Sneaking around corners on motorbikes

[Skipalongcassidy]

9 hours ago, kwilco said:

you can't tell from the video how far away to other road user was - I would suggest he expected her to go in front of him - however holding a baby, she was probably restricted in her ability to manoeuvre the bike or even apply the brakes. - during that |second" she would have travelled 20 metres - I suspect he saw her a couple of seconds before that  she coud have been anywhere up. to 100 metres away.

What part do you not understand about this "accident"... he was driving recklessly by any standard which immediately puts him in the wrong... quit with the rest of your excuses and victim blaming.

[Lacessit]

11 hours ago, kwilco said:

Yes - I appear to be flogging a dead horse - unfortunately people are too limited to understand. There is stupid, stupider and racist - so how would you expect a rcist to know?

One clue is that racists spend a lot of time blaming others for their shortcomings and arguing they aren't racists - QED.

I drive between Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai regularly. For 12 years, I have seen Thai drivers do the most stupid things. Not isolated instances, these are routine occurrences. Running red lights, overtaking up crests and on blind curves, texting while driving, assuming right of way. IME, most Thai drivers seem to think mirrors are for applying makeup, or squeezing pimples. 80% of the motorists on two wheels are not wearing helmets, and some even remove their rear vision mirrors.

 

When I first started driving in Thailand, I got my Thai scooter license on the strength of an Australian car license, a 200 baht medical certificate, and being able to identify the colors of a traffic light.

 

Subsequently, I got my Australian motorcycle license. The written test was 40 questions, split evenly between road laws, and motorcycle driving skills. The pass mark was 35/40. If one failed, re-apply in one months' time.

The practical test consisted of 15 minutes checking skills such as slow riding, an obstacle course, braking from a specified speed within a specified distance, etc. Put one foot on the ground during the tests, you flunked.

 

It's a serious offense in Australia to drive without a license. 6 month's jail for a second time. Here, 200 baht papers over everything.

 

If you want to talk about racism, consider this: Any accident dispute between a foreigner and a Thai which is taken to the police will almost automatically be resolved in favor of the Thai, irrespective of who is at fault. If I am a racist, why would I be with my Thai GF for nearly ten years?

 

The link between poor driver education/training and high death and injury rates on the roads is indisputable, regardless of which country it is. IMO anyone who thinks otherwise is an imbecile.

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

13 hours ago, kwilco said:

14 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Stationary for a second, stopped right in her path, immediately in front of her.

you can't tell from the video how far away to other road user was - I would suggest he expected her to go in front of him - however holding a baby, she was probably restricted in her ability to manoeuvre the bike or even apply the brakes. - during that |second" she would have travelled 20 metres - I suspect he saw her a couple of seconds before that  she coud have been anywhere up. to 100 metres away.

I edited that comment very quickly after posting it after looking at the video again, he was not even stationary when she collided with him.

[richard_smith237]

10 hours ago, kwilco said:

11 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

the motorcyclist was still an idiot for pulling out in to road he couldn't see into...   

 

I don't thinl there was any visibility until he got out that far - and that's why he stopped - due to the poor road markings he probably had no idea of his actual position on the junction.

 

You're trying so hard to avoid the 'blame game' (highlighted in your comment below) that you are picking up on 'any other possible' reason not to blame the motorcyclist for his careless actions. 

 

There are plenty on contributing factors...  the primary one is stupidity in entering a junction he couldn't see into until he was sure it was clear.

 

You mentioned that you [don't think there was any visibility until he got out that far - and that's why he stopped]...   He stopped because he was about to get hit by another vehicle.

 

I agree, he may not have had any idea of his actual position in the road - that also shows an element of stupidity.

 

You want to avoid the 'blame game' and I agree, in aggregate there is more than just 'individual blame' when such incidents occur, however, removing 'individual blame / fault' as a primary factor is flawed...

 

People do dumb stuff and they are to blame.

 

The maouvres I've seen here can only be explained with complete stupidity.

Numerous times had motorcycles pull out in front of me in my car without looking and I've had to brake hard (there was clear visibility).

I've had a family of 4, riding down the pavement towards me on my bike, suddenly leave the pavement and ride straight towards me, I'm on a main road and the only action I can take is to swerve to avoid then (fortunately no cars overtaking me).

 

You want to avoid the blame game... but there are just too many examples I see where people are absolutely to blame for their utter stupidity and outright dangerous manoeuvres. 

