Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

So that's twice you apparently you see in it no relevance to your one-sideism?

Correct.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Correct.

In that case, maybe you can point to where you express some moral qualms about what Israel is doing?

[Jeff the Chef]

50 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I would say that anyone that thinks Fink...'s views represent "the truth" has a very poor relation with reality.

Find anything you like where he lies in any of his writings, Alan Dershowitz has been for years.

 

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

In that case, maybe you can point to where you express some moral qualms about what Israel is doing?

Feel free to go through my post history if you are so interested in my morals. Get back to me once you've gone through the 100s of posts I've made countering hamas apologists and daily updates.

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Feel free to go through my post history if you are so interested in my morals. Get back to me once you've gone through the 100s of posts I've made countering hamas apologists and daily updates.

I am asking for evidence of your moral qualms. Not evidence of your morals. That you won't even mention anything in passing re anything immoral committed by one party to this conflict, is a pretty clear indication that you've got nothing.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Can you share with us exactly what is the added value in the war is fighting now? In WW2 it was about liberating Europeans from Nazism. The Korean War was and the UKraine war is about resisting invasion from foes ruled by despots. Even in other wars where the justifications were either based on delusion or deception or some mixture of both, at least there was some sort of appeal to idealism. What is adding value to Israel's campaign against Hamas? Is Israel promising to help rebuild Gaza? To pursue policies different from those it has pursued in the past?  As far as I can tell, it's about eliminating Hamas. It can be argued that Israel's plan to exterminate Hamas may be necessary, and that taking vengeance is only incidental (unconvincing), but what higher principle is moving Israelis to look " into death’s eyes without blinking."

As for conduct in war. Well, you're setting a very low bar in comparing Israel to Hamas.. Who knows what Israeli troops are up to considering that reporters are mostly banned? A few reports, like the beating of that Gazan poet get some play, but it's mostly darkness.  

 

I thought it was clear enough that the reference was to the Israelis point of view. Can't say I'm overly surprised at you don't get it, but if it helps, try thinking back to 9/11, and multiply it by some. Whether correct or not, the prevailing feeling in Israel (and among IDF soldiers in the Gaza Strip) seems to be that this is pretty much a fight against evil.ting evil, and hence, righteous. Your arguments and examples are largely irrelevant to this sentiment, which was what I commented on. 

 

Your closing remark is a nothing-comment. I don't think I implied what you allege. And as for you 'we-don't-know-so-anything-is-possible' - now that's kinda low (if expected).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

As it happens I have read and watched many of his interviews and am of the opinion that his background, history and idea's are exactly what this conflict needs, a truthful look at reality.

 

Of course you have. Then again, you would....

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I am asking for evidence of your moral qualms. Not evidence of your morals. That you won't even mention anything in passing re anything immoral committed by one party to this conflict, is a pretty clear indication that you've got nothing.

🥱

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I thought it was clear enough that the reference was to the Israelis point of view. Can't say I'm overly surprised at you don't get it, but if it helps, try thinking back to 9/11, and multiply it by some. Whether correct or not, the prevailing feeling in Israel (and among IDF soldiers in the Gaza Strip) seems to be that this is pretty much a fight against evil.ting evil, and hence, righteous. Your arguments and examples are largely irrelevant to this sentiment, which was what I commented on. 

 

Your closing remark is a nothing-comment. I don't think I implied what you allege. And as for you 'we-don't-know-so-anything-is-possible' - now that's kinda low (if expected).

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's just plain B.S. Here is what you wrote: "Maybe so, but I think there is some value (or added value) to what one fights for..." That's not about feeling, that's about a cause. What is that cause?

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I am asking for evidence of your moral qualms. Not evidence of your morals. That you won't even mention anything in passing re anything immoral committed by one party to this conflict, is a pretty clear indication that you've got nothing.

 

Don't see you running around the forum having issues with Hamas/Palestinian supporters posting one-sided commentary.

[placeholder]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Don't see you running around the forum having issues with Hamas/Palestinian supporters posting one-sided commentary.

False. I have harshly criticized certain members supporting Hamas. I have called out a few on their antisemitism, another on some nonsense about Israel not disclosing it's hostage policy and lots of others.. I don't intervene much, especially when the name-calling begins, but then neither do you to those who offer some pretty horrifying, and what's worse, false  statements and assertions in support of Israel.

