New tax era in Thailand begins as Revenue now shares data with 138 countries within the OECD

[Jenkins9039]

7 hours ago, J Branche said:

 

The Thai Government should KNOW this.  Wealthy People generally hire very smart, capable CPA's Tax Professionals to structure their clients finances so as they pay the LEAST amount possible but still be Compliant with Thai Tax laws.  The Revenue Department will need to spend XX money to hire skilled Tax Professionals, New Software for Many Many foreign income residents and spend Untold hours inputting the data.

Will the Revenue Department make Any money in return?  This is Not just Thailand, Every country that makes tax changes to the Wealthy soon learns the Wealthy are Very good at paying the least amount required.

It's basically rather easy to re-structure yourself to reduce your tax overheads within Thailand, if you own a vehicle(s) or property that's your main costs, then everything else can be structured or reduced onshore by changing somethings.

 

For example we bough the land behind us late last year just after they announced these changes to grow fruit and veg, chickens (eggs) etc which reduces another massive on-going cost. 

 

As i understand that saves us 450 THB a day for the household food costs (excluding meat/fish). = 164,250 on average per year, at a cost of 1,000,000 THB within 6yrs (slightly over) the 1,000,000 THB sunk costs then become paid off. at the same time due to the cost(s) of living and factoring the tax bracket 35% we'd have been hit by (again savings) - the tax on that 450 x 365 = 165,000 roughly = 57,750 in taxes. 

 

We are pretty much entirely green (water, power, heating/cooling) so I imagine collectively on-shore we'd be spending roughly 120,000 THB a month going forward - which should be tax free due to the deductions (children, parents, etc).

 

So they've lost 'income tax' (technically savings) for the wife.

They've lost VAT (by offshoring)

They've lost local community fund flow (spending money into the community).

 

So their little jaunt has probably cost them 1.5-2m THB in direct-indirect taxes in our household.

 

X That across the country (i know many people in the HNW doing the same) and it will be a nasty shock for them.

 

 

[CashMoon]

53 minutes ago, Bobthegimp said:

 

From what I've read of the Thai tax code, yes. 

 

A source of income could be non taxable at home but fully exposed to Thai taxation.   Being Canadian, I think of our Canadian dividend and capital gains tax rules. Whilst not fully taxable in Canada, they are taxable in Thailand, minus taxes paid at home.  In effect, this is the Canadian government foregoing revenue (to encourage investment ) which the Thai government will then be treating as their windfall. 

 

It's crucial to understand your country's tax treaty with Thailand to see if you can:

A) restructure your income to reduce tax exposure

B) bail on Thailand for a more friendly regime

C) suck it up and pay the taxes to the Thai government.  

 

It seems that it would be much more logical to open a company in Labuan with 3% tax in order to avoid paying taxes of up to 35% in Thailand. Or Dubai with 9%.. 

To give an example, I opened a company in Labuan and paid 3% tax. Can they charge me the percentage tax difference when I transfer my earnings to Thailand? I'm talking about a 32% difference.
 

[Kinnock]

9 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes that is the case.  BUT - be careful - do not think that is it - and forget about it now.  We do not know if you will have to 'prove' that to the satisfaction of the Thai RD.  All they can 'see' at any time in the future, is that an Expat remitted XYZ Baht into Thailand in any given year/s - was it assessbale income/money is not something they get from bank records. So what happens if/when they ask you to 'clarify' why you did not lodge a tax return.  What is the 'required proof' as far as Thai RD requires?  So the answer is Yes - but it is not a get out of jail card.

I understand what you are saying, and for many people this will be the key issue, but I'm now retired and no longer have an income in my home country, so any funds I transfer from my 'home' bank account must have been earned before Jan 1st.

[Bobthegimp]

14 hours ago, CashMoon said:

To give an example, I opened a company in Labuan and paid 3% tax. Can they charge me the percentage tax difference when I transfer my earnings to Thailand? I'm talking about a 32% difference

 

Yes, unless that income is protected by a tax agreement, which is why I referred to Canada's favourable tax rates for Canadian dividends and capital gains being treated like a windfall for the Thai government.  

