Israel is more civilised than any Islamic country simply because that religion is one of hate and inequality.  You certainly treat your women much better.

 

Either one party stops or it continues until one party is destroyed. Do you believe Hamas will stop? I don’t.  Israel is trying to claim the moral high ground, so they should do something morally correct.

 

Yes I do believe those 6,000 bombs were not on 6,000 separate targets, but the result was destroying entire neighbourhoods, that looks like collective punishment and revenge to me more than anything else.

[bobbin]

14 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   That cannot be true , Israel wasn't given the Country by any one other  Country , the U.N voted on it 

Are you from the USA ?

I believe that it is true.. And if you think that JBCR is referring to the USA, then your knowledge of the background to this political/religious conflict is sorely lacking..

 

The British were given responsibility for the Palestinian Mandate after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1. The French were given responsibility for Lebanon and other areas for the same reason. Neither were meant to be permanent...

 

At the end of WW2 Britain was still in charge and looking to discharge and end their responsibility for the Mandate. They were influenced by the Balfour Declaration but it was not a certainty which direction they were going to go..

 

Proponents of a Jewish State were openly in conflict with British Authorities, killing many (many!) British soldiers. They were what we today call terrorists. They assassinated the United Nations peace envoy, probably to ensure that there was no compromise agreement re the local population, including long-time Jewish residents (a minority). Meanwhile Jewish survivors of the Holocaust were pouring into the area... Cynics suggest that this was encouraged by various guilt-ridden European leaders...

 

After 3 years of conflict with various militant Jewish organizations, Britain prematurely threw in the towel and left early, leaving the Jewish nationalists as the military power on the ground..

 

And here we are..

[billd766]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Some here have said Israel’s air strikes are targeted, yet in the first 6 days following 7/10 Israel sent over 6,000 bombs into Gaza destroying entire neighbourhoods displacing thousands of people.  It’’s a stretch to believe they knew 6,000 locations of Hamas terrorists.

 

I don’t believe it is targeted, I believe Israel wants the whole of Gaza and the West Bank, in line with the map, Netanyahu presented to the United Nations showing Israel, having annexed those two regions.

I don't think that Israel actually wants Gaza as they had it once before. What I DO believe, is that Israel under Netanyahu's government want to eradicate the entire population of Gaza and the East bank and end up with a single state, composed of Israeli's and some "tame" Palestinians just for show.

[JBChiangRai]

46 minutes ago, bobbin said:

I believe that it is true.. And if you think that JBCR is referring to the USA, then your knowledge of the background to this political/religious conflict is sorely lacking..

 

The British were given responsibility for the Palestinian Mandate after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1. The French were given responsibility for Lebanon and other areas for the same reason. Neither were meant to be permanent...

 

At the end of WW2 Britain was still in charge and looking to discharge and end their responsibility for the Mandate. They were influenced by the Balfour Declaration but it was not a certainty which direction they were going to go..

 

Proponents of a Jewish State were openly in conflict with British Authorities, killing many (many!) British soldiers. They were what we today call terrorists. They assassinated the United Nations peace envoy, probably to ensure that there was no compromise agreement re the local population, including long-time Jewish residents (a minority). Meanwhile Jewish survivors of the Holocaust were pouring into the area... Cynics suggest that this was encouraged by various guilt-ridden European leaders...

 

After 3 years of conflict with various militant Jewish organizations, Britain prematurely threw in the towel and left early, leaving the Jewish nationalists as the military power on the ground..

 

And here we are..

Whilst what I said is true, I was being flippant.

 

Your assessment is accurate.

[Morch]

48 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

No I don’t believe in rewarding terrorist actions, I don’t believe in revenge either.

 

I do believe in general Israel is more civilised than any Islamic country simply because that religion is one of hate and inequality.  You certainly treat your women much better.

 

Either one party stops or it continues until one party is destroyed. Do you believe Hamas will stop? I don’t.  Israel is trying to claim the moral high ground, so they should do something morally correct.

 

Yes I do believe those 6,000 bombs were not on 6,000 separate targets, but the result was destroying entire neighbourhoods, that looks like collective punishment and revenge to me more than anything else.

 

 

But what you offer still amounts to rewarding Hamas's actions. Citing the destruction of Gaza, or the loss of Palestinian lives is alright, but these are not things Hamas cares about. If this war ends with Hamas holding on to it's terrorist capabilities, leadership intact and hostages held (or released in return for thousands of Hamas men, that's pretty much it. It will have extra motivation to repeat this (or version of) in the future, and so will other adversaries.

