1 in 4 vehicles registered in December in Thailand was a fully electric

[Bandersnatch]

8 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

The reality is neither Lithium mining or the Oil Industry is particularly environmental friendly.

 

 

Shocking image of baby penguin contaminated by Lithium at Lithium salt flats in Australia

 

 

 

 

[Bday Prang]

21 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

 

 

Another EV hater demonstrating his ignorance, by thinking that Lithium and Cobalt are the same!

 

The bottom picture is supposed to represent Artisanal cobalt mining in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

 

Even if the meme creator and the poster actually knew this they would still be wrong as most new EVs use lithium iron phosphate for cathode chemistry with no Cobalt. 

 

Cobalt is however used in fossil fuel refining as Cobalt helps to clean sulfur impurities that interfere with the refining of liquid fuels 

 

 

 

 

Settle down grandad and have a cup of milky tea   I am not an EV hater  I just choose not to drive one,     Although Its not unusual for people of your ilk to turn on those who choose not to align themselves with your ideologies , and respond with a bit of venom   very very predictable indeed.

You are another holier than thou type who should read the info in the link to amnesty international I provided earlier

[Pib]

56 minutes ago, Robert Paulson said:

There are no 3 cylinders in that list. This is a Thailand Honda. 
 

it says right on their website it gets 55mpg. And like I said, maybe that’s driving 80mph. If we assume that, and I’m driving 50mph, the numbers shake out just about right with the 30% or so savings driving that much slower 50mph vs 80mph (see previous post). 
https://www.honda.co.th/models-compare-result?model_id=39&grade_id=48&back_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.honda.co.th%2Fcityhatchback

I really don’t care if anyone believes me I guess. I’d be willing to put up a sizeable about in PayPal however and go drive 100km down highway 4 if anyone wants to make a bet on it. 

 

OK, going to the webpage you have it says a Honda City 1.0L (3 cyl) gets 23.3km/L (this is probably a "combined" city and highway speed rating since city and highway fuel efficiency is not reported anywhere that I could see on the website) which when converted to miles per gallon (US) does indeed equate to 55mpg. 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

47 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

 

Lets cherry pick the extremes of the spectrum to fit our rhetoric (both ends of the spectrum). 

 

The reality is neither Lithium mining or the Oil Industry is particularly environmental friendly.... Both are necessary and we cannot do without either... 

One maybe is less environmentally friendly than the other - but I'm not yet convinced which and there are a lot of studies on this, the issue is the bias and politicisation behind such studies.

 

We should instead be concentrating on how to 'clean up' the things we need instead of attempting to eradicate critical sources of energy and raw materials for our storage - we desperately need both hydrocarbon energy sources and batteries. 

 

The dichotomisation of the argument with the loudest most extreme voices weakens the discussion of the true solutions such as a need for carbon recapture technology.

I didn't cherry pick anything.  Simply google the largest mines/locations.   Then google 'lithium workers in XXXXXX'

 

Post the pic & source of pic.  Unlike the post I replied to, simply a meme with no info.  Those kids could be clearing hillside farmland to plant coffee beans for we know.

 

Agree, the petroleum industry at present is very necessary, for plastic bags if nothing else   Many products come from that industry besides petrol.  I'm not arguing or trying to dispute that.   But the constant false narrative that most of the lithium comes form child labor simply false ... IMHO  They simply wouldn't be able to keep up with demand, and just a silly narrative.

 

Besides, I have googled the images before use to show child lithium workers, and they were not, just pics of child laborers.

[KhunLA]

50 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

just like your photo's  simply pictures of people working.  Are you suggesting that lithium mining does not take place in third world countries, and that children are never involved ?  The following link from a lefty NGO  should make interesting reading for you

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/01/child-labour-behind-smart-phone-and-electric-car-batteries/

I think its only to be expected that most companies using lithium would use the cheapest source available, despite what they say

I am neither for or against the use of electric vehicles but I refuse to be emotionally blackmailed by the narrative that they will save the world 

You might want to actually read that article, 8 yrs old, and more about cobalt & phone battery production.   EV makers getting away from cobalt in most EV batteries.  Such as our EV, usin LFP battery technology.

 

But hey, never let the facts get in the way of a spin.

 

Of course you have not problem using cobalt in your phone & device batteries.

 

Hypocrisy - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.

[Bday Prang]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

You might want to actually read that article, 8 yrs old, and more about cobalt & phone battery production.   EV makers getting away from cobalt in most EV batteries.

 

Of course you have not problem using cobalt in your phone & device batteries.

 

Hypocrisy - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.