 

My income is straightforward: a pension that is taxed at source in Canada and protected by a dual taxation agreement with Thailand, so I shouldn't even be reading these threads. 

 

Things are far more complicated for entrepreneurial types (aren't they always?) who have income from sources that aren't subject to taxes abroad and are remitted to Thailand.  

[jerrymahoney]

23 hours ago, worrab said:

Then I am getting an inheritance payment fairly soon which is exempt from taxation. That amount is enough for us to live on quite comfortably. 

FYI:

 

Who is not liable to pay inheritance tax?

The following instances are exempt from paying(Thailand) inheritance tax:

 

Receiving inheritance with a value of not exceeding THB 100 million.

 

Being a legal spouse to the inheritance owner.

 

Receiving an inheritance from the owner who died before the date of the enforcement of the Inheritance Tax Act (1 February 2016).

 

A government agency or legal entity receiving inheritance for education, religious or public purposes.

 

Persons or international organisations under commitments between Thailand and the United Nations, or according to international laws or contracts or reciprocal arrangements with other countries.

 

https://thailand.acclime.com/guides/inheritance-tax/#part4

[worrab]

32 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

FYI:

 

Who is not liable to pay inheritance tax?

The following instances are exempt from paying(Thailand) inheritance tax:

 

Receiving inheritance with a value of not exceeding THB 100 million.

 

Being a legal spouse to the inheritance owner.

 

Receiving an inheritance from the owner who died before the date of the enforcement of the Inheritance Tax Act (1 February 2016).

 

A government agency or legal entity receiving inheritance for education, religious or public purposes.

 

Persons or international organisations under commitments between Thailand and the United Nations, or according to international laws or contracts or reciprocal arrangements with other countries.

 

https://thailand.acclime.com/guides/inheritance-tax/#part4

You are quoting from anyone who is receiving inheritance from within Thailand. 

 

My inhritance is coming from my late Mother's Estate in the UK and is NOT subject to being taxed by RD.  

 

The following statement comes from Carl Turner Financial  when I had discussions with him regarding tax issues. 

 

"Future inheritance. This is not taxable as income. Make sure you keep all the documents to hand in case you are asked. It makes sense to call your bank to inform them that you will send a lump sum which is from inheritance, so that the amount isn’t blocked until it is audited."

Edited January 10 by worrab
Extra wording

[jacko45k]

20 hours ago, sirineou said:

If you do it 45 days early , does it start 45 days earlier which would mean that you lose about a month or does it start when the current one expires?

Would you happen to know?  

Because if I would also like to do it as early as it is avowed, who knows what the Thai goverment will come up with in 45 days . 

It's called an Extension as it tags onto the end of your current permission of stay. 

 

The one that 'loses 'time' is doing the 90 day report early..... no big deal really.

[sirineou]

10 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

It's called an Extension as it tags onto the end of your current permission of stay. 

 

The one that 'loses 'time' is doing the 90 day report early..... no big deal really.

Believe it or not, the extension is not always for a full year as I found out the hard way.

My passport was expired during the year of my extension, so I had it renewed and happy go lucky I went to the IO to transfer my stamp   to the new passport. 

Mai dai (can't do) , i get from the IO

turns out that your extension expires with your passport now days.  So I learned a lesson and when it comes to Thailand I don't take anything for granted. So now i always ask.

 

Edited January 11 by sirineou

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Believe it or not, the extension is not always for a full year as I found out the hard way.

Yes, I am aware that the Extension cannot go beyond the passport validity. I have made a point of renewing a passport early, and soon after a new Extension, to stay away from that 'risk'.....

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Yes, I am aware that the Extension cannot go beyond the passport validity. I have made a point of renewing a passport early, and soon after a new Extension, to stay away from that 'risk'.....