 

This is not just Thailand, people do dumb, dangerous stuff everywhere...  but with an absence of enforcement, they get away with more dangerous dumb stuff here which makes it 'habitual'.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, kwilco said:

I think the main problem with people on this site, the public in general and unfortunately the Thai leaders is that they don't see road safety as a public health issue and find it impossible to wrench themselves away from the "blame game".

THis is a terribly unproductive way of looking at raod safety - as soon as words like "Tai drivers" 'bad driving" "his fault" come up the process is doomed.

 

Below is a link to an Australia view on the blame game that outlines why it is a waste of time....

 

https://roadsonline.com.au/stopping-the-blame-game/

 

 

[ketilnm]

On 12/7/2023 at 3:24 AM, kwilco said:

Like so many foreigners, you don't understand driving in Thailand or the video. THen try to make up some wierd assumptions as if you are superior to Thai people.

You do realise that you can watch the same sort of driving in videos from all over the world including UK?

He don't understand driving in Thailand? Please.. You one of the farlangs who try to defend the stupid and dangerous driving from thai People? You say you can watch bad driving from all around the world,  then please explain why Thailand has one of the world's most deaths in traffic?

[stereolab]

9 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

victim blame much... exactly how did you determine that she was driving too fast... and when did side streets become a "hazardous area" by nature. 

Her excessive speed,with a baby in her arms is obvious. I specified “junction” in my comment, not side street. Motorcycles, regardless of the danger they are putting themselves or others in, will NOT stop and look for oncoming traffic.

[papa al]

15 hours ago, ketilnm said:

please explain why Thailand has one of the world's most deaths in traffic?

... because more people [%] use motos than in the west.?

[300sd]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:43 AM, kwilco said:

The 5 pillars of road safety are

 

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

 

In relation to this video how do they apply?

Firstly we must acknowledge that the videos doesn’t show the whole picture – particularly the course of the woman when out of camera shot and the angles of visibility.

 

Education

Both parties involved clearly have little education on road safety – most governments do this but in Thailand it is almost non-existent, they didn’t even think to wear crash helmets and are using pee-taught driving techniques that are common to Thai road users. The woman clearly had restricted control over her vehicle. This means when human error occurs the results tend to be more serious than they need to be.

(my guess is the woman saw the bike come out of the junction and assumed she would pass behind, but the man saw her late and stopped thinking she would go in front – the resulting combination of human errors  - split second judgements – meant the collision occurred)

 

Enforcement

No -one stopped them from driving without helmets or carry an under-age passenger

 

Engineering means both vehicles and roads – we can’t judge the vehicles but as has been pointed out there are several concerns about the junction – road markings and visibility been the most obvious.

 

Emergency – the response time in the UK for SERIOUS injury is 8 minutes (at present this doesn’t happen very often) BUT in Thailand there are no targets and no uniform emergency services, first responders or paramedics.

 

Evaluation – as can be seen by the nonsense promulgated on this thread alone analysis and metrication of this accident is pure conjecture by amateurs. Will the police do any better  - of course not!  The result is we learn nothing from this to help prevent future crashes

 

PS – “sneaking round the corner” i=s not a complete description.

 

The man is obviously being cautious because he can’t see properly and the lines of travel is extremely common on Thai roads – if you want to understand this then you need to understand that unlike Europe where road travel was common before the motorcar, in Thailand the main mode of transport was by boat – the traffic sense, rules and behaviour stem largely from that culture hence the line of the male motorcyclist.

If you repeat to yourself whilst driving in Thailand “I’m in a boat” “I’m in a boat” you’ll suddenly find you for in with the traffic much better.

Of course if you’ve never navigated a boat on a river, it may not be that apparent to you. You have to shed your horse and cart mentality for a boat one.

 

There is one pillar of road safety.

1. Don't go where someone else is going.

She had the right of way and his poor riding habits caused this accident.

[novacova]

36 minutes ago, 300sd said:

She had the right of way and his poor riding habits caused this accident.

…plain and simple fact.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, papa al said:

... because more people [%] use motos than in the west.?

Correct. The icing on the cake comes from not wearing helmets.

Vietnam has less than half the death rate of Thailand, just as many scooters. 20% bigger population.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Lacessit

[NorthernRyland]

On 12/7/2023 at 9:06 PM, kwilco said:

One also needs to bear in mind the Thai culture of driving like a boat on a river.

a damning condemnation of Thai driving if I ever heard one.

