Bye bye Thailand, thanks for nothing!

[CygnusX1]

1 minute ago, Prubangboy said:

Yeah, the word for that is resident. Specifically, tax resident.

 

Just like where you come from, just like the world over.

 

As to the rest of it, it is self-evident that people who live here 52 weeks a year use more services than 2 week visitors.

But the point is that, even though they might now be tax residents, they’re still bringing in all the money they’re spending from overseas (small percent of those actually earning money in Thailand excepted).

 

It’s clearly self-evident that someone living in Thailand the whole year is using far more services than a 2 week tourist, but they’re also transferring far more money into Thailand.

 

[Prubangboy]

Just now, CygnusX1 said:

they’re still bringing in all the money they’re spending from overseas

 

I gotta dig up the post from the guy who did the math on expat remittances and found them to be about .01% of the Thai economy.

 

This is like a wino outside of a casino saying he's keeping the doors open there because he bought his pint at the 7/11 out front.

[newnative]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:32 AM, Celsius said:

 

What idiot makes money in Thailand?

 

LOL

Me

[Celsius]

6 minutes ago, newnative said:

Me

 

Yes. 

 

15,000 baht a month. 

[Jingthing]

44 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Yeah I don't know about the Us of Whatever.

 

My posts are based upon the amount of soapdodgers in this thread (and the dozens of similar ones) crying about a tax law that will have zero effect on them !

I do agree there is no need to panic or to begin the process of leaving Thailand because of tax, but there is no way that you or even "experts" know how this is going to shake out yet. We'll need to wait. 

 

As far as how Thailand Revenue is going to deal with US or UK taxation specifics, keep in mind if they start going after expat foreign sourced "income" they'll need to be dealing with taxation peculiarities of every nation in the world that has tax resident expats here. How will they cope? My guess is that they won't even try to have the bandwidth for that. Which might mean they'll leave us alone OR it might mean they'll interpret income without any regard to home country details and force us to try to prove differently. Or something in between. I definitely wouldn't go for a Thai tax ID number yet unless or until they demand that we do. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Jingthing

[mokwit]

3 hours ago, spectre324 said:

I have been here for 24 years and never been bothered about "taxes" 

The interpretation in place for 38 years that allowed you to not be bothered for 24 years will change Jan 1 next year.

[Prubangboy]

27 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

How will they cope? My guess is that they won't even try to have the bandwidth for that. Which might mean they'll leave us alone  

Agreed, it cost money to chase down these tiny amounts. A haircut on remittances is very unlikely to happen.

[Des1]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:16 AM, Prubangboy said:

Tax treaty general concepts:

 

1) Funds have to be remitted to Thailand to be taxable. If I make money back home and keep it back home, no Thai tax on it. You are not being taxed on all world-wide income, only what's transferred. No diff from England.

 

2) You get a credit for your Thai taxes owed equal to the amount of tax you paid on that income back home.

 

Almost always, the tax amount you pay back home will amount to a credit greater than any tax you might owe in Thailand (means: you owe zero). For instance, pensions in the UK are already taxed as income. 

 

3) It's progressive. Stupid Stickman said that 35% was the flat rate. You have to use up a lot of lower tax rate bands before you hit 35%. No one reading this will.  

 

Here's a list of the countries that have double taxation treaties with Thailand:

 

 

https://www.imidaily.com/program-updates/thailands-tax-tightening-on-foreign-income-raises-questions-about-implementation/

finally, some common sense applied to this story, for those who actually want to take the time to read.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Prubangboy said:

I gotta dig up the post from the guy who did the math on expat remittances and found them to be about .01% of the Thai economy.

 

This is like a wino outside of a casino saying he's keeping the doors open there because he bought his pint at the 7/11 out front.

Maybe true.  But 300K Expats bring in and/or spending an average of 1 Million Baht a year - is worth 300 Billion Baht. That number equates to 6 million Chinese tourists - who spend an average of 50K Baht on a trip to Thailand. 

[Prubangboy]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Maybe true.   

You gotta stop thinking of the $$ impact you have on the nice local people adjacent to you and think in terms of the macroeconomic.

 

An expat is much less spendy than an average tourist. Few are springing for the 150 baht durian ice cream cone, but yeah, we're big, big consumers of bottled water.

 

When I think of it, my landlord is a fellow New Yorker, 80% of the dining I do is in non-Thai owned places.

 

My biggest $$ contribution to Thai people is 1) Grab Cabs 2)Weed.

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

I gotta dig up the post from the guy who did the math on expat remittances and found them to be about .01% of the Thai economy.

 

This is like a wino outside of a casino saying he's keeping the doors open there because he bought his pint at the 7/11 out front.

That was me, in this life and in previous lives also.

 

The answer was not 0.01%, the correct answer was worst case, in total, 4% of GDP or about USD 26 bill. 

[Jingthing]

I want to add that I think there are some things we can do now to be defensive about this.

For example, I am transferring large amounts of money before the end of this year that will mean no transfers needed in 2024. Also I think it would be crazy to buy a condo here starting next year until much more is known. 

 

 

Cheers.

[khunPer]

On 12/8/2023 at 3:41 AM, ujayujay said:

What is your opinion?

If your home country has a Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) with Thailand, you are most likely not taxed on your already taxed retirement pension from your home country. However, if your home country's income taxation is lower that Thailand's and retirement pensions can be taxed in both states – read your DTA – you might need to pay the difference.