[Morch]

Just now, placeholder said:

That's just plain B.S. Here is what you wrote: "Maybe so, but I think there is some value (or added value) to what one fights for..." That's not about feeling, that's about a cause. What is that cause?

 

BS would apply to your usual argumentative style, insisting posters meant something else than they did. I have no clear idea what your issue is this time, even. I'm not surprise you're not getting it - not your thing. But, IMO, when soldier believe what they fight for is good, just, right - that adds to their resolve and resilience. You can now commence your usual nonsense, but by no means feel compelled.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

False. I have harshly criticized certain members supporting Hamas. I have called out a few on their antisemitism, another on some nonsense about Israel not disclosing it's hostage policy and lots of others.. I don't intervene much, especially when the name-calling begins, but then neither do you to those who offer some pretty horrifying, and what's worse, false  statements and assertions in support of Israel.

 

Yawn. You pick low hanging fruit on the Hamas/Palestinian supporting side. The more standard badgering is reserved for Israel supporters.

 

[placeholder]

Just now, Morch said:

 

BS would apply to your usual argumentative style, insisting posters meant something else than they did. I have no clear idea what your issue is this time, even. I'm not surprise you're not getting it - not your thing. But, IMO, when soldier believe what they fight for is good, just, right - that adds to their resolve and resilience. You can now commence your usual nonsense, but by no means feel compelled.

Again with the deflecting insults. What you are saying now is absolutely different from what you originally claimed and no amount of  dismissive comments can change it.

 "Maybe so, but I think there is some value (or added value) to what one fights for..." is not the same thing at all as, Maybe so but I think there is some added value in believing  in what one fights for which would apply equally well to Hamas fighters.

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yawn. You pick low hanging fruit on the Hamas/Palestinian supporting side. The more standard badgering is reserved for Israel supporters.

 

I actually haven't participated much in this thread at all because of all the name calling going on in which you were a participant. Once the moderators did a fairly thorough house cleaning I rejoined the fray.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Again with the deflecting insults. What you are saying now is absolutely different from what you originally claimed and no amount of  dismissive comments can change it.

 "Maybe so, but I think there is some value (or added value) to what one fights for..." is not the same thing at all as, Maybe so but I think there is some added value in believing  in what one fights for which would apply equally well to Hamas fighters.

Jeez. Give it a rest. The original quote was directed towards a female hostage anyway not any fighters on either side.

[Morch]

Just now, placeholder said:

Again with the deflecting insults. What you are saying now is absolutely different from what you originally claimed and no amount of  dismissive comments can change it.

 "Maybe so, but I think there is some value (or added value) to what one fights for..." is not the same thing at all as, Maybe so but I think there is some added value in believing  in what one fights for which would apply equally well to Hamas fighters.

 

Yeah, as said - you tend to do this: start a daft argument about what someone posted, insist they meant something else, disregard they comments to the contrary, fall back on some semantics or other. I have no doubt you understood my meaning, if not the first time, then the second.

 

As for Hamas men - maybe should have spelled it out for your benefit, but given the manner participating 'elite' troops broke under investigation, especially when confronted with 7/10 atrocities committed, religious contradictions, and disparity between leaders actions and words - I don't think it's quite the same.

[placeholder]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Jeez. Give it a rest. The original quote was directed towards a female hostage anyway not any fighters on either side.

The original comment was the kind of balderdash that infects public discourse during wars.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I actually haven't participated much in this thread at all because of all the name calling going on in which you were a participant. Once the moderators did a fairly thorough house cleaning I rejoined the fray.

 

Whatever.

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The original comment was the kind of balderdash that infects public discourse during wars.

Really

 

I thought it was quite good considering she had spent 50 days as a hostage underground held by the terrorists:

 

 

Or perhaps you would have preferred just this one with the lit emoji's from a different tweet?

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1729641014757892566

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

37 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Of course you have. Then again, you would....

So, you have nothing.

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Really

 

I thought it was quite good considering she had spent 50 days as a hostage underground held by the terrorists:

 

 

Or perhaps you would have preferred just this one with the lit emoji's from a different tweet?