[NorthernRyland]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:43 AM, kwilco said:

PS – “sneaking round the corner” i=s not a complete description.

 

If they drive like boats then it makes sense he didn't break and just floated in to the road and in to oncoming traffic. Maybe he should sell his boat and learn how to drive a car.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

If they drive like boats then it makes sense he didn't break and just floated in to the road and in to oncoming traffic. Maybe he should sell his boat and learn how to drive a car.

I can still remember an Egyptian guy who rolled a Land Rover on a gravel road going to a mine site from Port Hedland. He blew a tyre, and stamped on the brake, instead of letting the vehicle roll out after taking his foot off the accelerator. Had a grazed face and a sprained wrist.

I was with a Scottish mining engineer when the vehicle wreck was brought back to the port. Turning to me, he said: " I've always thought it's a mistake to give them cars, when we've only just finished teaching them how to ride bicycles".

I sometimes wonder how many Thais know what to do, when a tyre blows out at speed.

[seajae]

we were almost in accidents with motorbikes twice yesterday, both times it was an idiot rider that didnt bother to look and almost smashed into us, thing is it happens virtually everytime we are on the road. Unfortunately many thais switch off their thinking when they get in a car or on a bike, for some reason bike riders (and some car drivers) seem to think they can do as they please and road regulations etc do not apply to them, they can go through red lights, turn across the front of you when you are going straight ahead, come around corners without looking, pull out onto the road without checking and allowing young kids to ride bikes and of course ignore stop signs/lines, thai thinking leaves a lot to be desired as does their abilities on ther road

Edited December 9, 2023 by seajae

[quake]

40 minutes ago, seajae said:

Unfortunately many thais switch off their thinking when they get in a car or on a bike 

 

Never on in the first place for most.

[NorthernRyland]

3 hours ago, seajae said:

Unfortunately many thais switch off their thinking when they get in a car or on a bike,

 

I think some of these people have a poorly functioning prefrontal cortex. They simply can not control their urge to go as fast as possible and never stop. Any normal person can see the danger involved and can control their emotions enough to slow down and take their time making proper judgments.

[OneMoreFarang]

One big is that many Thai drivers and riders just don’t know how to ride and drive properly.
When I ride my bike, I often hear motorcycle riders complaining about car drivers. But the drivers often do nothing wrong. The bike riders just don’t know the rules and think they are right.
That happens so often that I consider it just normal in Thailand. TiT.
 

[theblether]

On 12/8/2023 at 2:40 AM, Lacessit said:

I drive between Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai regularly. For 12 years, I have seen Thai drivers do the most stupid things. Not isolated instances, these are routine occurrences. Running red lights, overtaking up crests and on blind curves, texting while driving, assuming right of way. IME, most Thai drivers seem to think mirrors are for applying makeup, or squeezing pimples. 80% of the motorists on two wheels are not wearing helmets, and some even remove their rear vision mirrors.

 

When I first started driving in Thailand, I got my Thai scooter license on the strength of an Australian car license, a 200 baht medical certificate, and being able to identify the colors of a traffic light.

 

Subsequently, I got my Australian motorcycle license. The written test was 40 questions, split evenly between road laws, and motorcycle driving skills. The pass mark was 35/40. If one failed, re-apply in one months' time.

The practical test consisted of 15 minutes checking skills such as slow riding, an obstacle course, braking from a specified speed within a specified distance, etc. Put one foot on the ground during the tests, you flunked.

 

It's a serious offense in Australia to drive without a license. 6 month's jail for a second time. Here, 200 baht papers over everything.

 

If you want to talk about racism, consider this: Any accident dispute between a foreigner and a Thai which is taken to the police will almost automatically be resolved in favor of the Thai, irrespective of who is at fault. If I am a racist, why would I be with my Thai GF for nearly ten years?

 

The link between poor driver education/training and high death and injury rates on the roads is indisputable, regardless of which country it is. IMO anyone who thinks otherwise is an imbecile.

 

 

 

"assuming right of way"

 

What are the rules of right of way in Thailand? The vast majority of farangs don't know what they are. 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, theblether said:

 

"assuming right of way"

 

What are the rules of right of way in Thailand? The vast majority of farangs don't know what they are. 

AFAIK there are no rules. Give way to vehicles on the right in countries that drive on the left is the norm.

Who knows how they manage in Myanmar, where vehicles travel on the RHS with a mixture of left hand and right hand vehicles.