By the way: I would love to pay income tax of my retirement pension in Thailand, instead of my home country...

[Presnock]

5 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

In the UK, the pension is classed as income (I suspect the same in most countries) and is taxed accordingly.

How exactly can/would "Thainess" come up with a different meaning ?

 

FWIW income from abroad was always supposed to be taxed, this is not a new thing "Thainess" has come up with.

 

However tax was only applicable if it was earnt in the same year it was brought into Thailand.

 

again, so far the only written thing I understand is "earned income" - as a holder of a retirement O, I can't work or receive any benefits for doing anythinig here...no wages, salaries or other "earned" benefits. so I am not worried what 1 Jan will bring.  ButTIT and they can change their interpretation of any agreement made by former governments.

[Ralf001]

Just now, Presnock said:

again, so far the only written thing I understand is "earned income" - as a holder of a retirement O, I can't work or receive any benefits for doing anythinig here...no wages, salaries or other "earned" benefits. so I am not worried what 1 Jan will bring.  ButTIT and they can change their interpretation of any agreement made by former governments.

Do you collect a pension ?

 

If yes..... thats an income.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

again, so far the only written thing I understand is "earned income" - as a holder of a retirement O, I can't work or receive any benefits for doing anythinig here...no wages, salaries or other "earned" benefits. so I am not worried what 1 Jan will bring.  ButTIT and they can change their interpretation of any agreement made by former governments.

Earned income is a category, not a single item where money is earned through employment.

[Presnock]

28 minutes ago, khunPer said:

If your home country has a Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) with Thailand, you are most likely not taxed on your already taxed retirement pension from your home country. However, if your home country's income taxation is lower that Thailand's and retirement pensions can be taxed in both states – read your DTA – you might need to pay the difference.

By the way: I would love to pay income tax of my retirement pension in Thailand, instead of my home country...

no matter what, from the USA anything taxed by the Thais  on retirement pension will only lower your USA tax bill for that year or reading the tax laws, could lower your tax the following year.  You still have to pay one or the other and don't have a choice on the USA portion of your pension.

[Presnock]

4 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

Do you collect a pension ?

 

If yes..... thats an income.

you need to read the definition of "earned" income.  A US govt pension is not considered earned income.  The Tax agreement says that Thailand could still tax me too but that the US IRS would then adjust my US tax bill for the same amount taken by the Thais.  Only the hassle of filing that crap, no loss of money.

[Presnock]

5 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

Why all this worry about thai tax. If your home country have a tax treaty with Thailand you should not worry. Tax treaties is to avoid double tax. Following the rules your total tax will not increase, for many it will reduce.

how can it reduce? tax office in home country will only reimburse that money taken by the Thais

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Presnock said:

you need to read the definition of "earned" income.  A US govt pension is not considered earned income.  The Tax agreement says that Thailand could still tax me too but that the US IRS would then adjust my US tax bill for the same amount taken by the Thais.  Only the hassle of filing that crap, no loss of money.

Read the second para down in the link below and the Thai definition of Income, which may well nit be the same as the US version, oddly enough!

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

[Presnock]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Earned income is a category, not a single item where money is earned through employment.

There are other monies that are considered earned income - read the definition of same.  Or to a US govt webb site and ask what is included in "earned" income.  Easy to find and understand.

[Presnock]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

There are other monies that are considered earned income - read the definition of same.  Or to a US govt webb site and ask what is included in "earned" income.  Easy to find and understand.

Also some pensions are considered earned income, federal pensions not so.

[Ralf001]

10 minutes ago, Presnock said:

you need to read the definition of "earned" income.  A US govt pension is not considered earned income.  The Tax agreement says that Thailand could still tax me too but that the US IRS would then adjust my US tax bill for the same amount taken by the Thais.  Only the hassle of filing that crap, no loss of money.

 

Ahh right.

You are a seppo, not soapdodger.

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, Presnock said:

There are other monies that are considered earned income - read the definition of same.  Or to a US govt webb site and ask what is included in "earned" income.  Easy to find and understand.

I understand what the western definition is of earned income in tax law but we're in Thailand, not the USA. I suggest you read Sherrings or Mazars

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-income-tax-rates-thailand.html

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Services/Tax

[NanLaew]

On 12/8/2023 at 2:41 AM, ujayujay said:

There will be an exodus of expats with the result that in certain places the property market will collapse and the purchasing power of those remaining will be reduced by the amount of tax they pay!

ROFLMAO...thanks!

[newnative]

5 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

Yes. 

 

15,000 baht a month. 

Huh?

[scottiejohn]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:32 AM, Celsius said:

 

What idiot makes money in Thailand?

 

LOL

Idiots might not make money but those sane people with their head screwed on can and do so!

Edited December 9, 2023 by scottiejohn

[Justincase]

This directive is issued to ALL countries by our lords and masters the Banks - check it out for yourselves

Follow the money ...

[Justincase]

This directive is issued to ALL countries by our lords and masters the Central Banks ( BIS )- check it out for yourselves

Follow the money ...

[Caldera]

Every time an "expat exodus" and a subsequent "collapse" has been predicted, neither did happen.

 

I really can't take this nonsensical fear-mongering seriously anymore.

 

Yes, some more people will get taxed. Yes, for some of them that will be reason enough to leave. No, it won't amount to a mass exodus. No, it won't lead to any kind of collapse of parts of the Thai economy. Duh.