 I am fully aware of the definition of hypocrisy  but I  have no strong feelings either way regarding OIl lithium or cobalt etc I really don't care one way or the other to be honest. Unethical I may be but hardly hypocritical

My comment merely demonstrated the hypocrisy of others virtue signalling about their oh so ethical love of electric vehicles whilst conveniently ignoring a few valid facts that dispute their moral stance 

[Gweiloman]

25 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Settle down grandad and have a cup of milky tea   I am not an EV hater  I just choose not to drive one,     Although Its not unusual for people of your ilk to turn on those who choose not to align themselves with your ideologies , and respond with a bit of venom   very very predictable indeed.

You are another holier than thou type who should read the info in the link to amnesty international I provided earlier

You can of course choose not to drive an EV, that’s totally your prerogative. But posting the picture that you did implies that battery production is inhumane, exploits children etc which is total nonsense. 
 

Simple fact of the matter is that less or zero emissions in cities and urban areas are better for society as a whole. That doesn’t mean you should stop driving your ICEV but don’t criticise those who prefer to drive an EV.

[KhunLA]

People should verify what the post.  Fine example of the EV BS.  Acquaintance of mine posted this on his FB.  Of course I pointed out the true origin of the photo, and his was a false narrative.   Thanked me of course, but didn't remove the meme from his FB.

 

 

Origin of the photo:

[Bday Prang]

2 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

You can of course choose not to drive an EV, that’s totally your prerogative. But posting the picture that you did implies that battery production is inhumane, exploits children etc which is total nonsense. 
 

Simple fact of the matter is that less or zero emissions in cities and urban areas are better for society as a whole. That doesn’t mean you should stop driving your ICEV but don’t criticise those who prefer to drive an EV.

And the amnesty international report that I provided a link to  was pure nonsense too was it ? Likewise you are perfectly entitled to continue to drive your battery powered car but it does not entitle you to any moral high ground,   

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

My comment merely demonstrated the hypocrisy of others virtue signalling about their oh so ethical love of electric vehicles whilst conveniently ignoring a few valid facts that dispute their moral stance 

That wouldn't be any of the EV fanboys on this forum.   We enjoy the performance, the savings, not contributing to the local low level air & noise pollution.   None of us think we are saving the planet or trying to.   The planet doesn't need saving.

 

Your postings contradicts your expression of 'lack of opinion' ... IMHO

[Startmeup]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:59 PM, Gweiloman said:

I don’t know of a single EV owner in Thailand who bought an EV for the purpose of helping the environment. Do you? In my opinion, EV owners bought an EV because of the extremely low cost of travelling and maintenance, superior comfort, advanced technology and convenience of being able to charge at home, sometimes for free even. If in the process they are helping the environment, surely that must be a good thing ?

 

 

 Hmmmm

 

 

 

Detroit | Hertz plans to sell a third of its US electric vehicle fleet and reinvest in petrol-powered cars due to weak demand and high repair costs for its battery-powered options.

The sales of 20,000 EVs began last month and will continue over the course of this year, the rental giant said on Thursday US time in a regulatory filing. Hertz will record a non-cash charge in its fourth-quarter results of about $US245 million ($366 million) related to incremental net depreciation expense.


“The elevated costs associated with EVs persisted,” Hertz chief executive officer Stephen Scherr said in an interview. “Efforts to wrestle it down proved to be more challenging.”

Bloomberg Intelligence senior credit analyst Jody Lurie said: “Hertz recorded elevated costs from its EV fleet in 2H23 [the second half of 2023]. Management said the reversal could boost free cash flow by $US250-300 million in 2024-25 and improve corporate Ebitda [earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortisation], but we see the reshuffling as material growing pains.”

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, Startmeup said:

 

 

 Hmmmm

 

 

 

Detroit | Hertz plans to sell a third of its US electric vehicle fleet and reinvest in petrol-powered cars due to weak demand and high repair costs for its battery-powered options.

The sales of 20,000 EVs began last month and will continue over the course of this year, the rental giant said on Thursday US time in a regulatory filing. Hertz will record a non-cash charge in its fourth-quarter results of about $US245 million ($366 million) related to incremental net depreciation expense.


“The elevated costs associated with EVs persisted,” Hertz chief executive officer Stephen Scherr said in an interview. “Efforts to wrestle it down proved to be more challenging.”

Bloomberg Intelligence senior credit analyst Jody Lurie said: “Hertz recorded elevated costs from its EV fleet in 2H23 [the second half of 2023]. Management said the reversal could boost free cash flow by $US250-300 million in 2024-25 and improve corporate Ebitda [earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortisation], but we see the reshuffling as material growing pains.”