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1729641014757892566

 

 

Right. It's a really good quote because as history tell us, as long as your side can face death without blinking, it's sure to win.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

So, you have nothing.

 

How so? I said I don't believe you knew the guy even existed prior to this. I also said I'm not surprised you quoted him once you did.

Birds of a feather and all that.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Right. It's a really good quote because as history tell us, as long as your side can face death without blinking, it's sure to win.

 

How much attention do you think such a comment merits? Would 10 posts be enough? Are 20 required? Maybe some level of proportion is in order?

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Right. It's a really good quote because as history tell us, as long as your side can face death without blinking, it's sure to win.

She has won, she got out alive.

 

Ok I'll leave you with the official media spokesman from Israel and his take on it, yes a really good quote but it seems you're deliberately attempting to derail the topic

https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1729817548294590801

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

How much attention do you think such a comment merits? Would 10 posts be enough? Are 20 required? Maybe some level of proportion is in order?

How many of my comments on this topic were initiated by me and how many were replies to someone else?

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

How many of my comments on this topic were initiated by me and how many were replies to someone else?

 

Not that I see how that matters, but anyway, you are not compelled to reply to each and every post.

[Morch]

Guess a bit of a media circus up later on today (over there, time differences), as Ms. Tamimi is up for release. Also up for release are 7 Palestinian ladies who are Israeli citizens. Gonna be interesting.

[Danny Australia]

 

https://s.france24.com/media/display/86da1b7e-8e31-11ee-9471-005056a97e36/w:980/p:16x9/374401228abc4e57c4c5fd89c696ff9d6303f95a.webp

 

The exchange of prisoners between Hamas and Israel has been quite interesting to observe.  

 

Almost all Palestinian prisoners, many of whom have no affiliation with Hamas, claim to have experienced mistreatment including denial of healthcare, denial of visitors and phone calls, starvation, beatings, particularly since October 7. However, there is Zero evidence of mistreatment of any Israeli or foreign prisoners held by Hamas.

 

Israeli security officials have been actively cautioning released Palestinian prisoners (mostly children and women) against displaying any signs of celebration, either inside or outside their homes or risk immediate re arrest. Sweets and flags were confiscated from homes with press and visitors asked to leave. 

 

On the other hand, Israeli released prisoners are under restrictions, preventing them from speaking to the press, aiming to avoid a recurrence of previously released prisoners, on humane grounds, who had praised humane treatment by Hamas fighters during their captivity.

 

The behavior of the so-called "only democracy in the Middle East" and its lack of transparency in relation to prisoners' swap makes it look like North Korea.

 

The linked video shows a released Israeli hostage last night, along with her pet dog, appears unharmed, prompting reflection on who deserves to be labeled a "human animal" in this context.

 

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Danny Australia said:

 

https://s.france24.com/media/display/86da1b7e-8e31-11ee-9471-005056a97e36/w:980/p:16x9/374401228abc4e57c4c5fd89c696ff9d6303f95a.webp

 

The exchange of prisoners between Hamas and Israel has been quite interesting to observe.  

 

Almost all Palestinian prisoners, many of whom have no affiliation with Hamas, claim to have experienced mistreatment including denial of healthcare, denial of visitors and phone calls, starvation, beatings, particularly since October 7. However, there is Zero evidence of mistreatment of any Israeli or foreign prisoners held by Hamas.

 

Israeli security officials have been actively cautioning released Palestinian prisoners (mostly children and women) against displaying any signs of celebration, either inside or outside their homes or risk immediate re arrest. Sweets and flags were confiscated from homes with press and visitors asked to leave. 

 

On the other hand, Israeli released prisoners are under restrictions, preventing them from speaking to the press, aiming to avoid a recurrence of previously released prisoners, on humane grounds, who had praised humane treatment by Hamas fighters during their captivity.

 

The behavior of the so-called "only democracy in the Middle East" and its lack of transparency in relation to prisoners' swap makes it look like North Korea.

 

The linked video shows a released Israeli hostage last night, along with her pet dog, appears unharmed, prompting reflection on who deserves to be labeled a "human animal" in this context.

 

 

 

 

Who's telling you the Israeli hostages are forbidden to speak to the press?

 

Freed Hamas captives tell of fear, squalor and hunger

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67556006

 

Why do you believe released Palestinian terrorists and kids