I did not know that and I am an Fn genius and from conversations I had in this forum you would be  amazed how many others do not also know that . You would think the would tell you  at the IO when you do you extension  " Hey bucko , your passport expires in X months and so will your extension. " you would think that, but you will be wrong. In my case the probably did not say anything because they like me so much , they wanted to see me back early. Same ad my 4th grade teacher who liked me so much she kept me in the 4th and extra year.

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

You would think the would tell you  at the IO when you do you extension 

This is not really a nanny state..... you have to take care of  yourself. 'Someone' did not read the details on their Extension stamp! If in doubt, ask questions.....this board is a good resource on Visa stuff. 

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, worrab said:

You are quoting from anyone who is receiving inheritance from within Thailand. 

 

My inhritance is coming from my late Mother's Estate in the UK and is NOT subject to being taxed by RD.  

It doesn't say that. However, if it is less than 100 million baht, doesn't matter anyway.

 

But there are other opinions:

 

Relations Between Inheritance Tax and the New Thai Tax Law
 

Receiving Inheritance from Overseas and Bringing it to Thailand

 

Any individual holding Thai citizenship or a Thai resident residing for 180 days or more who receives a foreign-source inheritance and brings them into Thailand is subject to taxation under the new tax law.

 

In contrast, an individual who is not a Thai resident (residing 180 days or less), who receives a foreign-source inheritance and brings them into Thailand, is not subject to taxation under the new tax law.

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/relations-between-inheritance-tax-and-the-new-thai-tax-law/

Edited January 11 by jerrymahoney

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 hours ago, Kinnock said:

I understand what you are saying, and for many people this will be the key issue, but I'm now retired and no longer have an income in my home country, so any funds I transfer from my 'home' bank account must have been earned before Jan 1st.

In order to be able to 'prove' that in the future if Thai RD ask for details, may I suggest you download and print out those accounts - and put together in writing a financial statement. And then once a year do the same summary of all transfers you do make into Thailand - source accounts and details. It may never happen, but if it does, it is always best to be prepared.  Like wearing a helmet while riding a bike - you never know if or when it will be needed, so it is best to always wear it. 

[pattaya1234was]

Yesterday I received a notification from the bank in the UK, Barclays,  that is closing my account,  that I need to inform them about my Tax Residency status both in the UK and Thailand.

They state that the information they have about me suggests that I may be a tax resident of Thailand.They require Tax Identification numbers for both UK and Thailand. So Big brother is here!

As I am now no longer a customer of Barclays I do not feel obliged to give them any information. Any thoughts? 

[worrab]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

It doesn't say that. However, if it is less than 100 million baht, doesn't matter anyway.

 

But there are other opinions:

 

Relations Between Inheritance Tax and the New Thai Tax Law
 

Receiving Inheritance from Overseas and Bringing it to Thailand

 

Any individual holding Thai citizenship or a Thai resident residing for 180 days or more who receives a foreign-source inheritance and brings them into Thailand is subject to taxation under the new tax law.

 

In contrast, an individual who is not a Thai resident (residing 180 days or less), who receives a foreign-source inheritance and brings them into Thailand, is not subject to taxation under the new tax law.

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/relations-between-inheritance-tax-and-the-new-thai-tax-law/

It seems that Siam-Legal has one interpretation and Carl Turner Financial Success a different interpretation. Either way it will be under 100 million baht so as you rightly say, it will not matter.    

[jerrymahoney]

8 minutes ago, worrab said:

It seems that Siam-Legal has one interpretation and Carl Turner Financial Success a different interpretation. Either way it will be under 100 million baht so as you rightly say, it will not matter.    

Good. That makes things easy.

 

I was thinking if I had a more than 100 million baht inheritance, I would go spend 6+ months somewhere else and then bring the whole thing in tax free.

Edited January 11 by jerrymahoney

[homeseeker]

21 minutes ago, pattaya1234was said:

Yesterday I received a notification from the bank in the UK, Barclays,  that is closing my account,  that I need to inform them about my Tax Residency status both in the UK and Thailand.