Try to keep up, as already a thread on that, and pretty dumb on Hertz part IMHO, until EV are the majority of vehicles on the road.   They should have took a lesson from China, with their EV graveyard of failed rental companies that have EVs rotting away

[Bandersnatch]

30 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

I am not an EV hater 

I just post EV Hating memes on EV discussions to demonstrate that EV haters know nothing about EVs. In case anyone was in any doubt.

 

47 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

I just choose not to drive one

Having demonstrated that I have no knowledge of or interest in EVs I still want to spend my time posting on EV discussions because I have nothing better to do with my time.

 

32 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Although Its not unusual for people of your ilk to turn on those who choose not to align themselves with your ideologies , and respond with a bit of venom   very very predictable indeed.

Let me paraphrase:

 

It’s not unusual for EV owners to get bored and a bit pissed off having to fact check all the EV Haters who post BS about EVs. 
 

39 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

You are another holier than thou type

I am the OP and if you’ve got nothing intelligent to post why don’t you leave this discussion to those of us who actually know what they’re talking about.

[Startmeup]

 

 

19 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Try to keep up, as already a thread on that, and pretty dumb on Hertz part IMHO, until EV are the majority of vehicles on the road.   They should have took a lesson from China, with their EV graveyard of failed rental companies that have EVs rotting away

I dont read all the threads on here.
Doesn't seem Dumb for a business to be boosting FCF by $250-300m a year which is directly related to EV ownership.

If costs/maintenance/depreciation were as low as people proclaimed then they wouldn't be flogging them off like this. I do think they make sense for some people though.

[Bday Prang]

10 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

I just post EV Hating memes on EV discussions to demonstrate that EV haters know nothing about EVs. In case anyone was in any doubt.

 

Having demonstrated that I have no knowledge of or interest in EVs I still want to spend my time posting on EV discussions because I have nothing better to do with my time.

 

Let me paraphrase:

 

It’s not unusual for EV owners to get bored and a bit pissed off having to fact check all the EV Haters who post BS about EVs. 
 

I am the OP and if you’ve got nothing intelligent to post why don’t you leave this discussion to those of us who actually know what they’re talking about.

Most intelligent debates consist of opposing points of view, I have merely highlighted an opposing point of view  I don't care if you are the OP I am quite entitled to call out your holier than thou hypocrisy,  Your venom illustrates a fragile state of mind,  

[KhunLA]

13 minutes ago, Startmeup said:

I dont read all the threads on here.
Doesn't seem Dumb for a business to be boosting FCF by $250-300m a year which is directly related to EV ownership.

If costs/maintenance/depreciation were as low as people proclaimed then they wouldn't be flogging them off like this. I do think they make sense for some people though.

I explained in my reply, why I thought the idea was dumb, and apparently correct.   

[Bandersnatch]

8 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Most intelligent debates consist of opposing points of view, I have merely highlighted an opposing point of view  I don't care if you are the OP I am quite entitled to call out your holier than thou hypocrisy,  Your venom illustrates a fragile state of mind,  

 

Happy to debate facts, but you have demonstrated an inability to grasp them.

 

 

[KhunLA]

34 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Most intelligent debates consist of opposing points of view, I have merely highlighted an opposing point of view  I don't care if you are the OP I am quite entitled to call out your holier than thou hypocrisy,  Your venom illustrates a fragile state of mind,  

Posting an unsourced meme is not 'intelligent debate' ...  as I suggested, those kids could be clearing farmland to plant coffee.   Meme good for comic relief, if funny, but that was just stupid.

 

You come off looking ridiculous, ignorant, bias, just another EV/CH hater ... IMHO

[Robert Paulson]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

 

OK, going to the webpage you have it says a Honda City 1.0L (3 cyl) gets 23.3km/L (this is probably a "combined" city and highway speed rating since city and highway fuel efficiency is not reported anywhere that I could see on the website) which when converted to miles per gallon (US) does indeed equate to 55mpg. 

 

 

 

 

And so… where are all the “no way you get 70mpg (max) highway boys now”?

look at you now as Pacino once said 

[Pib]

Just now, Robert Paulson said:

And so… where are all the “no way you get 70mpg (max) highway boys now”?

look at you now as Pacino once said 

70mpg is a long way from 55mpg.

 

[Pib]

Andrew,   

    This gets you closer to 70mgp.....25Km/L highway equates to almost 59mpg (US).  Need 11 more.  