[papa al]

Kinda looks like everyone

in the vid

knew each other.

[kwilco]

9 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

If they drive like boats then it makes sense he didn't break and just floated in to the road and in to oncoming traffic. Maybe he should sell his boat and learn how to drive a car.

You're beginning to understand! If you realise this then driving in Thailand will make sense - they know it but you don't

Edited December 9, 2023 by kwilco

[kwilco]

On 12/9/2023 at 7:42 AM, NorthernRyland said:

If they drive like boats then it makes sense he didn't break and just floated in to the road and in to oncoming traffic. Maybe he should sell his boat and learn how to drive a car.

You mean like you do?

[kwilco]

21 hours ago, theblether said:

 

"assuming right of way"

 

What are the rules of right of way in Thailand? The vast majority of farangs don't know what they are. 

This is true if you drove in France in the 1960s and 70s you would apreciate the situation. In Thailand the base rule is that there is priority from the left. This again like being in a boat is engrained in Thai driving culture.

most Westerners know nothing about rules of the road even in their own country they just learn by rote for their test and that's it - they don't understand that that is the "right" way and everyone else isn't the "wrong" way - they need to understand and adapt to driving in a foreign country. Rather than  a home test colonialism they should show some understanding of what is going on instead of resorting to racist cliches.

[theblether]

On 12/9/2023 at 3:49 PM, Lacessit said:

AFAIK there are no rules. Give way to vehicles on the right in countries that drive on the left is the norm.

Who knows how they manage in Myanmar, where vehicles travel on the RHS with a mixture of left hand and right hand vehicles.

 

There are rules of right of way. Too many foreigners don't know what they are and crack up when they infringe the rules, even though they are in the wrong. 

[theblether]

22 hours ago, kwilco said:

This is true if you drove in France in the 1960s and 70s you would apreciate the situation. In Thailand the base rule is that there is priority from the left. This again like being in a boat is engrained in Thai driving culture.

most Westerners know nothing about rules of the road even in their own country they just learn by rote for their test and that's it - they don't understand that that is the "right" way and everyone else isn't the "wrong" way - they need to understand and adapt to driving in a foreign country. Rather than  a home test colonialism they should show some understanding of what is going on instead of resorting to racist cliches.

 

I like your "boat" analogy. One thing that used to drive me nuts was why it took Thais so long to turn left. So I did a bizarre thing - I asked a Thai.............

 

"Why do you take so long to turn left?" And I received and answer so logical that I was embarrassed I hadn't thought of it myself. 

 

"Every Thai person knows that a stupid motorcyclist will try to undertake you when you slow to turn left, because at some time in the past we have been that stupid motorcyclist. So we are cautious as we expect a collision on the passenger side." 

 

Logical, and it is a common sight on Thai roads. 

[theblether]

Another right of way issue. Motorcyclists should not be hogging the main carriageway. They are obliged to keep to the left. You'll see Thais crack up with foreigners who think they are entitled to dominate the carriageway on their Honda Click. 

 

 

[Woof999]

On 12/7/2023 at 7:19 PM, kwilco said:

THe reason that so much rubbish is posted on this thread is that people are just incapable of even understanding what thy are looking at.

 

Exactly what is your point? From what you write it seems you think that the overall bike riding standard in Thailand is no worse than pretty much anywhere in the world, that accidents happen and we should accept it, that there is no problem and everyone should just carry on as is and that anyone highlighting what appears to be a HUGE local issue is being racist.

 

Yes you can see bad riding in pretty much every country in the world. However, the frequency that it happens in Thailand is shocking and certainly much worse than any of the 4 other countries I've lived in long term. As I live in Thailand, highlighting an issue that needlessly claims thousands of lives every month should be a good thing and not spotlighted as a negative by someone looking to be offended when there is none to be taken.

[NorthernRyland]

54 minutes ago, theblether said:

Logical, and it is a common sight on Thai roads. 

It's also an indication of a total lack of rules and discipline. Seems everyone has given up long ago on having rules that people follow.

[theblether]

58 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

It's also an indication of a total lack of rules and discipline. Seems everyone has given up long ago on having rules that people follow.

 

 No it's not. It's experienced people taking into account the high risk of accident. 

[NorthernRyland]

26 minutes ago, theblether said:

 

 No it's not. It's experienced people taking into account the high risk of accident. 

yes but they're doing that because they can't control other bad drivers. If everyone followed the rules there would be no need for this.