They state that the information they have about me suggests that I may be a tax resident of Thailand.They require Tax Identification numbers for both UK and Thailand. So Big brother is here!

As I am now no longer a customer of Barclays I do not feel obliged to give them any information. Any thoughts? 

If you are no longer a customer you are in my view under no obligation to give them any information.

[pattaya1234was]

4 minutes ago, homeseeker said:

If you are no longer a customer you are in my view under no obligation to give them any information.

Thank you. 

[UKresonant]

On 1/8/2024 at 1:06 PM, bradiston said:

On 1/8/2024 at 1:06 PM, bradiston said:

As has been mentioned many times State and personal pensions are excluded from the UK/Thai DTA so potentially taxable....

Mentioned where?

More like it's not mentioned in the UK DTA, it does not have a specific article.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

e.g.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343190

(https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b05425fed915d1317445ed2/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf (Thailand) Note 4. Treaty does not include an article dealing with Non-Government pensions. Also, no relief for
State Pension or ‘trivial commutation lump sum’.)

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm332210

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343130

only has an article for government pensions it would seem 

"Article 19 Governmental Services...

(2) (a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State."

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040

DTA does have 

"Article 23 Elimination of Double Taxation.....

(3) In the case of Thailand, United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income."

Some are saying (can't remember who ) Thai RD won't insist on priority taxing rights under article 4. and it may be option as under article 23 and article 24.

Will have to wait and see

 

 

[jacob29]

On 1/10/2024 at 7:01 AM, roo860 said:

They have no access and will have no access to your own country bank account, not even your home bank account number etc. Not your Wise account either IMHO. 

I agree. They don't need access to see remittance coming into the country though, the sender details will be on the transfer. Will they bother to match these up, seems highly unlikely initially, but the information is readily available if they care to follow up.

[youngexpat]

my plan is to spend less than 180 days in country this year because i am bringing in funds to build a house and don't want to be bothered.

 

in subsequent years i will just bring cash in for local spending and use foreign credit cards for all travel hotels etc etc

 

i think atm withdrawals from offshore accounts are also going to be a big grey area

[youngexpat]

after reading the other thread it looks like the gift tax to your lady avoids having to bother with any remittance issues

[UKresonant]

19 hours ago, pattaya1234was said:

Yesterday I received a notification from the bank in the UK, Barclays,  that is closing my account,  that I need to inform them about my Tax Residency status both in the UK and Thailand.

They state that the information they have about me suggests that I may be a tax resident of Thailand.They require Tax Identification numbers for both UK and Thailand. So Big brother is here!

As I am now no longer a customer of Barclays I do not feel obliged to give them any information. Any thoughts? 

If they have closed your account already no need to give them the info .

If they have not closed the account they need the info to record and allow share your account balance at 31st December with Thailand RD if requested so they are CRS compliant, but you have to declare Thai Tax residence to Barclays for that to happen I think.

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, youngexpat said:

my plan is to spend less than 180 days in country this year because i am bringing in funds to build a house and don't want to be bothered.

 

in subsequent years i will just bring cash in for local spending and use foreign credit cards for all travel hotels etc etc

 

i think atm withdrawals from offshore accounts are also going to be a big grey area

Can I just make an observation on what you wrote? It seems like two extremes to build a house here yet refuse to live here for more than 180 days per year, and, withdraw money from offshore accounts using an ATM! My advice to you is to wait and see what the RD has to say in the coming months because I don't believe the outcome will be nearly as bad as some people think. Thailand wants the money that foreigners bring into the country, more than it needs the 5% or 10% tax that it could earn from taxing transfers.

[UKresonant]

4 minutes ago, youngexpat said:

after reading the other thread it looks like the gift tax to your lady avoids having to bother with any remittance issues

I think you would have to have a plausible amount coming in to live on , or already in, as a base to field the question and not be suspect of working in Thailand with no work permit (unless you work there anyway of course). Other than that it would seem to be very useful.