 

I do not think Hamas will stop on its own. I think it should be stopped. I'm not sure that letting Hamas get on with things is the correct moral choice.

 

If you see the Palestinians as having more issues with morality, religion and so on, then perhaps it would be wise to re-think applying Western concepts and perceptions to related ideologies, points of view, and actions. Maybe not everyone is playing by the same rules here.

 

You can keep saying revenge, and maybe that was even a thing in the first couple of days of the Israeli aerial bombings, but considering Hamas does hide behind the civilians, embedding itself within, it's not realistic to expect the response (especially considering the magnitude) to be 'surgical'. With previous rounds of fighting, it was pretty much a pattern - Israeli attacks were labeled wholesale as war crimes (usually on media, political statements and social media), but things looking differently after actual legal analysis. I'm not saying what Israel is doing is perfectly alright, moral, good or any of these things - sometimes there are not good choices.

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

38 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I don't think that Israel actually wants Gaza as they had it once before. What I DO believe, is that Israel under Netanyahu's government want to eradicate the entire population of Gaza and the East bank and end up with a single state, composed of Israeli's and some "tame" Palestinians just for show.

 

  At least those in the West Bank will be safe from harm 

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

But what you offer still amounts to rewarding Hamas's actions. Citing the destruction of Gaza, or the loss of Palestinian lives is alright, but these are not things Hamas cares about. If this war ends with Hamas holding on to it's terrorist capabilities, leadership intact and hostages held (or released in return for thousands of Hamas men, that's pretty much it. It will have extra motivation to repeat this (or version of) in the future, and so will other adversaries.

 

I do not think Hamas will stop on its own. I think it should be stopped. I'm not sure that letting Hamas get on with things is the correct moral choice.

 

If you see the Palestinians as having more issues with morality, religion and so on, then perhaps it would be wise to re-think applying Western concepts and perceptions to related ideologies, points of view, and actions. Maybe not everyone is playing by the same rules here.

 

You can keep saying revenge, and maybe that was even a thing in the first couple of days of the Israeli aerial bombings, but considering Hamas does hide behind the civilians, embedding itself within, it's not realistic to expect the response (especially considering the magnitude) to be 'surgical'. With previous rounds of fighting, it was pretty much a pattern - Israeli attacks were labeled wholesale as war crimes (usually on media, political statements and social media), but things looking differently after actual legal analysis. I'm not saying what Israel is doing is perfectly alright, moral, good or any of these things - sometimes there are not good choices.

 

 

I don’t see it as rewarding Hamas, but I can see your point of view.

 

I would rather Israel broker a peace deal than an intermediary.  The world is watching and thousands of civilians killed is not going across well.

 

 

 

 

[charleskerins]

On 10/23/2023 at 12:04 PM, xylophone said:

History is almost always worth knowing, esp if it give a background to current events.

 

Over and out on this thread.

too bad methinks you doth make much sense   " History is almost always worth knowing, esp if it give a background to current events."

[Morch]

1 hour ago, bobbin said:

I believe that it is true.. And if you think that JBCR is referring to the USA, then your knowledge of the background to this political/religious conflict is sorely lacking..

 

The British were given responsibility for the Palestinian Mandate after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1. The French were given responsibility for Lebanon and other areas for the same reason. Neither were meant to be permanent...

 

At the end of WW2 Britain was still in charge and looking to discharge and end their responsibility for the Mandate. They were influenced by the Balfour Declaration but it was not a certainty which direction they were going to go..

 

Proponents of a Jewish State were openly in conflict with British Authorities, killing many (many!) British soldiers. They were what we today call terrorists. They assassinated the United Nations peace envoy, probably to ensure that there was no compromise agreement re the local population, including long-time Jewish residents (a minority). Meanwhile Jewish survivors of the Holocaust were pouring into the area... Cynics suggest that this was encouraged by various guilt-ridden European leaders...

 

After 3 years of conflict with various militant Jewish organizations, Britain prematurely threw in the towel and left early, leaving the Jewish nationalists as the military power on the ground..

 

And here we are..

 

"Proponents of a Jewish State were openly in conflict with British Authorities, killing many (many!) British soldiers."

 

If memory serves, about 150 British soldiers, policemen, and officials were killed by Jewish terrorists (1920-1948). The Arab Revolt in Palestine (1936-1939) resulted in at least double casualties figures than that.