 

https://www.zigwheels.co.th/en/new-cars/honda/city/rs#:~:text=Honda City RS Fuel Consumption,22 kmpl in the city.

[Bday Prang]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Posting an unsourced meme is not 'intelligent debate' ...  as I suggested, those kids could be clearing farmland to plant coffee.   Meme good for comic relief, if funny, but that was just stupid.

 

You come off looking ridiculous, ignorant, bias, just another EV/CH hater ... IMHO

I have already stated I am not an EV hater I have  no idea what "CH" means either so I very much doubt I hate that.  An unsourced meme was good enough to highlight that EV cars are not the green gift from the gods that many of their sanctimonious  advocates claim with an almost ecclesiastical zeal.  I then provided a link to an Amnesty International article which provided some evidence and insight to the somewhat unethical methods of lithium mining that makes many EV proponents rather uncomfortable.

Or judging by the nasty venomous insult filled responses  not only to me but to anyone criticising  EVs  very uncomfortable indeed, if not downright ashamed in reality.

 

Is there any real need for any of you to go on the attack ?  to such a degree,  when a quiet admission of complicit guilt regarding the plight of those unfortunate kids would have been much more appropriate........ IMHO.           I mean if all it takes to save the world is the death of a few kids in the short term  so be it  no skin off my nose

[Bday Prang]

1 hour ago, Bandersnatch said:

Happy to debate facts, but you have demonstrated an inability to grasp them.

But I have happily accepted the damage my current choice of vehicle causes,  I'm not overly bothered about the problems your choice of vehicle causes either now or in the future should they become the alternative that some wish for  and that would involve an awful lot of lithium .  It is you who are in denial and very touchy about the whole affair

[Bandersnatch]

3 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Are you suggesting that lithium mining does not take place in third world countries, and that children are never involved ?  The following link from a lefty NGO  should make interesting reading for you

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/01/child-labour-behind-smart-phone-and-electric-car-batteries/

 

Quotes an article, but doesn't bother to read it himself 

 

3 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Are you suggesting that lithium mining does not take place in third world countries, and that children are never involved

 

The article was about Cobalt and not Lithium.

 

  

3 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

You are another holier than thou type who should read the info in the link to amnesty international I provided earlier

 

 Yes, I read it, it's about Cobalt not Lithium, which I have explained..

 

3 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

Another EV hater demonstrating his ignorance, by thinking that Lithium and Cobalt are the same!

 

The bottom picture is supposed to represent Artisanal cobalt mining in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

 

Even if the meme creator and the poster actually knew this they would still be wrong as most new EVs use lithium iron phosphate for cathode chemistry with no Cobalt. 

 

Cobalt is however used in fossil fuel refining as Cobalt helps to clean sulfur impurities that interfere with the refining of liquid fuels 

 

[Bday Prang]

5 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Yes, I read it, it's about Cobalt not Lithium, which I have explained..

Or more specifically "Cobalt used in Lithium ion batteries"   same same but different, so how much of the article did you read?

[Bday Prang]

8 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Cobalt is however used in fossil fuel refining as Cobalt helps to clean sulfur impurities that interfere with the refining of liquid fuels

no concern of mine 

[Bday Prang]

12 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Quotes an article, but doesn't bother to read it himself 

 

 

The article was about Cobalt and not Lithium.

 

  

 

 Yes, I read it, it's about Cobalt not Lithium, which I have explained..

 

 

some more bad news for you

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

it will run out very soon too  probably not a bad thing either

[Bday Prang]

and another baseless uninformed article

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-02-13/the-horrors-behind-the-mining-industry-that-powers-your-life

What would greta thunberg say ?  I can only imagine deary deary me   the more I look the worse it gets, just like my mirror

[KannikaP]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:56 AM, retarius said:

if I were to buy anything I would buy a Toyota hybrid model

I see ads on TV (UK) for self-charging hybrids, and plug-in hybrids. What's the difference please.

If it's plug in, what does the petrol engine do? Take over when the battery is flat.

[Bandersnatch]

42 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

I see ads on TV (UK) for self-charging hybrids, and plug-in hybrids. What's the difference please.

If it's plug in, what does the petrol engine do? Take over when the battery is flat.

 

self-charging hybrid in Toyota Marketing speak “you don’t need to plug it in, it charges by magic”

PHEVs have a small battery which gives you about 70km of battery only range (some more some less) you plug it in at home and you can probably do most of your local trips on just the battery. On longer trips you can use petrol engine. 
 

Hybrid cars have a tiny battery of about 1kWh that can’t be plugged in. It is used in slow traffic or when the car is stationary.