[UKresonant]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Can I just make an observation on what you wrote? It seems like two extremes to build a house here yet refuse to live here for more than 180 days per year, and, withdraw money from offshore accounts using an ATM! My advice to you is to wait and see what the RD has to say in the coming months because I don't believe the outcome will be nearly as bad as some people think. Thailand wants the money that foreigners bring into the country, more than it needs the 5% or 10% tax that it could earn from taxing transfers.

If they tax transfers like that they will destroy the place, that would only be an option at about perhaps 0.1 or even max 0.25% (like the banks charge as a deposit fee) instead of the 300 Baht tourist Tax perhaps.

In most cases it's probably safer to be non-resident when doing large transactions anywhere. It was my view in 2018 and still is, (from a UK perspective).  

[youngexpat]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Can I just make an observation on what you wrote? It seems like two extremes to build a house here yet refuse to live here for more than 180 days per year, and, withdraw money from offshore accounts using an ATM! My advice to you is to wait and see what the RD has to say in the coming months because I don't believe the outcome will be nearly as bad as some people think. Thailand wants the money that foreigners bring into the country, more than it needs the 5% or 10% tax that it could earn from taxing transfers.

i'm abroad currently and don't anticipate returning that quickly. for this fiscal year i'm content to stay on the sidelines and see how it plays out. it just means doing some local slow travel when i return, which i am happy to do.

12 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

I think you would have to have a plausible amount coming in to live on , or already in, as a base to field the question and not be suspect of working in Thailand with no work permit (unless you work there anyway of course). Other than that it would seem to be very useful.

 I have an elite visa so no need to show income to Immigration

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, UKresonant said:

If they tax transfers like that they will destroy the place, that would only be an option at about perhaps 0.1 or even max 0.25% (like the banks charge as a deposit fee) instead of the 300 Baht tourist Tax perhaps.

In most cases it's probably safer to be non-resident when doing large transactions anywhere. It was my view in 2018 and still is, (from a UK perspective).  

I just can't see a majority of average expats being taxed in any meaningful way, certainly not retirees. There are around 300,000 westerns living in Thailand and over 4 million foreigners of all nationalities living here. The 300,000 import funds from overseas which help support local economies and aid consumer spending and the government knows this. The property market in place such as Phuket are dependent on foreigners and the industry would scream if it thought people were going to be taxed on transfers to buy property because it would kill the market stone dead. 

[UKresonant]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I just can't see a majority of average expats being taxed in any meaningful way, certainly not retirees. There are around 300,000 westerns living in Thailand and over 4 million foreigners of all nationalities living here. The 300,000 import funds from overseas which help support local economies and aid consumer spending and the government knows this. The property market in place such as Phuket are dependent on foreigners and the industry would scream if it thought people were going to be taxed on transfers to buy property because it would kill the market stone dead. 

I still hope for that.

The concern over taxes will likely make many be more frugal on the expenditure plans in Thailand for now, with a slight offset of VAT spend for a wee while, of course there will still be a multitude out there that are oblivious to these changes (that have not read your very useful guide). RD were not much interested in retirees before, so not sure, fingers crossed.  There is still a mountain of old info on the web, and likely will be there for a while.

 

p.s. Dad has been conforming to the 179 days or less routine for about 2 decades now ( apart from one flight change I think) . His December January trip is the only one where he is not wasting much of his UK Golf membership, because of the weather. 

[pattaya1234was]

3 hours ago, UKresonant said:

If they have closed your account already no need to give them the info .

If they have not closed the account they need the info to record and allow share your account balance at 31st December with Thailand RD if requested so they are CRS compliant, but you have to declare Thai Tax residence to Barclays for that to happen I think.

Thank you. They say that if I do not reply they will give the Thai RD any information they have about me. On 31st Dec. my balance was 150 pounds; a week later 0 pounds. Nothing very interesting there for any RD !